Inorganic Chemistry [GAME OVER, SCUM WIN]

[Cerberus v666]

Well, TSO says it was his top scumread/questionable read, but his ISO doesn't reveal any clarity on that point. There were at least a couple potential targets he was suspicious of.

[Wickedestjr]

Is this the second time that Cerebus has hopped to defend/answer for Lying Cat? I feel like it is. Why is he doing that for him?

I don't know how many times he's answered for Lying Cat, but in general he's answered for others on several occasions in this game. I don't think it's scum buddy defense, I think this is just his personality. He's been one of the most active players here, he definitely has had the time on his hands to explain things for other people. He's a comfortable town read for me.

If Nacho "derailed" Lying Cat's ika wagon so easily be disagreeing with it, how solid was it to begin with?

It was never really a solid bandwagon. He had three or four votes at one point, but it was very short-lived. It was clear from the start that it had more opposition than momentum.

Since TSO as stated ika was town, why is that different from what Nacho did? As in, if Nacho is a suspect, why is TSO not?

I wouldn't expect TSO, as scum, to start the bandwagon and completely change his mind like that. That really accomplishes nothing beyond WIFOM: a wagon forms on ika and TSO attracts attention to himself for the abrupt switch. Nacho's behavior wrt ika is definitely worse, but I still think that they are both town.

[Wickedestjr]

I also like Cerb's point for TSO being town. It wasn't something I'd considered, but it makes perfect sense. Flubber did not make it clear that he'd give the cop to TSO, iirc.

[PeregrineV]

It was never really a solid bandwagon. He had three or four votes at one point, but it was very short-lived. It was clear from the start that it had more opposition than momentum.

Then why is it being considered a reason for scumreading Nacho?

Nacho shot down my original ika case, so I'm happy to lynch him first.

[Wickedestjr]

1. I can't remember who else argued with the ika bandwagon. Nacho is the only player I can think of that originally defended ika.

2. I think Lying Cat is scum.

[PeregrineV]

town {mastin, constantine, cerb, wicked, me}

leaves two scum in {nacho, TSO, PV, vezok, Jaquen}

My issue is with this.

I kind of read cerebus as town, along with you, Nacho, Vezok, and Jaquen. And maybe kind of TSO.

That leaves Mastin, Hermit and Lying Cat.

I don't have mastin as scum, but I don't have him as town. (I should probably read all his posts, but...seriously.....)
Hermit's playerslot looks town form early ISOs. I think I didn;t like one vote placement, but that's the only bad standout.
Lying Cat I want to say is town, but I haven't looked at his ISO too closely either.
But, he posts stuff like this in which he has 1 town, and 4 leaning town as scumreads).

I guess how many more are we looking for? 2,right?

[Wickedestjr]

Forgot to post it here. Shouldn't change too much considering the slow pace-

Mod: I will be V/LA from August 8th through 12th. I will not touch a computer, but might be able to make the occasional phone posts...

[PeregrineV]

2 left.

Which post has your Lying cat case or reasons?

[PeregrineV]

And feelings on Hermit?

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah two scum left.

Why are you town reading Vezok? What do you think of my last few points?

Hermit is pretty much confirmed town. Sonic Boom investigated his predecessor.

mastin could be scum. If I'm wrong about vezok or Lying Cat, then he would be my next best guess...

[Wickedestjr]

Which post has your Lying cat case or reasons?

Honestly, Lying Cat hasn't really done anything that's bothered me. The scum read is a combination of POE and lack of town feeling that I got from Organic Chem...

[PeregrineV]

Yeah two scum left.

Why are you town reading Vezok? What do you think of my last few points?

Hermit is pretty much confirmed town. Sonic Boom investigated his predecessor.

mastin could be scum. If I'm wrong about vezok or Lying Cat, then he would be my next best guess...

I ISO'sVezok looking for ika stance- results here:
3896
3897

I guess it mostly boils down to "In certain situations, he made choices that were not in the best interest of the scum team if he were a part of it."

I'll look your posts over again.

[Cerberus v666]

I also like Cerb's point for TSO being town. It wasn't something I'd considered, but it makes perfect sense. Flubber did not make it clear that he'd give the cop to TSO, iirc.

He didn't, but I can't take credit for that, it was a mastin point that won me over. It's why I removed TSO and yourself from my potential scum list.

It was never really a solid bandwagon. He had three or four votes at one point, but it was very short-lived. It was clear from the start that it had more opposition than momentum.

Then why is it being considered a reason for scumreading Nacho?

Nacho shot down my original ika case, so I'm happy to lynch him first.

Probably cause Nacho doesn't have much content to work off of imo. He's said things, but I at least have a very difficult time getting a read out of what he's done. That "shooting down of a case on scum" is one of the few confrontations he's had with someone about something(I think, this game has kinda dragged, and I may very easily be forgetting things from the earlier days).

Now, with all that said, i don't really think it's a good reason to be scumreading him. Especially given that apparently it's an easy mistake to make, since ika apparently has more control over his scum meta than people were giving him credit for.

pedit: so many posts missed. Constantine is almost confirmed town PV. He was weak copped N1 by Sonic Boom, when nobody was declaring who they would investigate. The only way he is scum is if he is a godfather and godfather interacts with weak in a way that I would frankly find shocking, or if scum happened to have a redirection ability and used it to redirect abilities away from him on that night in particular.

Now, a mastin/LC team. That's super possible. Let's just say I wouldn't put it past them to blatantly buddy with their teammate.

[PeregrineV]

Final Vote Count of Day 2

Cerberus v666 - 1 (T S O)
Flubbernugget - 2 (hiplop, Nachomamma8)

hiplop - 9 (vezokpiraka, Flubbernugget, Sonic Boom, Shakira Confirmed, ZZZX, Wickedestjr, Cerberus v666, Kari, ika)

ika - 1 (Lying Cat)
Sonic Boom - 2 (mastin2, Jaqen Hghar)

Not Voting: Aristophanes, ika, Kari

If vezok is town, then the first seven votes of this bandwagon are all from town... I seriously doubt that.

If he were town (and the first 7, I would expect more sumhunting off of the wagon. Has anyone brought hit up before?

If vezok is town, then I have a hard time believing that scum stayed off his bandwagon until after seven/eight votes.

If vezok is scum, then it makes much more sense for other scum to stay off the bandwagon because their partner would already be on it.

This is true. However, if town is doing the job of mislynching all by themselves, then scum have no reason to join on. This let's them use the "scum-on-town-wagon" method later on.

Also, something else I noticed last night: ika was really reluctant to give a read on vezok.

His first acknowledgment of vezok is here, in his response to Bins' reads;

vez's iso looks ok but i don't really have any experience playing with him so this read is goign to have to wait a little bit

think i have one scum game with him (where i was cult) could link you if you want meta

He is one of the only players that ika doesn't actually give a read on. (See 294 for context).

ok so im not gonna quote for jsut length reason so

lying cats, how come the PSA is a town read? I have seen games where scuums have dont such things. What about it leads to town vs scum?
ank - agree hes town
jaqu - can you elaborate why this mans iso is good? i have a few comments baout i made and the playstyle itself. but is there something eh said that give it?
shakeria - town from getgo
flub - ill prob iso later, to give much he dropped off from my existance in game

vez - he was, i should iso and compare i have had a sucm game with him but he died n1...

ZZZX - freeness? elaborate? i dont diagree hes town but i kinda have other reaosns for it based on his play

cerb - gut call says he town
wicked - who?

mastin - i would lynch in a heartbead honestly its pretty clear what masitn doing and i think its shitty and fake
SB - dont get me started

kari - day 1 policy?

bins - ill iso and decide
hiplop - can i see jpg? but inseriosu i can link a few games if you would like to use meta i find him unreadable

Again.

He later has vezok listed as a lynchable player, but never gave any reason for why.

Strongest part of your argument for Vezok-scum, to me. But, since ika was scum, a lot of it is WIFOM. He also left off Sonic Boom (town) and Mac/Aristo (scum).

And ika moved ankamius from town to his top scumread. How did that not catch your eye?

Why should it catch my eye? I wouldn't necessarily expect ika to do that to a partner.

Vezok pointing it out but not pushing it seems to be another reason I'm town-reading him. He needs a counterwagon to himself, and could have used TSO (especially since I would have see it as support for my case), but he didn't, he just pointed it out.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

Bins - 5 (Lying Cat, mastin2, Jaqen Hghar, Wickedestjr, hiplop)
hiplop - 8 (vezokpiraka, ZZZX, Flubbernugget, Sonic Boom, Tere, Ankamius, Bins, Cerberus v666)
Shakira Confirmed - 1 (Mac)
Sonic Boom - 1 (Shakira Confirmed)

Not Voting: ika, Kari

The day has ended in a No Lynch. It is now Night 1. Day 2 will start in (expired on 2015-06-19 23:20:41).

This is the hiplop wagon at the end of day 1. All flipped scum are of the main wagons.

What's your point?

1695 was the lynch post. Macscum was voting off-wagons, ika was not voting.
Was Mastin, Lying Cat, or Jaqen available near deadline? It's hard to see scum giving up a mislynch, even if they have to hammer.

I dunno. I get the suspicion, just not the scumminess I was kind of expecting from his posts.

[PeregrineV]

Now, a mastin/LC team. That's super possible. Let's just say I wouldn't put it past them to blatantly buddy with their teammate.

Entirely possible and reasonable.

[mastin2]

Seems like you just want to scum read Nacho regardless of how the night ended...

Actually...the opposite.

I'm desperately trying to find ways that Nacho would be town. I don't want to be wrong on him. It can happen, I just try very very hard to make sure it doesn't happen. Yet the more I think, the more every fiber in me is saying he has to be scum. Especially with him putting Jaqen in the town list with me. I get me being in there; regardless of my alignment, he HAS to put me in there, or I nail his ass for being wrong, a-la Tales. (Not that it actually mattered, nailing him in Tales, but that was then, this is now; he wouldn't want to be nailed by me NOW.)

And while I know the mind of Scum!Nacho fairly well, I don't know the finer points. Like, I can predict, but I don't actually know them. I should, but I don't. I have that mental map I mentioned. It's decent, fairly good even, but it's far from perfect. Like a weather forecast, using the instruments around me to form a prediction. And the closer to the date, the more accurate it is. So in this case, a big part of it is the mindset going into the night. Mainly...was I even a viable nightkill to him? I'd like to think I was--I should have been, at least--but I'm not sure, and the possibility that he just flat-out dismissed the idea of killing me would make him scum for sure.

Yet I don't want to believe that.

I'm not sure it makes sense. It's something you just kinda...have to know, given our extensive history. (Nacho probably has the most games with me of any other player, when you include hydras and modding.) We don't have that AP-me or me-zMuf psychic connection, but we have a similar bond in place, where there's just been a dynamic in play. I can't boil it down to anything more than: right now, I'm really, really trying to think things through. To be sure about it, to get in the mindset where I can read through the thread unbiased. There's some assumptions that can be made in a readthrough (e.g. Wicked's town, LC's town, TSO's town), but I don't want that gut-prejudice to ruin any chance I have of getting a read right on him if he's town.

[mastin2]

...Also, on an LC/me team...

LC, I take it back. Today is the day.

Do you want to do the honors, or shall I?

[Lying Cat]

Can I do it in the morning? I'm kinda in a shitty place rn and I don't feel like digging through and finding all the in-thread evidence.

[Lying Cat]

I guess if you want to do the legwork you can out me. It's just really weird having someone else tell everyone my role.

[mastin2]

Nah, it'll be more rewarding if you do it.

[Jaqen Hghar]

I understand. Just wanted to make sure Jaqen didn't reveal who he'd target.

You're the closest thing to a townread for me right now.....

Is this the second time that Cerebus has hopped to defend/answer for Lying Cat? I feel like it is. Why is he doing that for him?

If Nacho "derailed" Lying Cat's ika wagon so easily be disagreeing with it, how solid was it to begin with?

Since TSO as stated ika was town, why is that different from what Nacho did? As in, if Nacho is a suspect, why is TSO not?

You should read my ISO. It's full of instances of me talking for other people. It's what I do. If you ask a question I feel I can answer and I'm not feeling especially lazy, I'll answer it.

I'll even do it right now again for Wicked:At least one reason why Nacho is a suspect and TSO isn't is because scum TSO has little to gain from revealing that he received the cop yesterday in light of flubbers flip. At worst, that play would get him lynched because he was still a suspect by PoE, and it would confirm his result on wicked. At best, it got him some town credit.

It doesn't seem likely that said town credit is worth the risk, to me at least.

It'd be cool to hear wicked's thoughts too.

I also like Cerb's point for TSO being town. It wasn't something I'd considered, but it makes perfect sense. Flubber did not make it clear that he'd give the cop to TSO, iirc.

And this Cerb is why you don't fucking answer questions which have nothing to do with you, you impertinent fool!

If

you're town and

if

he's scum you just gave Wicked an easy out

and

cause a false scum read on yourself. If Wicked is scum, I hope he wins this if for no other reason so you might learn a lesson.

[Cerberus v666]

I understand. Just wanted to make sure Jaqen didn't reveal who he'd target.

You're the closest thing to a townread for me right now.....

Is this the second time that Cerebus has hopped to defend/answer for Lying Cat? I feel like it is. Why is he doing that for him?

If Nacho "derailed" Lying Cat's ika wagon so easily be disagreeing with it, how solid was it to begin with?

Since TSO as stated ika was town, why is that different from what Nacho did? As in, if Nacho is a suspect, why is TSO not?

You should read my ISO. It's full of instances of me talking for other people. It's what I do. If you ask a question I feel I can answer and I'm not feeling especially lazy, I'll answer it.

I'll even do it right now again for Wicked:At least one reason why Nacho is a suspect and TSO isn't is because scum TSO has little to gain from revealing that he received the cop yesterday in light of flubbers flip. At worst, that play would get him lynched because he was still a suspect by PoE, and it would confirm his result on wicked. At best, it got him some town credit.

It doesn't seem likely that said town credit is worth the risk, to me at least.

It'd be cool to hear wicked's thoughts too.

I also like Cerb's point for TSO being town. It wasn't something I'd considered, but it makes perfect sense. Flubber did not make it clear that he'd give the cop to TSO, iirc.

And this Cerb is why you don't fucking answer questions which have nothing to do with you, you impertinent fool!

If

you're town and

if

he's scum you just gave Wicked an easy out

and

cause a false scum read on yourself. If Wicked is scum, I hope he wins this if for no other reason so you might learn a lesson.

Pretty sure I'm going to continue to answer questions because your lesson isn't one. The simple fact of scum relying on the arguments of others to defend themselves, rather than having their own independent thoughts, does good work to identify them as scum.

In addition, all I said was the exact same thing mastin said earlier in the thread. If you want to be upset at someone, be upset at mastin for providing a reason to townread TSO, and thus wicked.

[Jaqen Hghar]

No. It doesn't. I had to learn that lesson as well. Carry on, but trust me- it's a dumb move

[Jaqen Hghar]

What does a good job is letting the try to explain something they don't remember doing because a lot of the time they can't even remember doing it because they had no conviction in it in the first place.answering for them only gives them a place to hide.

[Jaqen Hghar]

And then conversely, say the person is town and you provide the only answer they had. Then, that leaves the doubt as to whether or not it's what that person actually thought and could easily lead to a mislynch on a vital townie. It's just bad practice and I'll policy you in future games if you're obstinant about it.