[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[mallpal]

Once the Mafia are dead and multiple Druids survive, is it even possible for Town to win? As soon as they lynch all but one of the Druids, the remaining one automatically wins. (Or does lynching the armed druid mean that town share a win with the other druid?)

I fear that this game has the "scumteam of one" problem that makes scumhunting very hard because there are no associative tells. It might be fun for the druids (although they have an uphill battle), but it doesn't seem fun for town.

lynching the armed druid means that the town shares the win with the other one, yeah. tbh that's mostly a contingency mechanic for if the mafia die early (town would have no interest in resolving which druid wins if they've already won), I expect that a druid would become armed only in a small proportion of games but it's hard to say without running the setup.

as for associative tells, they should exist since the druids are trying to protect the peeks from the others so they can know who the others are by elimination later, and trying to kill off their own sent peeks to avoid it happening to them.

Druids would have the same associative tells as reverse lynchers, I think, since they don't want to lynch the half-confirmed people. A spin-off:

1 mage
3 druids
7 townies

You're a townie. You win when the druids and the mage are dead or gone.

You're a druid. You win and leave the game when the two other druids are dead. You're immune to nightkills. Every night and during pre-game, you have to send in a name of another player, and you receive an anonymous, randomly ordered list of the druids' choices, including your own. You can't send in the same name twice. If you're lynched, all lists you received are made public.

You're a mage. You win when at least 50% of the living players isn't aligned to the town, even if you're dead by then. Every night and during pre-game, you receive a list of the druids' choices. Your lists will be in the form of "Druid A targeted TheIrishPope. Druid B targeted Bob. Druid C targeted Coen," where Druid A, B and C are the same people every night. You have a nightkill which fails on druids.

this is pretty cool! not sure about full list reveals on lynch though, I've not run through the scenarios but it seems it could lead to a mechanical loss for one or more of the druids late game. maybe just reveal the list received that day?

[Bicephalous Bob]

The point is that it gives druids nothing to bargain with. Given that this is only happens once and that the lynched druid's choices are also on there, a mechanical loss seems unlikely.

[Sméagol]

I haven't thought this through. Can this work / be made to work?

13 players:

mafia vanilla
mafia neapolitan

mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor

town vanilla
town vanilla
town vanilla
town vigilante
town cop

Assume the roles are normal,

except

the traitors don't know who the "proper" mafia members are.

My first thought is that both town as well as the "proper" mafia will claim to be a traitor, and players will actually have to townhunt to win the game. Traitors are obviously not going to lynch their fellow (but "proper") mafia teammates, but they can't claim unless they get rid of the vigilante, who will shoot them on sight, and it only takes 2 to win. Town will claim traitor to not get lynched of course. If town loses the vig, they have to convince the players that the mafia members are actually town.

Like I said, I didn't think this through, I may be overlooking something obvious (and I don't know if something similar has been tried before).

[Annadog40]

^ Looks interesting I like it. What is a neapolitan?

[Sméagol]

It's a variation of a vanilla cop.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neapolitan

[BBmolla]

I haven't thought this through. Can this work / be made to work?

13 players:

mafia vanilla
mafia neapolitan

mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor

town vanilla
town vanilla
town vanilla
town vigilante
town cop

Assume the roles are normal,

except

the traitors don't know who the "proper" mafia members are.

My first thought is that both town as well as the "proper" mafia will claim to be a traitor, and players will actually have to townhunt to win the game. Traitors are obviously not going to lynch their fellow (but "proper") mafia teammates, but they can't claim unless they get rid of the vigilante, who will shoot them on sight, and it only takes 2 to win. Town will claim traitor to not get lynched of course. If town loses the vig, they have to convince the players that the mafia members are actually town.

Like I said, I didn't think this through, I may be overlooking something obvious (and I don't know if something similar has been tried before).

You have to disable no lynch for this to work. otherwise, once vig is dead, you can no lynch and let mafia kill till they kill the town.

[Sméagol]

Yup, good call.

edit:

Simply disabling no lynch would not be enough, you have to force a lynch each day. A most votes lynch would do the trick I think, though I'd like an elegant solution for ties, or a situation where everyone refuses to vote.

Edit 2:

Or... Maybe play around with the win conditions.. Mafia (without traitors) win when they match or outnumber town, town wins when they match or outnumber (mafia + traitors). Hmmz.

I was also thinking that it's unfair to have the mafia have access to a safeclaim (the neapolitan), if they get a lucky early kill on the vig. Simple solution would be to get rid of the neapolitan, but I like giving the mafia some ability to find potential targets. So the other solution would be to have something of a backup vig.

Then there's the question if this is fun though.

[Cheery Dog]

It's an open setup, Neapolitan therefore isn't a safeclaim, but a lynch me now claim.

[Sméagol]

Who's going to lynch the neapolitan? The traitors aren't. Town can't.
The only possibility is if a townie counterclaims neapolitan to achieve a 1 on 1 trade, which is still advantageous to town, but much less so than in a normal set-up, and carries a big risk.

[callforjudgement]

Town and Mafia are misnamed in this setup.

What you actually have is a five-player scumteam who don't know each other's identities, and an eight-player town, which has a Mason pair (one of which is also a Neopolitan).

[Sméagol]

That's not quite correct..
Town wouldn't lose if they lost both masons. The traitors lose when they lose both proper mafia, regardless how many of them survive. The neapolitan also wouldn't fullfil the same role as it does in this set-up.

Anyway, I think it may be worth a future marathon experiment. Rather than tampering with the lynch mechanics, I think I'll just lose the mafia factional kill. Perhaps lose the mafia neapolitan, or add a back-up vig instead.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Disabling no-lynches doesn't change the fact that the mafia can safely claim after the vig is dead

If both mafia are alive and the vig is dead it's an auto-win for scum, even if townies try to cc the mafia team with their townreads

[Sméagol]

Which is why I prefer adding a backup vig (though to be precise, I'd like to randomly make one vanilla townie the new vig when the original one is dead). This will make sure they won't be able to claim anything in the beginning.
Other than that, maybe adjusting the ratio could help. Trading in one traitor for another vanilla townie.

[MarioManiac4]

4p QUICK GAME

2 Vanilla Townies
1 Mafia Goon
1 Town Doctor

Features elements of both Day play and Night play.

If the Mafia Goon is lynched, Town win.
If the Town Doctor is lynched, Mafia win.
If a Vanilla Townie is lynched, the game continues to Night. The doctor must protect someone. If they protect the mafia, Mafia win. If they protect the town, the mafia must try to decide who is doctor and who is VT, and kill the doctor.

[IceGuy]

Double Lynch

2 Mafia Goons
3 Vanilla Townies

Nightless, usual win conditions.

On the first day, two players are lynched. They flip only after both lynches have happened; the first lynched player can continue to talk and vote until the second lynch happens.

In the beginning of the second day, one remaining townie will be publicly mod-confirmed.

Quick EV calculation:

Day 1:
1/10 - both Goons lynched,

town win

3/10 - two VTs lynched,

mafia win

6/10 - one Goon and one VT lynched, go to Day 2

Day 2:
1/2 - Goon lynched,

town win

1/2 - VT lynched,

mafia win

Assuming random lynches, town wins in 40% of cases.

[Sméagol]

Thought some more about it, I think I'd like to run it in a marathon in this set-up:

mafia vanilla
mafia neapolitan

mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor

town vanilla
town vanilla
town vanilla
town cop
town cop

Assume the roles are normal,

except

the traitors don't know who the "proper" mafia members are.

Vengeful mechanic: anyone who gets lynched may optionally take someone else down with him.

The vengeful mechanic solves both the lynching problem as well as the claiming problem. I was thinking of maybe only giving town a vengeful factional ability, but I'm all for equal (mis)opportunity. With the mechanic, I thought the vig would be overkill / redundant. Added a second cop instead.. Cops have a different function here than they'd have in a normal game, they can't distinguish between traitors and other mafia, so they're much less useful, plus they can't really claim anything, unless they wanted to try a last ditch effort, which reduces their use even further.. Their ability mostly serves them personally, so they can filter out who to kill with their vengekill and who not.

[callforjudgement]

This setup still has the Town and Mafia labeled the wrong way round (although as it's an Open, that mostly doesn't matter). Any setup that contains more Traitors than it contains any sort of Townie will necessarily end up like that.

[Sméagol]

Yeah, you already mentioned, but I already replied there are some slight differences.. If you were to make the traitors VTs and simply switch the alignment of the others, you do

not

get the exact same game.

[MarioManiac4]

Guns and Faith

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Town Odd-Night Vig
Town Even-Night Vig
Town Weak Faith Healer
Town Weak Doctor
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker

Would this work?

[callforjudgement]

If a Weak Faith Healer targets scum, do they have a 100% or 50% chance of dying?

Something along those lines could work, I think. I'm too tired to have a good idea of whether those specific numbers do, though.

[MarioManiac4]

If a Weak Faith Healer targets scum, do they have a 100% or 50% chance of dying?

Something along those lines could work, I think. I'm too tired to have a good idea of whether those specific numbers do, though.

I see a Faith Healer as protecting a player but the protection has a 50% chance of not working, so they'd die 100% of the time.

[Cheery Dog]

Faith Healers just aren't a fun role.

Even if Faith +1 seemed to be a popular setup for some reason for a while in the open queue.

[MarioManiac4]

Faith Healers just aren't a fun role.

Even if Faith +1 seemed to be a popular setup for some reason for a while in the open queue.

I could replace the Healer with, say, a PGO. Or a Desperado.

[Bicephalous Bob]

always use the chatmafia.net Faith Healer

[Not_Mafia]

That's CPR doc