Mini 1726: Netherspite's Semi-Open Role Madness [Game Over]

[Heartless]

I think the mafia were significantly overpowered in this particular setup. They had an extra kill with the kidnapper, an extra member in the judge, and a way to hijack one of the town's lynches.

I think if there ends up being a judge, scum should get significantly less power or town should get significantly more.

[ika]

I think the mafia were significantly overpowered in this particular setup. They had an extra kill with the kidnapper, an extra member in the judge, and a way to hijack one of the town's lynches.

I think if there ends up being a judge, scum should get significantly less power or town should get significantly more.

well actualy kidnapper/jailor shouldnt be able to jail when lynch occurs

[Shiro]

I see people saying these kinds of things all the time in postgame discussions and I think it's a really crappy and unsportsmanlike thing to say, Shiro. The insinuation is "I was scum and you called me scum but you really didn't catch me as scum." I get that you're trying to protect your ego about your scum game, but it robs us of our due credit for having the good read. The fact of the matter is that you were playing toward a scum win condition, it showed in your posting, and we picked up on it. Statements like the one I quoted are just ridiculous because you don't really know what you'd do as town. Because you weren't town.

I am truthfully scumread every game by town for the reason of posts a lot of cutsy fluff and is sheepish despite my alignment that I have made it a town tell when people call me scum for it. I am not trying to diminish your town play infact if you look at the mafia PT i made a remark that the judge pretty much saved us from it, Unless I am oblivious to something I do differently depending on what I am on teh subject

If you think I said it to protect my ego then I am sorry tbh I don't actually think I have a good scum play

[Netherspite]

I think the mafia were significantly overpowered in this particular setup. They had an extra kill with the kidnapper, an extra member in the judge, and a way to hijack one of the town's lynches.

I think if there ends up being a judge, scum should get significantly less power or town should get significantly more.

In original setup at sc2mafia Jailor/Kidnapper can't jail/kidnap if there was a lynch.
However, MS meta is to never go for a no-lynch so this will just render these roles VT.
I think, the lynch should make them not be able to execute someone while still able to jail.

===

Judge is overpowered only if there is mass execution in action.
Also I think mass execution should reduce the day deadline. May be the Court should do so as well.

[Antihero]

i think judge should be moved up to full blown scum role instead of neutral

[Antihero]

Judge is overpowered only if there is mass execution in action.
Also I think mass execution should reduce the day deadline. May be the Court should do so as well.

marshall really isn't something that NEEDS a scum counter b/c the role isn't inherently broken.

the ability to hijack one of the lynches p much makes lylo come a day early (which is HUGE when scum pretty much have a traitor-like role anyway).

i think you underestimate how powerful the judge is, lemongrab.

[ika]

i think judge should be moved up to full blown scum role instead of neutral

No its shouldnt. its very weak overall.

if you change marshall for mayor jsudge is indefintely weaker. also give it that i have to live to endgame and if i die at any poitn (btw if its not clear im not night immune) i also lose

jsudge has very little power in the end other then being anonmous player who can speak for scum

pedit: netter is right we remove multi lyncha dn tell me how much power jusge has

[ika]

also jsuge main thing is to counter a crier cus if crier exist they jsut talk at night and confirm themselfs.

even if they take a lynch away it can still end up on scum. just look at the game here you guys nearly had me on lynch judges i very flickel

[ika]

In original setup at sc2mafia Jailor/Kidnapper can't jail/kidnap if there was a lynch.
However, MS meta is to never go for a no-lynch so this will just render these roles VT.
I think, the lynch should make them not be able to execute someone while still able to jail.

i dissagree mostl cus as it happend in this game, gf gets jailed its cornered to remove scums power. lynch is the thing that removes jailros true power and thats the jailing

[Antihero]

ika, with all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about?

even w/o marshall, a scum team + judge can theoretically win with just one "not groupscum" lynch.

[ika]

ika, with all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about?

even w/o marshall, a scum team + judge can theoretically win with just one "not groupscum" lynch.

Im talkign about how judge came into existance and its primary reason for exstisting in the first place.

your still missing the big picutre here though that there are about 4 diffrent counters to judge to begin with that i can think of

1) vig
2) lynch
3) night kill
4) not being able to be an existable role

i mean what were to happen if we lycnhed delann first or get scum lynched or jester killed the gf?

what happens when arson still existed and jsut decided to burn me instead?

there so many other incitdents where judge is the weak role out of it that it is deserving to be neutral

[Netherspite]

@Antihero

The problem is the Scum does not know who is the Judge.
And Judge does not know who is the Scum either.
The skills of determining each other is the key to playing Judge to its full power.
Putting Judge into the Scum actually empowers him rather than weakens.

Probably the increased vote power should be reduced to balance this role.

[Antihero]

1) vig
2) lynch
3) night kill
4) not being able to be an existable role

you can say this for literally any role you can imagine.

that doesn't make the role any less overpowered.

and you can theorycraft all day about shoulda' woulda' coulda'. when you give town no room for error, you're going to see town... not winning a lot.

is there a statistic for how often town wins when there's a judge in the setup from your homesite?

[ika]

Probably the increased vote power should be reduced to balance this role.

I think next time judge should have 2 votes instead of 3. it should mirror on mayor though if you go though with it.

[Antihero]

Probably the increased vote power should be reduced to balance this role.

yeah... i think it can be reduced to...

zero.

you're already chopping town off at the knees by fucking the posting and voting mechanic.

[Netherspite]

is there a statistic for how often town wins when there's a judge in the setup from your homesite?

Judges lose a lot.
Most of the time they are not even get to use the Court.
Or use it but at wrong time and gain no advantage for the scum because the lynch is used on scum/neutral benign.
Alternatively people can just go for no-lynch when they see the Court.
Many things happen.
What happened in this game happens roughly 5-10% of time when Judge is generated in the setup.

[Netherspite]

you're already chopping town off at the knees by fucking the posting and voting mechanic.

This is more about individual skills of town, scum and judge.
If you have poor scum and poor judge they won't use all of this posting and voting mechanic to its advantage.
If you have poor town they will just do what judge says and will be doomed.

Also I think I should rather post some vote counts during the Court.

[Antihero]

@Antihero

The problem is the Scum does not know who is the Judge.
And Judge does not know who is the Scum either.
The skills of determining each other is the key to playing Judge to its full power.
Putting Judge into the Scum actually empowers him rather than weakens.

judge doesn't have to know who the scum are he just has to be cognizant of the numbers.
scum accidentally bussing the judge isn't going to happen often so relying on that to balance things out... isn't going to balance things out.

[ika]

1) vig
2) lynch
3) night kill
4) not being able to be an existable role

you can say this for literally any role you can imagine.

that doesn't make the role any less overpowered.

and you can theorycraft all day about shoulda' woulda' coulda'. when you give town no room for error, you're going to see town... not winning a lot.

is there a statistic for how often town wins when there's a judge in the setup from your homesite?

not for killing neutrals they get immunites so should i now give witch/autior and all other immunites and make vig useless?

it does, judges being imminue would be insaely op cus if you get a bunch of killing or get targeted you lsoe if your killed

town prob wins a good 40% of the time, other times it goes to mafia and derps cus its a bunch of trolls

as for judge win out of the 600ish games i played when it existed i have seen about 30 of those win.

most time they get nked, they get lycnhed, they will call court and get lycnhed, they get killed by scums. the few times i have seen them win was either:

A)town all dying to vet
B) scum massure cus "lolz 3 sk"
C) 10 judges and 4 scums and one town or some shit stup like that

[Antihero]

you're already chopping town off at the knees by fucking the posting and voting mechanic.

This is more about individual skills of town, scum and judge.
If you have poor scum and poor judge they won't use all of this posting and voting mechanic to its advantage.
If you have poor town they will just do what judge says and will be doomed.

Also I think I should rather post some vote counts during the Court.

it doesn't take good scum to hijack the lynch. it takes an understanding of basic math.

[ika]

@Antihero

The problem is the Scum does not know who is the Judge.
And Judge does not know who is the Scum either.
The skills of determining each other is the key to playing Judge to its full power.
Putting Judge into the Scum actually empowers him rather than weakens.

judge doesn't have to know who the scum are he just has to be cognizant of the numbers.
scum accidentally bussing the judge isn't going to happen often so relying on that to balance things out... isn't going to balance things out.

like i said, judge gets nked more often by the scum team cus they are playing wlel and they dont know,

go get sc2 and play a could hundred games and you will relaize true imballance

pedit: again what happens if we lynched delann and you and jester killed another scum? does that make jusgde still oped? or not as much

[Antihero]

if a judge can manage to call court and get lynched, he called court at the wrong time

[Netherspite]

@Antihero

The problem is the Scum does not know who is the Judge.
And Judge does not know who is the Scum either.
The skills of determining each other is the key to playing Judge to its full power.
Putting Judge into the Scum actually empowers him rather than weakens.

judge doesn't have to know who the scum are he just has to be cognizant of the numbers.
scum accidentally bussing the judge isn't going to happen often so relying on that to balance things out... isn't going to balance things out.

They can NK him without knowing who he is.
Judge can push scum at the Court without knowing who they are.

===

In this specific game it was about the players who left for the town and for the scum.
If you would draw another role and be still alive at Day 2 you would nail the scum easily.

[Antihero]

pedit: again what happens if we lynched delann and you and jester killed another scum? does that make jusgde still oped? or not as much

so in order to win this game i had to have dismantled the spiffeh wagon FIRST THING or else i'm fucked.

that's kind of an unreasonable thing to put on town.

[Netherspite]

if a judge can manage to call court and get lynched, he called court at the wrong time

That's the point.
You need to know the 'right time'.
You need to NOT accidentally lynch the scum or get lynched yourself during the Court.
You need to convince town to vote with 'Court' who is known to most likely be Judge who is playing against them.
That's too much 'if' for the role to be overpowered.
You need skills to play it right.
You can't yolo win if you are poor player.