Mini 1701 - Modified Werewolf 13er

[Haschel Cedricson]

"Ooh, I see absta posted; I wonder what he's gonna say about Banakai!"

Oh, he ignored my request for some reason.

While we're at it, we need to hear from RedCoyote, TonyMontana, Zoronos, Doctor Who, and redFF.

For example, Person A is looking at a painting, person B says 'Oh, look at that dog in the corner' and person A responds with 'Oh yeah, I didn't notice that'. Person A was looking at the painting (reading) but didn't see the dog in the corner. Woody was reading but claims he didn't notice the wagon building up on Haschel. Crappy example but I hope it explains my point.

This is more like Person A climbs into an art gallery through the window and finds himself in the south wing of the gallery, and then Person B says "Hey, did you see that Impressionist painting in the Hall of the Old Masters?" and Person A replies with "No, I didn't notice that because I was never in the Hall of the Old Masters" and Person B says "Impossible! You can't walk to the south wing from the entrance without walking through the Hall of the Old Masters!"

[absta101]

lmao, i'll get to it tomorrow.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Get to it now. Do you think he's scum or not?

[Shinobi]

Vote Count

Boonskiies

(4):

absta101, Banakai, Tony Montana, Kmd4390

Banakai

(4):

Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote, Bulbazoor, Boonskiies

BlueBloodedToffee

(2):

Doctor Who, redff

absta101

(1):

Zoronos

Tony Montana

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting

(1):

Keyser Söze

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-07 13:30:00)

[Zoronos]

I have basically no opinion about Banakai. He doesn't have a ton of content, is a null and I haven't had time to work on sorting him.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright, before we start, I want everybody to reread this quote.

God damn I had a case written for boon but he just made a case for himself

Everybody keep this in mind as we go on this magical adventure through Bakanai's case on Boonskiies.

I now turn your attention to post 642, where Banakai makes the following explanation of what the "obvious reasons" he scumreads Boon. He says

Well I'm phone posting so I can't give specifics, but his reads seem to move and shift too quickly with no explanation. And he tries to defend himself basically by calling himself a VI and just declaring he is town. I also know that I would never self vote as town as I see no scenario where it would be helpful.

Now, Banakai claims he had a case on Boon that he was going to make in 491, but then didn't. What was the case? He wouldn't tell us. In fact, he told us very little; he kept stalling. But finally we get this quote from him. Excellent! Except there are a few problems with it. The last sentence? "I would never self-vote as town as I see no scenario where it would be helpful"? Allegedly Banakai already had a case on Boon BEFORE Boonskiies self-voted. So that doesn't bolster his claim that he ever had a case in the first place. The first sentence about Boonskiies' reads moving and shifting with no explanation? Sounds reasonable at first. But is it? He certainly took his time pointing out examples of this happening.

And the problem is the examples aren't very good.

The first reads Boonskiies gives are mild scumreads on Absta and Keyser. After rereading, he upgrades Keyser to town. Did this move shift with no explanation? No. Boon clearly states that there is a specific quote that changed his mind. It's not a very strong quote, but who cares? These are initial reads; Boon had literally just replaced into the game.

The next time Boon gives reads is in post 330, where his town-scum continuum goes Banakai > Keyser > Absta. This is entirely consistent with what Boon has said earlier. Banakai tries to twist this by saying that Keyser has gone from scum to town to neutral. When there are only three names being ranked, one by definition is going to fall into the neutral zone. This isn't a read shifting without explanation; it's a read that had already changed being put into a larger continuum. Keyser is then downgraded back to a scumread. An explanation is given. Boon clearly states that while giving pressure first made Keyser seem town, by doing it to everybody it starts to look scummy. This is reasonable stance to take, particularly on a player that was never a particularly high townread in the first place. Note that Banakai completely misrepresents this in post 690.

Next comes Boon's entire town-scum list. He gives explanations for most of the non-null people. Note that here Banakai misrepresents him; Banakai claims that "Keyser is [Boon's] ONLY scum read now", yet Bulb and Absta are both clearly labeled with the "lean scum" color. This is completely consistent with what Boon has previously said about Absta.

The next time Boon changes a read is when he moves his RC-read from null-town to scum. He gives reasons. Two posts later, he says that Woody seems scum but it could be a playstyle thing. Those are reasons.

In 360, Boon reaffirms his BBT and Banakai stances. No shifting reads here. In 365, he votes for RC. Again, no shifting read here.

In 457 Boon reposts a town-scum list. The only moves from the previous one are Woody, which he explained earlier, and RedCoyote, which he explained earlier. Two posts later he unvotes Keyser and votes Absta. Absta had consistently been presented as in Boon's top-two scumreads. Unvoting Keyser does not mean he's shifting on his scumread of Keyser. In fact, he specifically states that Keyser is only being "switched" with Absta. That's not an example of a shifting read.

In 470 Boon lists me as a townread, upgrading me from null-town. An explanation is given. And then Boon votes for himself.

Now, after this point Boon may very well shift his read on players with no explanation. But that doesn't matter for our purposes here; Banakai claims that the case he was going to make before Boon voted for himself centered around his reads "seem[ing] to move and shift too quickly with no explanation." Except that does not happen in the time period where he supposedly was writing this up! This is why it was like pulling teeth to get Banakai to say any specifics; there were no specifics to get so they had to be made up! He handwaves it away with the phrase "obvious reasons", ignores a direct question to elaborate, speaks as generally as he can in his eventual reply that he has to be prompted to give, gives a non-answer of "me and others have already said it" when asked for specifics, stalls YET AGAIN when asked for specifics, and then tries again with "Everything has already been said and I don't feel the need to go over every one of his posts." I have never seen anybody work so hard to avoid answering a question. And the only motive for that is because he's scum and doesn't have a real case. Oh sure, NOW he can claim that Boonskiies' claiming of VT is behind Banakai's vote, but remember, that cannot be applied to the original case Banakai claims to have had.

Finally, remember this?

I'd hardly call my read passionate/determined when haschel basically forced me to make a case

I didn't force him to make a case; I forced him to tell us the case that he claims he already had, and now he tries to twist it around like I'm the bad guy for doing so? He was voting Boonskiies for "obvious reasons" but now he's lukewarm to his entire read? Nonsense. This guy is absolutely our lynch today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod, can we get another prod on RC and Doctor Who?

RC is making me super nervous. I have never seen him this inactive.

How about some votes on Tony huh? That looks like a great wagon for someone who is completely flying under the radar whilst vote parking on one of the leading wagons with no reasoning at all.

[TonyMontana]

Prod response.

I'm on holiday, visiting my parents, will be back after the weekend.

[Banakai]

I already had posted the case before. Sure it sucked and was half finished but I posted it. I made this new one right before I posted it.

[Banakai]

The above is the reason I discarded the case. It was not a good case in the first place. Also you seem to be selectively reading my posts, as I also mentioned what I meant by the last quote. At the time of making the case I wouldn't call myself passionate. Afterwatds and looking back at it only then could you call it "passionate". When I made the case I wasn't even sure who I wanted to vote.

[Shinobi]

Prods sent.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I already had posted the case before. Sure it sucked and was half finished but I posted it. I made this new one right before I posted it.

And I had already pointed out that you HADN'T posted the case before. You posted a bunch of paraphrases with no analysis, hoping that everybody else would do the work for you. Incidentally, you're somehow managing to do even less with the latter half of 690; you quote Boonskiies 23 times while giving exactly two sentences of your own thoughts. At any rate, if you JUST made this new one, and you discarded the old one a long time ago, then why has your vote not moved at all in the intervening time?

The above is the reason I discarded the case. It was not a good case in the first place. Also you seem to be selectively reading my posts, as I also mentioned what I meant by the last quote. At the time of making the case I wouldn't call myself passionate. Afterwatds and looking back at it only then could you call it "passionate". When I made the case I wasn't even sure who I wanted to vote.

You quoted the wrong post when you explained what you meant, and since the post you were quoting was a joke post from Keyser I sort of glossed over it. At any rate, in that explanation your saying that when you made the case originally you were unsure, but now you're convinced. You also say you made the case you're passionate about right before you posted it, and therefore have discarded the original crappy one. Yet your phrasing suggests you haven't discarded it after all, and in fact believe in it more than ever? That doesn't make sense.

[RedCoyote]

BBT, how come you're not taking into account that I'm inactive sitewide? Especially after I've already brought that up this game.

I mean, I'm not saying this to score points, but you've used that against me multiple times now. I don't think it's fair to use it as a pro or a con, but don't use it as a con without doing your due diligence. I'm not avoiding this game specifically, and it's dishonest to imply that I am.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you have something useful to bring to the table while you're here RC because that would be much more helpful than excusing your inactivity.

[RedCoyote]

Well, since I'm 10 pages behind yet again... probably not.

Like I said, I'm not trying to score points. It shouldn't be a pro or a con, in my view. That said, I think at this point you're being dishonest to frame it as exclusively a con unless you can back that up with some evidence as to why it is.

I just noticed that when I clicked on the thread and wanted to say it immediately.

[RedCoyote]

Also, your smugness and high horsedness doesn't give you the right to dodge the question. So that's noted, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

All I'm saying is that your inactivity is worrying me. I've never seen you do this.

I don't want to have ignored you all day and then die N1 and be in dead thread like 'RC is scum, why didn't I do anything about that'.

I'm sure you can understand me wanting to engage you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh, I thought that was a rhetorical question; I didn't check your site wide activity because I don't care about it.

I care about this game.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, breaking that down even more, I don't like the word excusing either. I don't like the accusatory nature of the whole post. I wasn't excusing anything. I was just pointing out that it was dishonest of you to exclude relevant information especially when I've touched on the issue earlier.

I mean, you have a right to be frustrated, but that shouldn't interfere with your scumhunting.

All I'm saying is that your inactivity is worrying me. I've never seen you do this.

You say worrying, but you're using it as ammunition. I can appreciate you wanting to engage me. Rest assured, I look forward to seeing what you said about my earlier post and giving you feedback.

Oh, I thought that was a rhetorical question; I didn't check your site wide activity because I don't care about it.

I care about this game.

I don't think that's fair because they're inseparable. I mean, that goes for anybody. Especially if you're telling me that I'm worrying you due specifically to that. As town, you should want to gather the relevant information.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, you have a right to be frustrated, but that shouldn't interfere with your scumhunting.

It hasn't.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think that's fair because they're inseparable. I mean, that goes for anybody. Especially if you're telling me that I'm worrying you due specifically to that. As town, you should want to gather the relevant information.

Relevant information being what you post in this game.

If you're inactive side-wide, that's fine. I really need to see something from you in this game though; preferably something that isn't in catch-up mode.

[RedCoyote]

I like redFF's absta case in 531. I would've supported that wagon had I been around at that time.

I also like 537, and generally agree with the idea that Boon is anti-town and not scum.

---

Me posting fluff since voting for boon is not the same as posting fluff nearly all game (like you have done). What exactly is your point here?

That's unfair and you're being simplistic here. redFF has contributed quite a bit to the game.

Also, if you wanted me to elaborate on my thoughts on Boon, you could've asked. People generally don't (me as well) explain their reads as soon as they get the feeling. They usually just elaborate when people ask, like I have done now.

I kind of agree with you, but you should realize the situation with Boonskiies is touch-and-go. It's moving fast, you're encouraging the speed, yet when someone calls you out for not being elaborate enough, you act as though you were ignorant it. Nah, I don't buy that part. This is a whole "live by the sword, die by the sword" kind of thing.

---

Confirmed town, seeing as he would stick around if he was scum.

Hey, you read me how you want, boss. This is influencing my read of WW, not yours. I'm telling you how I got there. You can take it or leave it.

To be honest, I got thrown off by Boon, and to some degree Keyser taking up most of the space during my read.

Agreed.

---

All the quotes below #432 are not a part of my reasons for voting him. Also, all of that came before I clarified. If I meant for you to consider it, I would've mentioned something about his playstyle/shitposting.

This is weak and I don't think you are being upfront. You're telling me it's just a coincidence? No, it doesn't work like that. If those posts are bad, then they have to influence your scumread someway.

---

KS' 557 =

---

RedFF is basically active lurking. He's not doing anything that I can see to sort town from scum. No reasoning and lots of personal attack.

What are you talking about? This is ridiculous.

---

I like KS' 576 and I'm ready to throw him back into my town pile. I hope you guys are keeping track if I call you town or scum so you can throw it back at me later if I mess up.



---

How is red causing you to doubt scum read scum?

I had you as town, but I echo BBT's frustration here and find myself scratching my head a bit at your being so obtuse.

Also, please no one say red to refer to redFF or myself... too confusing.

---

Also I'm fucking confused who I should be voting.

lolwut

Want someone to tell you?

This is scum.

---

Absta wanting to give Woody's replacement a "chance to redeem the slot" makes me question whether he had a genuine scum read.

Good point.

Redcoyote, I don't see the reach on my part. The tone didn't seem as genuinely upset as he tried to appear. Redff is also a weak scum read at worst for me. At least Boon, Absta, and BBT are scummier.

Fair enough. I like this post a lot, so I am over my Kmd = scum phase for now.

And to answer your question about BBT's take on redFF, yes, that is reaching, too.

---

I'm not convinced he actually did.

Come on.

---

I agree with KS' 620 against Bulba.

---

the only time i'm lynched when I'm town, is when people think I'm "obvious scum".

Nobody here gives a shit about how you play in other games. This is mini 1701.

I like this, but I get the feeling like you're turning the heat up on Boonskiies as you see your wagon gaining momentum.

---

kmd scores townpoints because he's the first to point it out, and the "lol" he is referring to was from redFF regarding woody's claim. The double lol makes me think that redFF is scum and in reality loves that the town is already claiming.

I don't follow. Then why put yourself out there?

Interesting that
1) you go out of your way to identify the only two possibilities for absta (not rocket science)
2) you list him as ww first (people generally put their best guess first)
3)"Instead of the latter" - the latter as you stated is town, so you essentially wrote "Instead of town, I believe him to be town"

I"m not sure what to make of it.

I liked this post until the last sentence. I'm assuming you're thinking scum, but why do you not state that?

---

If it's normal for Boon to play like this as town, why did you say it was very odd? Also, shouldn't it be a null-tell on him from your perspective if he does this as town all the time? I don't see why you say it's worth bringing up considering this.

It's like you completely left off my qualifier? "Then again" is like saying "on second thought".

Let me write it another way:

I agree that Boon's reads don't have a lot of sincerity to them. This is a negative. It tells me he's more making it up as he goes along than actually scumhunting. On second thought, I know this player in particular likes to move his vote around quite a bit, so perhaps this shouldn't influence me as much as it normally may.

---

674 - 677 convinced me that Banakai is the wagon to be on right now. This is the player I want to see lynched.

Wow, that sure would be damning evidence if Woody had ever claimed that he HAD read the Haschelwagon.

This speaks to BBT's alignment, but not to WW's. Let's just be clear about that.

KS = town
absta = scum
TM = lean town
HC = town
redFF = town
BBT = lean town
WW/DW = lean scum
Banakai = scum
Kmd = lean town
Zoro = scum
Boon = town
Bulba = lean scum

[RedCoyote]

I feel caught up enough. Hopefully my conversation should flow a bit more easily going forward. I won't be particularly busy next week either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Does that mean you stopped at 682?

You haven't got much more to read...

Also, you should place a vote now.

Also, also, why are you scum reading Zoro and DW?

[Kmd4390]

I need to catch up again soon...