STEVEN UNIVERSE MAFIA - GAME OVER

[Reasonably Rational]

RR written a post about how Constantine is not scum. What do you think about that?

I've read through his case and it's his opinion that the slot is town. The problem is he can't see scum doing the things Hermit did but he also can't see town doing those things. So RR feels that the slot is town. I feel the slot is scum.

Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I feel the slot was played poorly for town, and that scum would have taken the extra effort required to not play the slot terribly.

-Cerb

[grapes]

To me, you case read like you didn't like my questions because you couldn't tell what I was getting out of them or where I was going. I can tell you I didn't ask just to ask. I've already explained to Ricastle that I don't post just to post. So if I asked someone a question, there was a reason. It may have looked like I just dropped the line of questioning or something, but I did get something from it that I'm not always going to explain. I'm just going to say that how a person responds to your question, how they answer it or ignore it, can say quite a bit about their mindset.

I have a null-scum read on you. I don't automatically assume you are town just because you are a double voter. You also were resistant to Reasonably Rational when they were trying to see how both your and Vezok's double voting abilities worked. If you are town, why not help town understand how it works.

Frogger is a town read for me. He was very forth-coming about his vote moving ability and his posts about it have felt genuine.

Farside is also a town read. She is involved and scum hunting.

Your first point is inarguable because it's true. And it's not a terrible way to scumhunt. But I've seen you ask things like "how do you scumhunt" or "who didn't join an alliance." "did anyone take the quiz" etc. Questions that that don't press very hard if at all. And in the case of the first question which you asked to beer, which is an easily manipulated or null answer however he decided to give it, and when he answered you responded with something like "oh okay thanks" which, ironically was called out by frogger. (I'm having trouble seeing both of you and frogger being scum together as a result of both of your slots softly OMGUSing eachother day 1, but is a bit more likely now that ika is gone, and all of a sudden you're WKing each other, both flipping your reads miraculously and imo a bit unnaturally? Admittedly the WKing is coming a lot more loudly and strong from frogger than it is from you, though.) And I'd like to see him lynched before you if given the choice.

Floating along asking stuff just makes my funny bone tingle because while, yea both alignments can do it, it's probably one of the easiest ways for scum to lay low and keep their story straight. This is why I've been wanting to press you and see what's happening with you. Does that make a bit more sense?

For example you're scum reading me, but only decide to bring it up once I ask. I find that kinda strange because don't you want your scum reads to get lynched? Why keep em to yourself? And you couldn't have developed that read recently because apparently it was about my defensiveness day 1. So...

As was brought up before, everything frogger has been forthcoming about with his role would have been something that would have been easily seen eventually anyway, so, it's pretty much null. And yea the fact that he could of just not allied I guess. But that seems like just as good a way to stick out or get people asking questions IMO as well.

BUT does you allegedly thinking that my double vote is somehow imbalanced now become alleviated somewhat with the knowledge that frogger is somewhat a pseudo-doublevoter? Or is that just something that you don't think should be accounted for?

I think farside is town as well. But for other reasons. Being involved and scumhunting kinda applies to half(sadly not more) of the players alive and is a bit insulting to her scumgame. Have you seen far's scumgame?

[grapes]

The Hermit
I was thinking that maybe was just not a good player or maybe off with his play. His nuking his PT could just be a dumb townie move. I know I made those as well. I kinda played it off as such. What really got me concern about Hermit is his naked vote on NC. He never mention NC in any previous posts as far I can tell, he never said why , and has not mention or push for a NC Vote, After I started to look at his naked vote I went through the whole nuke incident again but without the blinders on. He has yet to admit he was wrong and admit his actions were bad, Yes TW shouldn't of claimed vig but nuking them and than getting them vigged is not town at all.
So yeah the Hermit has to die

VOTE: The Hermit

There's a lot of hedging in this post for my liking.

Also not admitting you were wrong kinda boils down to personality/pride and isn't really a scumtell.

Don't really so much mind the niccage vote because I think there's a chance he's scum.

Also, have there not been any other naked votes insofar this game fuzz, why are you just zeroing in on this particular one?

[grapes]

Just read up from yesterday and.. I wanna interact with someone.

Grapes, you're so sure of your Skybird read, and you told me not to be the vote police, but maybe you could just.. tell us where you're going with the Skybird vote? Is it a wagon or not? Is a it a super secret gambit? You can just say that you're trying to get Skybird lynched, I don't know why you got all defensive when I asked about it.

I'd love to interact max and had tried to a few days ago. Not sure what happened.

But this is a weird way to do it...When my vote is on someone it's because I want them lynched.

I think I've been kinda thinking you're a bit more scummy today because you've been less involved than day 1(hypocrite ik) and that you've been kinda hard defending all my scumreads.

And that's an alarm bell not because I think OMG YOU MUST BE SCUM TOGETHER or anything like that. But because when you do so it's because 'genuine' or something else I just don't quite follow for whatever reason. And that's making me think we're staring at this stagnated thread through different lenses some times.

But I get what you're trying to say anyway, though. You want me to compromise on a lynch.

I also think out of everyone here I should be able to be on a vanity wagon because in doing so I'm the only one who isn't actively avoiding vca or hindering the progression of the game because while you forget I've been parking on skybird I've also been sitting on the very viable frogger wagon. Which is also endorsed by mastin who's a stump, so it technically should have like 3 votes.

UNVOTE: skybird

most likely voting cage after a vote count

[grapes]

I'll wait for Boo to catch up to try to get a better read on that slot, but Flum was super meh. Grapes, you were allied with Flum, right? What did you think of him?

Any subtle glimpses of town that possessed me to ask for an ally with him have long since disappeared.

I think once bookitty starts to get involved her alignment will be pretty easy to figure out for me, though. So I'm not all too preoccupied with that slot atm.

[Fro99er]

@grapes so we see eye to eye on nic cage?

[Trench Warfare]

I might be moving over to Replace In tomorrow morning. I need to do my homework, double check everything and look through his ISO. Logically, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that case on the surface.

~Titus

[vezokpiraka]

More votes on niccage please

[Skybird]

Your first point is inarguable because it's true. And it's not a terrible way to scumhunt. But I've seen you ask things like "how do you scumhunt" or "who didn't join an alliance." "did anyone take the quiz" etc. Questions that that don't press very hard if at all. And in the case of the first question which you asked to beer, which is an easily manipulated or null answer however he decided to give it, and when he answered you responded with something like "oh okay thanks" which, ironically was called out by frogger. (I'm having trouble seeing both of you and frogger being scum together as a result of both of your slots softly OMGUSing eachother day 1, but is a bit more likely now that ika is gone, and all of a sudden you're WKing each other, both flipping your reads miraculously and imo a bit unnaturally? Admittedly the WKing is coming a lot more loudly and strong from frogger than it is from you, though.) And I'd like to see him lynched before you if given the choice.

I feel like you aren't following the game very closely. I explained why I dropped the scum hunt thing with Beer already. (post 516) He had said he looked at underlying motivations to see if someone was town or scum. In practically the very next post he stated that it was silly to assign town or scum motivations to posts. This sounded like a direct contradiction to the way he said he scum hunted. That is why I asked him about it because I thought I caught him in a set up for himself to explain away scummy sounding posts in the future. His reply to me showed me that wasn't the case and so I dropped it.

"Who didn't join an alliance?" - I think as time goes on looking at this and the related question of who allied with whom could show something to help find scum. For example, if Frog didn't ally with anyone for the first three days I would be pushing him for an answer to why he wasn't. Also, as I explained in an earlier post, looking to see who ignores my open questions and who picks up on them tells me something. In this case it didn't tell me much because no one chose to answer.

"Who took the quiz?" - I'm not allowed to post anything except strictly game related posts? That would be boring if you think that. I bet you can go through everyone's ISO and find posts that aren't game related.

Floating along asking stuff just makes my funny bone tingle because while, yea both alignments can do it, it's probably one of the easiest ways for scum to lay low and keep their story straight. This is why I've been wanting to press you and see what's happening with you. Does that make a bit more sense?

Again, I'm not a high volume poster. I'm used to being scum read for that. I don't have any problem with you pushing me but I really don't know how to explain myself against the floating along accusation.

For example you're scum reading me, but only decide to bring it up once I ask. I find that kinda strange because don't you want your scum reads to get lynched? Why keep em to yourself? And you couldn't have developed that read recently because apparently it was about my defensiveness day 1. So...

As was brought up before, everything frogger has been forthcoming about with his role would have been something that would have been easily seen eventually anyway, so, it's pretty much null. And yea the fact that he could of just not allied I guess. But that seems like just as good a way to stick out or get people asking questions IMO as well.

BUT does you allegedly thinking that my double vote is somehow imbalanced now become alleviated somewhat with the knowledge that frogger is somewhat a pseudo-doublevoter? Or is that just something that you don't think should be accounted for?

You are not a top scum read to me. I even listed you as null-scum, not just as scum. I usually focus on the players that are standing out as scum the most to me and try to figure out if my read is good or if they are really town who look scummy for any number of reasons.

You do bring up a good point about Frog's sorta double vote. Does it totally balance you? Not really. People could refuse to ally with him and then his double vote doesn't happen. You don't appear to have any constraints on your double vote except for not being able to vote for the same person. I don't see your constraint being as restrictive as Frog's.

I think farside is town as well. But for other reasons. Being involved and scumhunting kinda applies to half(sadly not more) of the players alive and is a bit insulting to her scumgame. Have you seen far's scumgame?

Sorry you don't like my reasons but it is what it is. I am in no way insulting farside.

[farside22]

It's the same mantra repeatedly with nothing added.
Just because you sit there pointing to the same player saying the same thing doesn't make you town or look genuine.

Way to not really actually address my post, not sure why you decided to quote it. The slap down of my reach out is noted.

Tell me how I'm wrong.

[farside22]

Maybe it's me but when I see long winded responses and it isn't really necessary to be long winded, it looks like trying hard to me.

[Skybird]

RR written a post about how Constantine is not scum. What do you think about that?

I've read through his case and it's his opinion that the slot is town. The problem is he can't see scum doing the things Hermit did but he also can't see town doing those things. So RR feels that the slot is town. I feel the slot is scum.

Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I feel the slot was played poorly for town, and that scum would have taken the extra effort required to not play the slot terribly.

-Cerb

I do see what you are saying. But scum make stupid mistakes too. Is it possible that this slot is 3rd party? That might explain why he feels all over the place.

[Skybird]

Farside, is 2385 meant for me?

[farside22]

Farside, is 2385 meant for me?

No it was in regard to the post grapes made here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7089083

[Fro99er]

@NicCage - as requested

Spoiler: Nic on Sonic

I'm also caught up. I think Max, mastina, Sonic X, vezo and farside are all probably town.

Sonic is town (unexplained)

As far as Ricastle goes, I'm not a fan. Going after beer is lame and easy, if he's town he'd be the number 1 thing scum would latch onto, and I thought his following push on Sonic X was really awful I have no idea why Ricastle voted for him and I can't imagine how there is some kind of PoE that could take place between Sonic and beer. I'm baffled at how a townread could come out of that.

Yeah you know what I think he's scum. VOTE: Ricastle

Attack ricastle for push on sonic

I think Max, mastina, Sonic X, vezo and farside are all probably town.

I have no idea why you were townreading Sonic X at that stage and I haven't seen you make it clear yet.

I get it, I reread his ISO later and kind of fell off on that. I don't know at this moment if I think he's leaning scum, but he's not feeling town for me at all anymore. Initially I felt like he was town because his early reads post, I think it's 156 off the top of my head, mirrored mine at the time. I also felt like his reaction to ricastle's push was genuine, and I interpreted the fake daykill as a reaction test. But when I reread those things felt a lot weaker than they did on first impression. I'll work on him tomorrow.

So someone pressures you on your unexplained sonic town read and you explain now but back off (because you know your reasons weren't very good???)

No no, sorry. I wasn't scumreading ricastle for attacking beer, I was scumreading him for attacking sonic and beer and saying with certainty that there was at least one scum among the two. Which isn't that awful, but when he called it PoE it bothered me a bit. I never thought beer was town, I still don't, I just felt that he would make an easy target. It wasn't really a defining part of my read, it was an additional accusation. Actually, I decided to vote ricastle while making that post. I was really more interested in your slot, in part because I felt like the ricastle townread from titus was unjustified. I wanted to talk about it, but that line of questioning petered out with titus not commenting and just asking what PoE meant, so I figured I'd work on something else and wait for you to show up.

I wanna add grapes to my townlist, and Marquis and Ricastle are leaning town for me now. Sonic is null until I reread him. Nothing else has changed. I'll follow-up this tomorrow with anything I'm suspicious of.

Same post as prior, admit scumreading ricastle for attacking sonic and beer, yet sonic is null now.

Cheeto, I'm working on that now. My vote isn't hurting anything sitting there on Ricastle. I'm sure he doesn't mind.

NicCage, what changed your Ricastle scumread to a slight townread?

Well it seemed like a fair amount of people felt like he was townish enough, so I figured maybe I was overreacting to his tone or style or whatever you want to call it. It seemed overconfident, but that's not necessarily a bad thing D1. He's really not doing anything particularly wrong, and I felt like he was being genuine enough in chasing his scumreads. Plus I'm not townreading Sonic anymore so his attack on him bothered me less.

Not townreading sonic (but didn't say scumreading). Post 933 was null, this is 958 and sonic didn't post between 933 and 958, so I'll assume this not townreading means null.

I felt like Sonic's criticism of Beer's attack on them was legitimate, and that was that they were basically just saying "this post is bad" with a lot more words.

"Sonic's criticism of Beer was legit"

NicCage, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these players:

Fro99er
Sonic X
TunnelWarriors
Reasonably Rational
St Constantine the Hermit
TheFuzzylogic99

Sonic X is hard for me to sort out. I'm starting to change my mind on him a bit, and I'm thinking maybe he isn't scum after all and is just obnoxious and sloppy. I don't really see the scum motivation for trying to gladiate on D2, or even at the end of D1, since that would get him into a lot of hot water. I'm assuming that role makes it a vote off between him and his target.

Sonic isn't scum, but town now (but where did you ever scum read him?).

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I don't get it. Town can be all over the place too.

[Fro99er]

Was that at me?

[farside22]

Frogger your case on nic looks to be associated with sonic

[Fro99er]

farside, that's part of my case, and yes, that part is an association.

Basically - nic townreads sonic unexplained and defends him from ricastle. But he doesn't really have any good reasons. As soon as he's asked for those reasons to townread sonic, he backs off hard townreading his buddy for BS reasons and throws him in the null pile (yet still agrees with a read of Sonic's later). Then D2 when asked about sonic, he says sonic's no longer scummy (???) and more town now because of his gladiate thing.

But I've given other reasons for Nic too. See 2168, 2353

[vezokpiraka]

I've rarely saw scum defend their parteners in such an overt way.

[farside22]

I think nic cage is scum too. I want to double check something about him

[farside22]

I just reread nicccage and tbh he seems a bit lost more then scummy.
My biggest issue is that he isn't pushing anyone as scum and just riding on the low end and for me that catches my eye.
In some cases he tries to engage with others but with the questions he asked thus far they don't go anywhere and read pretty flat.

[Skybird]

I don't get it. Town can be all over the place too.

I just don't see you doing enough towny stuff. It's more like you are only interested in staying alive instead of trying to find scum.

[Ricastle]

Nic is town. This is coming from his Ally.

[Skybird]

Ricastle, is this coming from stuff in your PT?