Mini 1701 - Modified Werewolf 13er

[Doctor Who]

BBT, how does Woody missing something imply he's read the game? I missed all of last night's posts because I was sleeping. Does that imply I've read them? No. I'm doing that now. I agree with you that he should have gone back to reqd what he missed, but why is that poor scum play and not poor town play? Why do you already seem to be scumhunting on the Woody wagon (Bulb, redff, absta) like you already know he'll flip town? You're also pushing Woody for not commenting on the Haschel wagon. I don't believe I commented on it either (I could be wrong). If I didn't, does that make me scum? Do you think Haschel is scum?

It was the wording. It made me feel like he had been reading the game but 'didn't notice' the votes piling up on Haschel. It's poor scum play because of the subtle changes in his story and the pure convenience of his stance on it.

Am I not allowed to look at who joined the wagon and why? Should I ignore all other people until Woody is lynched? Why are you firing loaded questions at me?

I'm pushing Woody for both his ignoring of the wagon until prompted and his reactions afterwards.

I don't know if Haschel is scum, he has barely posted anything.

^This, see bolded. If you are pushing Woody for ignoring the wagon, shouldn't you push redFF even harder for ignoring the votes on Woody's wagon?

VOTE: BBT

[RedCoyote]

I really do not understand the BBT hate here. I'll need to go back over HC's case against him.

[Doctor Who]

gree. I have no tolerance for players like he is playing in this game. Absta is ww or town. Instead of the latter, I believe him to he town because of the linez of thinking he posts. The conversation with kmd was fishy but It does not prove his alignment to be

Interesting that
1) you go out of your way to identify the only two possibilities for absta (not rocket science)
2) you list him as ww first (people generally put their best guess first)
3)"Instead of the latter" - the latter as you stated is town, so you essentially wrote "Instead of town, I believe him to be town"

I"m not sure what to make of it.

[Doctor Who]

VOTE: red ff ya I know I called him town

Maybe lazy wasn't the right word but mist of his posts are bandwagons/obvious things/low effort, especially recent ones. And his tone is just kind of suspicious

Up to this point, Banakai could use this reasoning to vote for himself. Timing is interesting as it happened just after two votes on Vinkah.

[Doctor Who]

Up to 350. Good night.

[Keyser Söze]

KS 226: Something about your WW push comes across as insincere here. This is too try hard.

If I could hear the thought-process of his 'possible scum' read it would aid my read on him.

Your posts don't always feel germane to the situation. I do not get the feeling that your arguments and points are delivered in a way that is scumhunting so much that it is you appearing to scumhunt. I've already pointed out what I've seen as some potential buddying from you, but now I'm getting this rush of overkill from you re: WW. It doesn't feel sincere and I wonder if this was the endgame all along (that you'd inevitably end up at the "WW is too easy" spot).

Fair points - I can see how you see my earnest scum-hunting is 'try hard pro-town'.

However, regarding the "WW push", I was highlighting how WoodyWoodpecker's actions were anti-town (I was not pushing whether he was scum-aligned). I made my conclusion of his alignment later.

[absta101]

Kmd and RC are looking better. I still think Boon is scummy, he's only using the truth-tell defence (as in, he's always playing like this as town and therefore he can't be scum) and I don't see him scum-hunting.
--

@RC

Very odd

for Boonskiies to not stick to his guns on his initial reads and instead cave the second BBT asked him to do so. It tells me that his reads did not have a lot of sincerity to them.

Then again, this is Boonskiies. I know that he likes to votehop and can turn on a dime.

Still, it's worth bringing up.

If it's normal for Boon to play like this as town, why did you say it was very odd? Also, shouldn't it be a null-tell on him from your perspective if he does this as town all the time? I don't see why you say it's worth bringing up considering this.

[Kmd4390]

Redcoyote's entire Boon stance is weird. It's like "he's town but I don't like this but the thing I don't like makes him town but this is bad too. Bad but town. But still worth bringing up". It's like he's wishy washy when he discusses it, yet he sticks to the town read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up.

[Keyser Söze]

These help me to see who is flying under the radar. My replacement is still carrying me.

Spoiler: Updated Activity

Keyser Söze Jul 24, 12:57pm Jul 29, 05:26pm 0 days 5 hours 100
BlueBloodedToffee Jul 24, 12:31pm Jul 28, 01:09pm 1 day 9 hours 100
WoodyWoodpecker Jul 24, 12:30pm Jul 26, 07:17am 3 days 15 hours 77
Boonskiies Jul 25, 11:34pm Jul 29, 06:41pm 0 days 4 hours 68
absta101 Jul 24, 01:15pm Jul 28, 03:42pm 1 day 7 hours 56
redFF Jul 24, 02:10pm Jul 28, 08:44pm 1 day 2 hours 48
Bulbazoor Jul 24, 04:48pm Jul 28, 09:57pm 1 day 0 hours 43
Zoronos Jul 24, 01:27pm Jul 29, 12:45pm 0 days 10 hours 35 Aug 03 2015
Banakai Jul 24, 09:54pm Jul 29, 09:33pm 0 days 1 hour 27
Haschel Cedricson Jul 24, 12:52pm Jul 29, 09:37pm 0 days 1 hour 25
Kmd4390 Jul 24, 05:56pm Jul 29, 09:07pm 0 days 1 hour 23
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Shinobi Jul 24, 10:06am Jul 29, 12:59pm 0 days 9 hours 17
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinkah Jul 24, 12:41pm Jul 25, 07:01am 4 days 15 hours 8

TonyMontana Jul 24, 01:04pm Jul 28, 07:58am 1 day 14 hours 8

Doctor Who Jul 26, 01:13pm Jul 29, 08:49am 0 days 13 hours 7

RedCoyote Jul 24, 06:22pm Jul 29, 09:37pm 0 days 1 hour 3

@Doctor Who - what are your thoughts about the

low-activity

posters?

RedCoyote - I'd prefer him to see him scum-hunting in the-thick-of-the-action, reacting on the spot, instead of timed responses to events. I am not a fan of long periodic catch-up posts (possible sheeping tactic). However, RL may obviously restrict his online activity.
TonyMontana - he was the late joiner to our party, jumping on the Boonskiies-hate wagon - can I blame him? Was suspicious to see him focus purely on Boonskiies with his first scum-analysis thought. Need more input from him. He has hinted at reads, but not explained them.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, why does this being an open setup make Woody town? And your confidence isn't my issue. It's the fact that you were voting and pushing Woody, yet you seemed to think that three scum were voting him. It should be obvious why that's an issue.

It makes him likely to be town because I would expect scum have more sense than to claim VT.

I have explained this. I didn't like some of the votes on Woody wagon, correct. I was pushing Woody, correct. Now, I was happy pushing Woody as I thought he was scummy, but I wanted to investigate some of the votes on the wagon. I didn't like numerous votes, therefore I wanted to engage with those players to see if I could find out which votes I thought were scummy and which votes I had got the wrong end of the stick on. I couldn't vote all three of the people voting; obvious choice is to stay on the wagon until people have responded.

As well as this, when you vote somebody

before

they have responded to you it can effect not only their response, but the response of the other people you have questioned.

I don't believe you think I am arrogant enough to think I had caught all 3 scum voting for Woody; just because I dislike votes, that doesn't automatically make them scum. I'm concerned as to why you're loading your accusation in this way.

That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if the scum are ALL voting Woody, he's probably town. You seemed to believe this is the case, yet you stayed on Woody. Unvoting Woody there wouldn't show a lack of confidence like you seem to be implying. It would show basic logic. Even if you simply said "if I'm wrong about Woody, these votes look bad", it would show the same logic. But you were pushing the two together. I mean, maybe you thought someone was bussing but I didn't get that impression either.

Show me where I said all three scum were voting for Woody. Woody was still coming across as scummy and I was still happy to push his wagon whilst questioning other people.

It's not just presenting a bad case; it's the strawmanning and (perceived) intentional misinterpretations of other people's arguments. Your latter two sentences are fair points, though; I'll try to see if I can reread that section of the game tomorrow.

Can you show me where you think I am strawmanning (I'm not even sure I fully understand this term) and misrepping other people.

I disagree. When I see somebody do something incredibly stupid I tend to stop using capital letters and preface my post with "ahahaha". It's not an alignment thing at all and I am legitimately baffled that multiple people think it is.

This is different. We were talking about when people are annoyed, you're now talking about when someone does something stupid. Those are two different feelings that obviously elicit different responses.

I think it's fake because you attacked him for asking something that he absolutely was right to ask. He changed his stance on Woody based on a back-and-forth they had; that seems like a legitimate reason to change one's mind about a read.

I think you're misunderstanding why I attacked Absta. I did not attack Absta for asking anything; I attacked Absta for the way he approached the Woody wagon and his eventual jump onto it.

Townies force their reasoning all the time. Townies can tunnel, and once they go down that rabbit hole there can be a tendency to shoehorn in their suspects posts any way they can to bolster their theory. When somebody is forcing an argument, the question then becomes WHY are they doing it? Is it because they are looking for a case? Or is it because they are trying to make up a case from whole cloth?

We'll agree to disagree, the way he worded it certainly sounded like he scum read me because of it.

[Kmd4390]

Keyser, I'd be shocked to find out that RedCoyote is busy as a "tactic".

BBT, I'll read your post and respond when no one is in my face and looking over my shoulder and talking to me while I read and shit

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just think Red is town. The wagon's he's joined all made sense to me as a townie.

I don't get this read Boon.

Bulb, weak town on you.

I don't get this, according to your reasoning in your reads-list he should be a null read?

So when you're

town

you don't think and plan; when you're

scum

you think more and plan out your posting - I do not like this trust-tell.

It's not a trust tell and I really don't like the way you're trying to dress it up as one.

I will do my best to check in and vote as much as possible. I'm down with voting any of [Absta, RedFF, Bulbasaur] at the moment. I have a high degree of suspicion towards Tony and would like him to come back and answer the questions I asked earlier.
BBT has basically talked me out of Boon.

Zoro, do you think both Absta and Redff can be scum? If not, who do you think is more likely?

Can I interest you in a Tony wagon?

Basically boon and redff. I can understand some other wagons but they aren't screaming scum for me.

Boon for obvious reasons and I'll explain redff a little more when I get to a computer

Cool, would like explanations for both scum reads. What other wagons can you 'understand' and why?

Can you explain why you initially voted for absta101?

Sure, because I disliked his approach to the Woody wagon. I feel I have made this more than clear.

When you unvoted absta101, did you think absta101-redFF was town vs werewolf or town vs town? If

town vs werewolf

, did you want to put pressure on redFF? Are you now town-reading absta101 based purely on the possibilty of redFF being scum/town?

This flip-flop on absta101 concerns me - plus, the fact you were happy to leave absta101-redFF alone and then re-direct your focus on TonyMontana.

I unvoted because I didn't feel it was likely to be scum vs scum and I felt that redff had a higher chance of being scum than Absta. I would like some time to sort out Absta/redff and am therefore pursuing someone else who I think could be scum.

Well I'm phone posting so I can't give specifics, but his reads seem to move and shift too quickly with no explanation.

Do you think scum are likely to approach the game this way? If so, why?

Posting before backreading does not make one scum. In fact, if when you back read you re-read what was "current" you get more context and the benefit of reading things twice. Pushing a bullshit case is scummy.

Regarding redFF's premature L-1 on Woody, I'd argue that it is infinitely more scummy than posting before backreading. Now the kicker is that BBT recognized it too, and said that it was a bad jump on the wagon. Yet BBT (so far) isn't hunting redFF nearly as much. The BBT quote above is only part of a much larger post on many other topics.

Scum coming in late on a wagon and claiming they didn't know the vote count is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Firstly, what you spoilered was me explaining my position on Woody. The fact you spoilered it as an 'infatuation' shows that you're intending to scum read me because of it no matter what.

I don't get your back reading comment? Who is it referring to?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you are pushing Woody for ignoring the wagon, shouldn't you push redFF even harder for ignoring the votes on Woody's wagon?

VOTE: BBT

I'm sorry, did I suggest that redff was scum for voting and not realizing it placed Woody at L-1...I don't believe I did. What you're actually doing is using your own reasoning for why you think redff is scum and applying it to me and then thinking that your reasoning somehow contradicts my own reads. It doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid.

I still think Boon is scummy, he's only using the truth-tell defence
--

@RC

Very odd

for Boonskiies to not stick to his guns on his initial reads and instead cave the second BBT asked him to do so. It tells me that his reads did not have a lot of sincerity to them.

Then again, this is Boonskiies. I know that he likes to votehop and can turn on a dime.

Still, it's worth bringing up.

If it's normal for Boon to play like this as town, why did you say it was very odd? Also, shouldn't it be a null-tell on him from your perspective if he does this as town all the time? I don't see why you say it's worth bringing up considering this.

Boon is not using a trust tell, why are you addressing it like that?

Good question for RC though, I like that.

TonyMontana - he was the late joiner to our party, jumping on the Boonskiies-hate wagon - can I blame him? Was suspicious to see him focus purely on Boonskiies with his first scum-analysis thought. Need more input from him. He has hinted at reads, but not explained them.

Keyser, can I interest you in a Tony wagon?

[Bulbazoor]

gree. I have no tolerance for players like he is playing in this game. Absta is ww or town. Instead of the latter, I believe him to he town because of the linez of thinking he posts. The conversation with kmd was fishy but It does not prove his alignment to be

Interesting that
1) you go out of your way to identify the only two possibilities for absta (not rocket science)
2) you list him as ww first (people generally put their best guess first)
3)"Instead of the latter" - the latter as you stated is town, so you essentially wrote "Instead of town, I believe him to be town"

I"m not sure what to make of it.

That was a mistake. I thought I put ww as last. Sorry. I did not post the first because it was my guess. I did not post it in ant specific order.

[absta101]

@BBT - http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trust_Tell

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I know what a trust tell is, Boon is not doing that.

Trust tells are punishable by mod-kill, is that what you're trying to achieve?

[absta101]

I know what a trust tell is, Boon is not doing that.

Trust tells are punishable by mod-kill, is that what you're trying to achieve?

Lmao, I don't think he should be mod-killed. I didn't even read that far; my point is, he's using his meta as a defence for his scummy play. If you could give me a better word to describe it instead of trust-tell, that'd be great.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's exactly what you just said; a meta-tell. He is doing self-meta.

[Banakai]

Well I'm phone posting so I can't give specifics...

No worries; I'll wait for you to get to a computer.

I fundamentally disagree with your last sentence, by the way.

I assume this means you want more and why do you disagree?

[Zoronos]

@BBT
I have some questions outstanding to Tony. i want to hear him talk more first. Before going down the lynch road. My gut doesn't like the slot, but I prefer not to lynch based on gut bad feel

At the time I wrote that, I thought redFF and Absta could be scum together. I'm not as sure about that conclusion snymore.

[Banakai]

Well I really don't have much to say about boon except what has already been said by me and others, but he appears to be buddying with bbt and with a poor excuse for it too. Also looking at his ISO his last 6 posts were purely defensive and not even the logical kind.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I assume this means you want more and why do you disagree?

Nah, I'm cool; I find your lack of specifics perfectly acceptawhat the hell is wrong with you of course I want more.

Which reads were you referring to? Give me specific examples.

I disagree with your last sentence because I can see several scenarios where it would be helpful. I suspect we are looking at one of them right now.

[redFF]

im gonna get on this game over the weekend, maybe even later tn, been super lazy my b my b

[Banakai]

I assume this means you want more and why do you disagree?

Nah, I'm cool; I find your lack of specifics perfectly acceptawhat the hell is wrong with you of course I want more.

Which reads were you referring to? Give me specific examples.

I disagree with your last sentence because I can see several scenarios where it would be helpful. I suspect we are looking at one of them right now.

Well I understand that, as that is what qualifies as disagreeing with my statement. My question was asking what are these "several scenarious". and which do you suspect?