League of Legends (Old)

[Psyche]

i'm glad he found a way to fit so many racial stereotypes into a video about a computer game

[popsofctown]

Riot doesn't like diversity, Riot likes enforced meta.

[quadz08]

which is why they changed mordekaiser the way they did, oh wait

[popsofctown]

Mordekaiser is a case in point. They wanted to invent ADC mordekaiser and get people to play it. If ADC mordekaiser had emerged as an unintended consequence of some item and ability changes, they would have nerfed it into the ground. There's plenty of examples of that sort of thing, like nerfing Lulu's scaling when she started to become a solo laner even though she was supposed to be a support by design. Pretty much anytime anything emergent arises they make a patch note saying "we don't hate emergent gameplay, we just hate emergent gameplay that is remotely viable" and patch it out.

I don't disagree that they might decrease marksman's tower's damage and then design the game so that you can put Ryze bottom or some other weird thing, but if it happens it will be because added it in in a very specific way. With their constant opposition to emergent gameplay, it won't really add diversity, at least not in terms of the total number of possible strategies. The new handcrafted carry will just displace some of the older carries.
It might make some of those strategies appear more unique from eachother though since having two melees bottom would be different from having two ranged bottom.

[zoraster]

You make it sound like a bad thing to have a vision of what you want the game to be like.

And I'd argue that they have increased diversity in a lot of ways. There are a lot more choices of how to build as anything other than ADC. But rather than being off-builds, they're based on choices you make in game.

Take Support. As Sona even my start depends on what I want to accomplish. If I'm against Leona I almost always take coin because Leona is going to hide in the bush and I'm super squishy so having the extra poke isn't worth it (and coin is definitively better if you can leverage spellthief into a lane advantage...). But if I'm against Braum or Janna I want to poke the ever lasting snot out of them with a spellthief. In my past few Sona games I've gone on to build Zeke's, Ardent Censer, Lich Bane, Banner of Command, talisman, frozen heart, and Rylai's. For boots I've built Sorc Boots, Ninja Tabis, Mobi Boots, and Lucidity Boots. All in reaction to what's happening in the game (or their team comp or my team comp). The only thing that is always in my build for her is a sightstone. Other than that I think about what makes sense.

[popsofctown]

Item diversity is doing pretty well. Sightstone is 800 gold less diversity than there ought to be in the game though.
It's a little disappointing they remove items because "noobs might assume this item is good in most situations and lose a game for buying it" now, though.

[zoraster]

pardon?

[Espeonage]

I actually really like that I can pick Quinn top and not know what I'm going to play until like 10 minutes in to the game.

And that goes for a lot of tops tbh. The amount of viable item builds is insane, and knowing exactly what is the best given how you stand and how the roles in your team stand at some point in the game is great.

[xRECKONERx]

imo trinkets should just be the source of vision. fuck wards, fuck sightstones.

having vision control be tied to gold income is a stupid idea imo because that means the team that gets behind is not only down in items/strength in fights, but it's going to be harder for them to keep any sort of vision control as well. have vision be just a "thing" that isn't tied to gold income over time. present more diversity in trinkets to increase the vision game... I'm thinking of how EVOLVE did tracking/vision... one option was sound-based tracking, another was where one person could see vision and had to communicate to his team to be effective, another had a roaming pet that would sniff out enemy tracks, another could trap certain camps/minions so that when the monster consumed them it gave vision for X time

I know Evolve is a different game but I think those ideas could be tweaked and added to the vision game here. Give a warding trinket. Give a vision trap trinket. Give a trinket to clear wards. Give the CV trinket. Give a trinket that lets you tag a neutral monster and see what it can see. Etc. Vision is one of the most limiting factors in this game and I think being at a gold disadvantage is already enough when you consider power level strength. Railroading support characters into taking sightstone is just zzzz -- the stated intent of the trinket system was to make it so the whole team was responsible for vision, not just the support, and yet we're right back to that stupid fucking stale meta because sightstone is a shitty gold investment for anyone except support.

[Espeonage]

But then what could I complain about my support?

[zoraster]

I've never minded buying a sightstone as support. If I do well in lane (along with my partner) I get an early sightstone early and can assert vision for not just me but also (Typically) my jungle and mid laner, thus allowing me to make more of a difference. If that were taken away from me by reducing the support's role in early-game vision, I'd be sad.

Also it means that if I prioritize vision differently than the opposing support we can weigh which is more important. Some people like to get their talisman/targon's going before shelling out for a sightstone. I almost always go full sightstone if i have the cash. They may be right in their evaluation. But in order for me to be right I have to influence the game through vision in a way the other support can't.

[popsofctown]

pardon?

One or two patches ago they removed a weak item. They stated that their reasoning was that it was extremely niche, and that even though some players might use it sometimes, they were worried that newbies would assume the item was just as good as other items of the same cost and buy it.

I can't remember which item it was.

[quadz08]

it's was Atma's Impaler

[Espeonage]

Ok that's fair though. Atmas hasn't been good since season 2.

[xRECKONERx]

I've never minded buying a sightstone as support. If I do well in lane (along with my partner) I get an early sightstone early and can assert vision for not just me but also (Typically) my jungle and mid laner, thus allowing me to make more of a difference. If that were taken away from me by reducing the support's role in early-game vision, I'd be sad.

Also it means that if I prioritize vision differently than the opposing support we can weigh which is more important. Some people like to get their talisman/targon's going before shelling out for a sightstone. I almost always go full sightstone if i have the cash. They may be right in their evaluation. But in order for me to be right I have to influence the game through vision in a way the other support can't.

Yeah, so if you do well in lane, you snowball that not only in item/stat value, but also in vision control. That just seems like overkill.

I don't see why support should be unfun. "Don't farm. Don't build cool items. Don't get gold -- and when you do, spend it on vision." Remove the ties vision has to gold (or at least make it a flat upgrade cost across the board for all people with more variety of trinkets) and now you can open up cool support builds. You could even expound on the three starting support items and branch out those builds a bit more because now supports won't need to spend that first 800g on a sightstone and can put a little more into their upgrades.

Dunno. I just feel like having vision be tied to gold really snowballs the advantage and limits the design space of the support role. Make vision universal and suddenly snowballs aren't so snowbally and supports may actually have fun build options/masteries available.

[animorpherv1]

Riot doesn't like diversity, Riot likes enforced meta.

AP Yi, Tryndamere, AD Fizz, etc. All of those are BAD and GO AGAINST what the champion's normal weaknesses are - or in some cases remove them entirely, making it really freaking confusing and hard when you're playing against that champion literally forever until you see a completed item in most cases. There's much more to this, as well in other ways. Basically these builds are removing counterplay from a champion.

AP Ezreal, as an example, is still a thing that exists. And before you cry about runeglaive, if a jungle item is being used by laners it's stupid op or has major problems on the item that need to be changed.

[Voidedmafia]

But doesn't Runeglaive cover AP Ez's ramp-up time and reliance on his W for damage (at least, according to Jatt; I personally haven't and probly never will play AP Ez)

[animorpherv1]

But doesn't Runeglaive cover AP Ez's ramp-up time and reliance on his W for damage (at least, according to Jatt; I personally haven't and probly never will play AP Ez)

The point is less so about runeglaive and more so that off-meta things can exist so long as they don't fuck with a champion's weaknesses. Runeglaive is still a perfect example because it removed Ezreals' weaknesses when he built AP - so they removed all the cool things about Runeglaive instead of destroying AP Ezreal.

[zoraster]

I've never minded buying a sightstone as support. If I do well in lane (along with my partner) I get an early sightstone early and can assert vision for not just me but also (Typically) my jungle and mid laner, thus allowing me to make more of a difference. If that were taken away from me by reducing the support's role in early-game vision, I'd be sad.

Also it means that if I prioritize vision differently than the opposing support we can weigh which is more important. Some people like to get their talisman/targon's going before shelling out for a sightstone. I almost always go full sightstone if i have the cash. They may be right in their evaluation. But in order for me to be right I have to influence the game through vision in a way the other support can't.

Yeah, so if you do well in lane, you snowball that not only in item/stat value, but also in vision control. That just seems like overkill.

I don't see why support should be unfun. "Don't farm. Don't build cool items. Don't get gold -- and when you do, spend it on vision." Remove the ties vision has to gold (or at least make it a flat upgrade cost across the board for all people with more variety of trinkets) and now you can open up cool support builds. You could even expound on the three starting support items and branch out those builds a bit more because now supports won't need to spend that first 800g on a sightstone and can put a little more into their upgrades.

Dunno. I just feel like having vision be tied to gold really snowballs the advantage and limits the design space of the support role. Make vision universal and suddenly snowballs aren't so snowbally and supports may actually have fun build options/masteries available.

I have a ton of fun as support. Not having to farm is a plus, not a negative. I don't know what you mean by "fun" builds really.

To be fair, soraka is kind of boring except for those occasions where you get to frustrate the other team.

[mykonian]

alas, panzer is no more.

but we get reck!

[mykonian]

I guess I could expand on that post.

As long as items scale with one another, it'll make sense to funnel more gold into fewer players. People who end up getting less would buy non scaling stuff.

As long as vision can be gained and lost and this is even only marginally tied to money, this is a lot of value, which cannot scale.

The first I don't think riot could break if they wanted to. The second I suspect they don't want to because it actually creates a form of macro strategy. So throughout the years we've actually seen the opposite happen, where in pro play the jungler becomes more and more a slightly more farmed support.

[Venmar]

I main jungle atm and Support is usually the 2nd or 3rd role I go to if I don't get jungle (depends on how I feel, I like Top and ADC more sometimes), but Support is by no means unfun or boring, it can be thrilling to make sick plays on Thresh or Leona, and being the player that grabs your team by the balls and tried to establish vision control is refreshing and fun in its own way.

In other news, what does everyone think of Volibear? I've been thinking of playing for Volly in the jungle but i'm not sure if he's worth the risk given as he's rarely played. How good is he right now in this meta?

[animorpherv1]

In other news, what does everyone think of Volibear? I've been thinking of playing for Volly in the jungle but i'm not sure if he's worth the risk given as he's rarely played. How good is he right now in this meta?

First of all, Volibear support is hilarious. Try it.

Second of all, Volibear is good but not great - you can't pick him blind more often than not him because a lot of squishy champs are good kiters atm, but volibear excels when you can sit on a person because of your passive - not many champs can kill a 3.5khp tank twice before the die.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

In other news, what does everyone think of Volibear? I've been thinking of playing for Volly in the jungle but i'm not sure if he's worth the risk given as he's rarely played. How good is he right now in this meta?

It depends on what you're doing!

If you're trying to climb the ladder, stick with 1 champ you know best.

If you're playing casual normals, go nuts.

[Gendaberry]

In other news, what does everyone think of Volibear? I've been thinking of playing for Volly in the jungle but i'm not sure if he's worth the risk given as he's rarely played. How good is he right now in this meta?

Voli isn't the best jungle in the game, but if you find him fun you can make him work. Individual skill matters FAR more then your champion pick does outside of the very top of the ladder. I know someone who got to Diamond playing only barrier/exhaust support Poppy, and by support I mean Targon's into full damage. You can make pretty much anything work if you put in the effort until the top of the ladder.

That being said if all you care about is winning, I don't think Voli is the best in this meta where most of the adcs played are stuff like Vayne/Trist/Kalista who can kite the hell out of you pretty easily. He's a pretty good pick into comps that can't just dance around him, but that isn't very common currently.