We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[Bulbazak]

I can get nasty as town, too, though.

It's definitely a different sort of mean, and I'm probably more hurtful when I flip out as town.

I have yet to experience that, so it should be interesting.

[Plotinus]

I thought it was wgeurts that was calling us retarded, no Bro. Was I wrong?

[VysePresident]

IT'S ALMOST AS IF MAFIA IS A HEATED AND EMOTIONAL GAME SOMETIMES.

It's also as if this philosophy is trying to curtail a valid strategy to turn mafia into a robot/logic game.[/quote]

For what my 0.2's worth, I'm not very fond of fanning the flames for the sake of reactions. I think the person should generally be valued more than the game, y'know? (Which isn't to say I'll refuse to lynch someone just because they're melting down. Just that I try to avoid bringing them to that point where possible.)

Once again, just my two cents.

[kuribo]

I do value the person


Just that when I'm in a game with people, I don't see them as people. I see them as possibly my opposition. When you play an FPS shooter, do you feel bad for the players you kill? No because you cannot harm the player behind the avatar.

It's the same for me in-game. When we're playing, you're all your role and your avatar and your posts to me. After the game, or in MD or GD, you're people.

[T-Bone]

What kuribo is saying is get sexier avatars if you want him to feel bad about you.

[elusive]

I enjoy a little bit of Cruel Intentions so quite obviously my reaction is, "Stop whining\crying\get a backbone\etc". The problem is that there are some people on this site who enjoy dishing it out but don't like being on the receiving end and then start crying.

Maybe there needs to be a sub-forum for people who like to experience a multitude of emotions and are tried of the dominate narrative attempting to strait jacket them into a "fake nice" situation.

I also think if you're playing mafia then at some level you have a thing for sadism or masochism, otherwise you would go make cookies or something and blow rainbow bubbles at kats.

[Plotinus]

I think that’s a false dichotomy, elusive. I think it’s possible to get reactions from people, including intense ones, without crossing certain lines that are below the belt.

Also it is arguably playing better towards wincon to avoid crossing certain lines, because as scum you’re trying to get people mislynched, if they replace out then you ahve to start all over on the replacement, almost from scratch. if you’re town, you’re still trying to get people to react in some way that makes you think they’re town or scum and if they get themselves modkilled then that hurts your faction and if they replace out it can be hard to tell town replace out from scum replace out, and replace outs are bad for continuity.

Or to put it another way: the people who (mostly inadvertantly as far as i can tell) made me cry this game are not the people I’m upset at because even at the time I understood that they weren’t crossing any lines and i didn’t feel they were treating me unfairly. what Oranje Crush said to deathfisaro and me on day 6 didn’t make me cry or want to ragequit and yet it was very much below the belt, even before deathfisaro did what he did, I felt a line had been crossed that should ont have. and deathfisaro quit the site over it, quit playing mafia for good and i was sad to see him go because I liked him.

You don’t have to be nice. It’s okay to be snarky and snarly and angry and growly. But there’s a whole lot of terrain between “i buddy everybody as town” and toxic shit that gets in the way of multiple people’s enjoyment of a game.

[elusive]

I actually don't remember what happened in this game since there were a couple of things (and I wasn't involved in any of them). I guess from my POV its basically if you start own it and don't complain about it.

The game has a wincon, some people play because they are logical others because they enjoy psychological games or a mix of things. If you're really really sensitive, find another game or join the newbie queue as they keep things safe there.

[Voidedmafia]

You guys were mean to the newbie, he got offended and flipped out, and then everyone ganged up on him saying stuff like "fuck you" or "you're an asshole" but then some of those same people (kuribo) mentioned that they have their own personal issues with other phrases that would make them flip out. What a great double standard there is.

I had no problem with him being offended by it; if he's offended, that's his choice, as I personally wouldn't be offended if someone called me a retard (in my mind, it's simply another word for stupid, with no extra connotations). However, I was only mean-spirited when his decision led to outing himself and his Role PM in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the game, and as far as I remember I kept my derision and scorn purely for his reaction to it, not for being insulted. I have no sympathy for people who take being offended so far as ruin the experience of everyone else around him or her who might be playing together with said person, especially if these others hadn't actually done anything to him or had tried to be supportive of him.

If he had just said he was offended and replaced out, and done nothing else to damage the gamestate, I would be wholly sympathetic. He did not, therefore my sympathy only extends to the implied slights involved with being called a retard. That's not to say I agree that saying the word in general is okay, although like I said I'm not going to be offended if you call me one. I'm just not going to say he was in the right in any way for his reaction, and I feel my stance would be the same even if I was in his shoes.

Just that when I'm in a game with people, I don't see them as people. I see them as possibly my opposition. When you play an FPS shooter, do you feel bad for the players you kill? No because you cannot harm the player behind the avatar.

At least not physically.

[Muffin]

So ableism is okay on mafiascum but sexism/racism/transphobia/whatever else is not.

Got it.

[Shakira Confirmed]

Just want to say, I used to work with kids with down syndrome a bit and my cousin has it. They are awesome bundles of life.
However, when someone uses the word retarded, 99% of the time they are not talking down or insulting that entire set of the human species. To call someone that uses that word a hater of all mentally challenged people is a little out there.

It's not a smart word to use because offending people generally isn't smart, and I don't use it, but people are really hypersensitive about it imo. Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, I was following the game. Seemed like a trainwreck, but an enjoyable trainwreck. I was pretty sure Brantz was mafia so I'm glad I got that right.

[Voidedmafia]

So ableism is okay on mafiascum but sexism/racism/transphobia/whatever else is not.

Got it.

Did I fucking say that? Don't fucking put words in my mouth.

I

SAID

I,

personally

, do not care nor mind if someone told

me, myself, and no one else

I was a retard.

Just

myself. Do I personally not entirely see the problem with the word? I will admit perhaps I do, though whether or not my childhood had any influence on that I cannot say. But that doesn't mean I don't understand how it is and has been used to offend and personally insult others, and I don't care to see it used on others. I simply don't mind if you call me that because it doesn't affect nor hurt me.

[wgeurts]

I thought it was wgeurts that was calling us retarded, no Bro. Was I wrong?

I did?
Are you sure that wasn't bro.

[wgeurts]

At the worst I rhetorically asked "are you dumb" or used the word "fuck" but I haven't called anyone retarded.

[Plotinus]

I thought it was wgeurts that was calling us retarded, no Bro. Was I wrong?

I did?
Are you sure that wasn't bro.

I couldn’t tell because you were in a hydra and that bit wasn’t signed. I’ll take your word for it, though. I’m sorry I got the two of you confused, then. Sorry for being inexplicably mad at you then!

[wgeurts]

Makes sense then, no problem.

[Plotinus]

@wgeurts, since this misunderstanding was the reason I all but skipped you in the “say nice things about everyone” post, I want to say that it was nice playing with you and that I liked the phrases you used (crumpets, fudge), and I hope to play with you again sometime.

[vonflare]

I enjoyed the game, for the most part. It was fun cheering BBmolla on at the endish.

We prob could have won if vyse hadn't died, but that's because our faction was blatantly more powerful than the other scum factions.

All in all an interesting concept and interesting game, but it could have been rules-lawyered a bit better (traitor vs townie endgame) (force-replace at deadline) (what happens when you accidentally flip living scum)

[Bulbazak]

@Mods: Can you make our PT public so that we can share it? I'm sure the rest of the game would be interested in our thought process.

[BRantz]

I would like to appologize to both BC and Plot about the last day, my real life became very hectic and the game suffered because of it. Thank you Not_Mafia for being willing to replace me in that situation, and I am sorry Cuttlefish for making you have to do so. This game was a lot of fun, and there were many twists that were interesting.

I pushed Vonflare so hard because I was hoping that you guys would target me early on because of it. That all kind of got screwed with when I had to use some of my psuedocides in the early game though. Good game everyone.

[Plotinus]

I hope real life gets better for you, Brantz. Thanks for coming back to let us know what happened.

[BRantz]

Also, the only reason you lost this game is because it made zero sense for my ability to be mafia connected at the end plot. Your analysis and summation of the game over the last few days of it was fantastic, and you deserved to win completely. Things are starting to slow back down, so I should be back to playing soonish, and as Vyse said at some point, I would be honored to hydra with you. I hope you win the scummies you are up for it was a brilliant performance.

[Plotinus]

Thank you, that means a lot. I had no idea how I was doing at the time. I knew I was doing my best but a lot of the time it felt like i was just talking to myself and I could tell I wasn’t convinving people so I lost confidence. I’d never been scumread before this game, and that was difficult, but i l earned a lot from the experience.

It’d be fun to hydra sometime.

my playstyle takes forever, though, 2-3 games is my limit. I think i spent 16 hours doing all those plusses and minuses for bulbasaur commonwealth’s iso during night 6. but it worked: i correctly townread a slot i had been scumreading before doing that and i’m getting better at using it to help me get reads so i have to keep doing it. it’s relaxing, anyway.

[VysePresident]

I would like to appologize to both BC and Plot about the last day, my real life became very hectic and the game suffered because of it. Thank you Not_Mafia for being willing to replace me in that situation, and I am sorry Cuttlefish for making you have to do so. This game was a lot of fun, and there were many twists that were interesting.

I pushed Vonflare so hard because I was hoping that you guys would target me early on because of it. That all kind of got screwed with when I had to use some of my psuedocides in the early game though. Good game everyone.

Yeah, I kinda figured that was your strategy after I got the spoilers.

The thing is, nobody actually seriously worried me in the early game all that much, with the possible exception of Copper. (Who I was fairly comfortable going into a 1v1 with.) I wanted to use the kills to take care of players I wasn't comfortable with in early game, which was anyone who wasn't in my list of people I could manipulate or use to some degree. In retrospect, I wish I'd gone with my first instinct to target Narnian. Things might have played out a little differently then.

(Somebody brought up a Newbie game where he was relatively active & loud as Town. I'd actually seen that one before, when I was considering replacing into the slot, and I figured Narnian was either a PR playing coy, or scum in this game due to the difference in his playstyle. Once he claimed so easily, that really should have been a big neon warning for me, but I was too busy figuring out how I was going to tackle Copper at that point.)

I was scumreading you hard, and felt you were an easy lynch at that point anyway, up until the stupid suicider thing threw me for a loop. Besides, while I don't like to go out of my way for WIFOM kills, I figured I'd leave you alone in favor of taking out other useful targets that were more likely to be misread.

[VysePresident]

@Plot - It's kinda the same for me, except I've learned to stick with two games. (Preferably one, up until I've gotten familiar with it.)

I think I'm at my best when I'm borderline to obsessing over a game. I get to know the thread almost by memory, and can generally get a pretty good idea of how people think. I used to have a really good track record for finding scum, back on my homesite. (It helped a lot that I knew everyone there pretty well, though, and played a bunch of games with mostly the same people.) I'm still learning some of the ropes here, though.