Mini 1701 - Modified Werewolf 13er

[Doctor Who]

Why are y'all assuming that TM wasn't catching up prior to 528? I mean, I'll let him speak for himself, but, like I was telling BBT yesterday, those posts don't bother me at all. Often times I start catching up, get bored, and make a post about either my status or something else midway through.

Why don't you allow Tony to speak for himself first before you jump in?

[Keyser Söze]

Additionally, I think that last minute push at TM just reinforces my theory that TM is town. The only reason Banakai didn't jump over to it is because he was already on the second biggest wagon (Boon, also likely town).

This was my initial thought, but I recently played a newbie game, where the scum (who was at L-1, nearing the hammer) put pressure on his scum teammate - we gave his scum teammate a free-card right to MYLO, thinking "scum would never bus their own at L-1" - thus, I am more paranoid now

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, catching up.

Sorry it wasn't clearer, it did start with "I grow ever more weary of you BBT." not "these are reasons you are scummy".

You phrased them as if they were points for me being scum. Backtracking on this doesn't look good - also, if my 'wall posts' are sucking the fun out of the game for you; why are you continually wall posting?

I mean, you don't seem to be able to decide whether you want to lynch me because I'm scum or whether you want to PL me because I'm making the game less fun for you.

Doctor is pretty much town by now bbt.

He is? What makes you say that?

The initial Ban wagon got up to 5 votes with BBT being the fifth by post 788. When voting, you made a point to start to end the game Day with 5 real days left. I think you wanted to give Ban enough time to claim he was the Seer.

Reach more please? Like, every single post of mine you're twisting so that it fits the narrative you're trying to push. It's really, really weak. I don't even understand how you come to that conclusion - walk me through it.

Time and posts pass, and the next vote is in 940 where BBT puts Ban back to 5. Unless there is something to the contrary after post 854 where bbt had shown a willingness to vote Ban, BBTs vote was clearly going to go to Ban. To do so otherwise would have raised suspicion, particularly after I called you out in 938. I ISO'd you after your Tony vote, and you were really pushing hard for a wagon on him. I saw no mention of Absta, but if I missed it please point it out.

I could have stayed on Tony, no? I could have moved to Absta as well. Just because I hadn't mentioned him recently it doesn't mean I couldn't have joined his wagon - I could have. I had no reason to bus and bussing D1 is pretty terrible and I don't consider myself a bad scum player.

Is my hard pushing of the Tony wagon somehow alignment indicative? Are you saying I didn't push Woody hard? Who was I pushing Woody as a counter-wagon to? Keep on twisting though; it's cute.

I'm voting BBT because of his fake read on Boon.
- He says that Boon is town because he is playing too scummy to be scum.
- Redff says that Woody is town for the exact same reason.
- BBT tells Redff that is a horrible reason to call someone town.

This means BBT is making up a false reason for why Boon is town, i.e. a reason he does not believe in. There is no town motivation in this play, only scum motivation (buddying).

Umm, I didn't say Boon was playing too scummy to be scum. I said Boon is not a bad scum player - his play this game makes him town. He is more consistent as scum and he tries much more. This kind of read flip-flopping and general confusion is town Boon. I'm kind of embarrassed about this because I'm realising it's based on meta but I'm extremely comfortable with my ability to read Boon and he is town this game.

@BBT

Will post later but Zoro looks a pretty good vote.

Explain this please.

Kmd has pretty much covered anything I could say. When Zoro is talking about Banakai he doesn't really present an opinion on him, usually stating that he is null or doesn't find anything scummy. I'll go into more detail when I can but there is very little point.

I'm heading out, I'll get to this when I get back and finish catching up.

[RedCoyote]

Why are y'all assuming that TM wasn't catching up prior to 528? I mean, I'll let him speak for himself, but, like I was telling BBT yesterday, those posts don't bother me at all. Often times I start catching up, get bored, and make a post about either my status or something else midway through.

Why don't you allow Tony to speak for himself first before you jump in?

Um, did you skip the part in the post where I said I would? BBT brought up the same thing yesterday.

[Kmd4390]

Also, having a town read on Tony because of this is just dumb. 

This is what I was getting at with Boon. And now he says that if you flip town, he'll still town read TonyMontana and I don't get why. If the only reason to town read him is associative tells with a living player, that read becomes entirely baseless if you flip town so I'm surprised to hear he'd stick to it in that case.

I'm skipping over Keyser's post because I want to try to do my own Ban ISO tonight or tomorrow and I don't want his to influence my thoughts. I'll go back and read his when I'm done.

Preview edit:
Keyser, that's a good point about the Boon wagon and important info because it probably means TonyMontana and Absta aren't scum together. I can't remember why, but I think I made that connection (or non connection?) earlier anyway, but another thing to back it is important of course.

Redcoyote, if Zoro were to flip town, would you still think scum tried to push TonyMontana as a counterwagon? If so, who? If not, what would your read on Tony be and why?

[RedCoyote]

Redcoyote, if Zoro were to flip town, would you still think scum tried to push TonyMontana as a counterwagon? If so, who? If not, what would your read on Tony be and why?

Yeah, I think I would. In that case I think it would be BBT. Banakai's posts give me confident townreads on Boon, TM and DW.

[Zoronos]

Meh, if I have to go out today for the crime of misreading Banakai's alignment, I'm okay with that.
Just remember who pushed it and for what reasons.

[redFF]

im guilty of not paying enough attention to banakai and that wagon, so i can't exactly attack zoronos for doing the same thing tbh

zoronos what are your thoughts on absta? you said you had him as scum, then that you would reread him, and have not really mentioned him since. what the deal with that?

[RedCoyote]

im guilty of not paying enough attention to banakai and that wagon

And why do you not want to fix this immediately given the fact that he just flipped scum? That's undeniably the best lead to go off of, redFF.

[redFF]

because absta was my biggest scumread yesterday, the banakai flip made him look even scummier, obvtown boonskies agrees

absta is clearly the lynch

[Bulbazoor]

Kmd, if you try to go against someone saying is scum due to a wagon that flips town, why are you also encouraging people to say if they think tony is town after zoro flips town? You would have to reason alike in both scenarios. And I do not think tony is a scum pushed wagon, since I myself think he is a ww.

[Kmd4390]

I'm actually not encouraging people to go one way or the other. I'm looking for critical thought. I want to see that people aren't making bad assumptions. For example, Boon assumed Tony is town because he is scum reading absta. He also says Tony is town whether absta is scum or not, but has no reasons for Tonyito be town individually. This is not critical thinking and I'd be voting Boon if I didn't believe he doesn't look like a Ban buddy. Redcoyote on the other hand showed that his theory that TonyMontana was a scum driven counter wagon is critical thought. He picked Zoro as the likely scum on that wagon and said that BBT is another option if it's not Zoro. This shows that he's following a lead that he believes in (the Tony wagon) and is actively following that lead. This is likely town play.

Tl;dr I'm trying to read the people I'm talking to with those statements, not who I'm talking about.

[Bulbazoor]

Ok. Thanks for answering my concern.

[Kmd4390]

No problem dude

[Bulbazoor]

About boon, check out his first day play, would that play come from scum or town that is desperate? You can answer that if you want. The major concern here is I am willing to believe boon about his meta. Your logic is bad in the point that you said you were going to vote him on the badis for his reads. Where is the other basis? The effort he puts in is not alignment indi ative. He explained it himself, and I believe him.

The point I agree in though is that he is not a likely partner of banakai, nor is it absta. Absta was not coaching and ban could have been associating any person he wanted to. We should be caref ul in reading the iso of ban.

He could have been misleading us. At this point, I think zoro is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, Absta feels he can no longer push me for a lynch, due to Banakai flipping werewolf, so he is pushing the next best thing that is revolving around a similar situation: BBT town reading the person he tried to mislynch.

This is a good point.

BBT, I think you a succumbing to, "DW is scum being he should be" syndrome. Do you know what I mean?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Fair point. Like you said though, you have the 4th most posts but I agree he probably wouldn't value your protection.
UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Tony

Hold on, you were scum reading me based on the assumption that Boon was town? But you were scum reading him...

snip theory post

Hey Tony, how about some reads?

Honestly, a scum BBT would be more likely to push for another scum wagon, given that the attempt was rather futile in itself. The question is not whether or not he was trying to save banakai, but rather if he wanted to distance himself from the wagon alltogether.

Right, so if your assumption is that I was trying to distance from the wagon then why did I return to it?

I thought BBT was resigning to a banakai wagon that he didn't see stopping, but quickly realized he didn't like the look of that.
Not being content with looking like a latecomer to a scum lynch, he changed over to relentlessly trying to get another wagon going.

Sorry, what is that comment based on? Why wouldn't I like the look of the Banakai wagon? What posts tell you I was unhappy with the wagon? That's a pretty wild statement to make.

This is the second time someone is using the 'effort' card as reasoning for why I am scum. That's BS.

Right now, I'm thinking BBT is legitimately, but overly paranoid, town.

Aside from paranoia, why are you town reading me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, I think I would. In that case I think it would be BBT. Banakai's posts give me confident townreads on Boon, TM and DW.

This post makes me feel uneasy. You're lining up lynches here RC.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

I need to reread Banakai when I get some time and look at interactions before I decide where I wanna vote. Pretty sure it's going on Tony/Zoro/Absta though.

[Keyser Söze]

Bulbazoor made an extensive post and vote on Banakai page 29 (post 702).

I believe this was the VC, prior to his vote on Banakai:
Boonskiies (4): absta101, Tony Montana, Kmd4390, Banakai
absta101 (2): Zoronos, Boonskiies

Banakai (2): Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote

Tony Montana (1): BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (2): Doctor Who, redff

Bulbazoor took his vote off the leading wagon (Boonskiies) onto a werewolf (Banakai).
25 town points for Bulbazoor.

[Kmd4390]

Bulb, you don't have to convince me Boon is town. I'm leaning that way. He's just frustrating to read.

BBT, after RedCoyote answers, remind me I have something to say about 1116

[Keyser Söze]

RedCoyote added the 2nd vote on the Banakai wagon. I like Red Coyote's frank admission on sheeping Haschel Cedricson:

I also like HC's Banakai case, and given that I know deep down I want to give Doctor Who more room to grow with us (my WW case was always on the weak end, but given that I wasn't around during most of the juicy bits, I couldn't really express that through voting as clearly as I would've liked).

UNVOTE: Doctor Who; VOTE: Banakai

For right now, consider me a sheep, though I have a couple of points of my own I would like to sprinkle in later (this catchup post will be long enough without me writing this out).

Red Coyote, 15 town points.

[Keyser Söze]

Correction:

I believe this was the VC, prior to his vote on Banakai:

Boonskiies (4): absta101, Banakai, Tony Montana, Kmd4390
absta101 (2): Zoronos, Boonskiies,
Banakai (2): Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote
Tony Montana (1): BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (2): Doctor Who, redff

Not Voting (2): Bulbazoor, Keyser Söze

Bulbazoor was not voting.

[Bulbazoor]

I believe I was voting Doc Who slot and unvoted.

[Bulbazoor]

Vote Count

Banakai

(7):

Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote, Bulbazoor, Boonskiies, BlueBloodedToffee, absta101, Banakai

Boonskiies

(3):

Banakai, Tony Montana, Kmd4390

absta101

(3):

redff, Keyser Söze, Doctor Who

Tony Montana

(1):

Zoronos

Not Voting

(0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

A lynch has been achieved.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-07 13:30:00)

Vote Count

Boonskiies

(4):

absta101, Banakai, Tony Montana, Kmd4390

absta101

(3):

Zoronos, Boonskiies, redff

Banakai

(2):

Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote

Tony Montana

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

BlueBloodedToffee

(1):

Doctor Who

Not Voting

(2):

Bulbazoor, Keyser Söze

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-07 13:30:00)

Note

: Tony Montana has been prodded.

Votecounts final and before I added vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so the first weird thing in Banakai's ISO is his sudden town read on redff. Let's follow the progression of this read;

Also red ff is town

Redff is town. Stated with no context and for no apparent reason.

Because his posts are a towns posts.

Lack of explanation here.

As for red ff, I just liked his posts, but he posted some questionable things now

#168 is a little meh but I shouldnt talk as I pretty much did the same thing
#176 was probbably his best post, both a good question and observation about scum in rvs
#181 is a little forced
#187 is a very good question
#203 kinda concerns me with its tone though

Begins backtracking on his redff read. Why is he doing this? It seems through his post analysis that he had at least some reasoning for his town read on redff and the backtracking is somewhat unwarranted. Unless you consider that redff is scum. Did Banakai present a town read on his buddy too early? Did he want to take it back to avoid leaving what would be an obvious connection?

I'd say #176 and #187 were really good. I'd still like to see the answer for #176 (unless I missed it when I was playing sordingo). #187 was just a good job noticing a person contradicting themselves and a good way to ask it.

However his recent posts have got me leaning scum now, it seems like he got lazy as scum and stopped looking town.

This is very general with nothing specific - he is continuing the read reversal on redff but as far as I can tell there is no reasoning behind him doing so. He still has reasoning for finding redff town but he is negating that with generic comment. I find the comment 'stopped looking town' quite interesting; I know of one alignment that tries to look town.

VOTE: red ff ya I know I called him town

Continues the distancing. Note at this point; nobody is voting Redff. It's an extremely safe time for Banakai to try and attempt to distance himself from redff if he thought his town read was going to draw unwanted attention.

VOTE: Boon

I bought idiot town for woody, but I have a hard time believing this slot was simply idiot town twice. Also not much point for me to be on a wagon nobody is helping with. I still suspect red ff.

Boons posts especially look more like scum than idiot town.

I will post more about him in a little bit

Weak reasoning for the switch onto Boon. This is the classic 'FoS buddy, vote town' scum tactic. He makes clear he is still suspect of Redff but because he is gaining no traction he will move onto Boon.

Basically boon and redff. I can understand some other wagons but they aren't screaming scum for me.

Boon for obvious reasons and I'll explain redff a little more when I get to a computer

Redff is still suspicious to him - we never see this case.

I guess I just forgot to make that case cause I was being asked a lot about boonskies and nothing about redff. While my scum read isn't completely gone, There are much better candidates for votes now and I don't think we need yet another wagon.

Transformation is complete. He is still scum reading Redff, with no reasoning and having never presented a case but now there are much better lynch opportunities and there is no need to get into Redff now.

I could lynch Redff Today.