Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[The_Relentless]

@Relentless

You threw down an initial vote on Chocola, switched it over to Sakura, then back to Chocola. When the VC said 0 votes, you commented about having to rethink your case. In the event that it's not just RVS luls, could you please clarify some more on this?

it's a joke, the joke is that I said I was voting Chocola because he had no votecount shenanigans

I'm interested in an explanation for why Sakura has managed to avoid attracting votes from both you and Relentless now;

I thought she was scummy then realized it was based on a misconception and unvoted. now I'm town-reading her. Also apparently you're reading my posts but aren't, like, acknowledging anything I'm saying in them. That's weird.

i don't have any sort of town read on any of the following: bork, kagami, shadoweh, gaiden, chocola

besides what borf said, explain sky_paladin and Katsuki? which are the scummiest of your non-townreads and which are the least town of your townreads?

I only have a couple townreads but I'm not getting any strong scumreads either because all the big debate club posts are from my town-reads! my first thought is to quicklynch Kilga because he said Yukari is a bad Touhou. my second thought is to ask Kilga why he's still voting Shadoweh over Sakura Hana and what he thinks about the defenses that have been made for her so far. re: "Sympathizing with pie over Sakura in their spat": does this mean you think the argument is scum/town?

[The_Relentless]

my case on Chocola is also a joke, for the record

[The_Relentless]

@Sky_Paladin:

what did you intend to get out of your question toward me?

[Sky_Paladin]

@GuyInFreezer

Are you Yuyuko?

Re: Sakura/Pie
The conversation between the two of them looks entirely fabricated to me. I despise appeals to emotion. I'm also concerned that the Pie's reason for voting is 'bias' because that bias is not explained, while the contrast between the temp-vote on Sakura and the vote on me is not.

I'm generally satisfied with Relentless explanation except that it seems a touch excessive for 'it was just an RVS joke vote', when I specifically asked him in my post 'Is it an RVS joke?'
There is another reason I asked Relentless to explain their vote which I will clarify at the right time/probably day 2.

Re: Muffin at -4 permanently
I personally see this is a town lean since later in the game it would be fairly easy for scum to cherry tap and blow a day/win the game. When we get to lower numbers this will become a tempting option for scum, iirc there was a similar 'town win' mechanic on Flandre in Upick2. The apparent unlimited gladiate is a cause for concern since it effectively undermines town day phase; it means we'd never be able to lynch Muffin even if we wanted to (as he has implied lynching Sakura would be impossible this day phase).

I'm really interested to see more of the inactive players posting.

By the way, I've seen more posts from Gaiden this game than I've ever seen from him in the other games combined. I've never seen scum!Gaiden though. Is this meaningful?

p-edit:
If there was an association between you/Chocola.

[zMuffinMan]

am I scummy for my opinion on that?

a bit, but not because you hold the opinion per se, more because of the way you're going about it.

take #198, for example. this line:

I'd be objectively right about it as scum too.

doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me from the perspective that you're town considering the possibility that i'm scum

i have issues with posts like #65 for the same reason

i don't really think a lot of the way you're going about assessing things so far is coming from a town mindset. mostly because of the way you're phrasing things and the nuances in the things you're saying

[Sky_Paladin]

I forgot my Muffin conclusion; if scum had access to an unlimited gladiate, it would be impossible to lynch them. OTOH in town's hands, it's kind of like an unlimited-conditional-vigilante.
So I would like to see Muffin use his unlimited gladiate as often as possible, just to be sure it really is unlimited.

[zMuffinMan]

oh, and that part i quoted about #198 i also have an issue with because it seems like over-compensating

[The_Relentless]

take #198, for example. this line:

I'd be objectively right about it as scum too.

doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me from the perspective that you're town considering the possibility that i'm scum

idk I'm townreading bork and I think this is just rhetoric, I say this stuff as town too

[zMuffinMan]

I think that opening has a specific goal

i agree

I think scum would be worried about a locked in plan like that biting them in the ass if the gamestate evolves in an unexpected way

i don't really see this

[zMuffinMan]

explain Feysal/ns/thdgkdms/Kilga

gut gut gut gut

[zMuffinMan]

I think this is just rhetoric

i disagree and i think the way he's being careful with all his words this game looks more like overly cautious scum than anything

[The_Relentless]

he's being careful with all his words this game

is this a meta thing cuz if so I don't think I've seen him play before, do you have examples?

[zMuffinMan]

or scum have weird voting mechanics

I have weird voting mechanics; it's not hard to imagine others might too.

assuming all that stuff is true it's pretty ridiculous sounding regardless of which side it's on

p-edit: I see the quadruple-vote.

I'm just saying the more crazy power you put in the game the less obvious "X must be town/scum" is

no, just a general thing

[zMuffinMan]

er didn't really mean for those quotes to be there but well, they illustrate the point i'm making anyway. was gonna go collecting all the quotes i didn't like but hey whatever

[notscience]

I despise people who think others care what they despise

[zMuffinMan]

to be clear, my issue with #65 is "i have weird voting mechanics ergo scum probably does too" which is a weird assumption to make in the first place, but also is just very weirdly phrased from a town perspective when the much simpler statement is "i could easily see scum having weird voting mechanics" without having to mention himself - this sort of self-consciousness doesn't come across as town to me

[Sky_Paladin]

I don't really care what others think about what I think, I'm just getting my thoughts out so that I don't have to think them anymore. It leaves room for more ideas to appear.

[Sky_Paladin]

Wait fuck I keep getting NotScience/GuyInFreezer mixed up.

[Sky_Paladin]

Actually, that's relevant.

Notty, did you come in here just to comment about that? Why do you care?

[zMuffinMan]

explain Feysal/ns/thdgkdms/Kilga

gut gut gut gut

actually i do have somewhat legitimate reasoning for noddy but i thought it was funnier to respond like this anyway

[zMuffinMan]

explain sky_paladin and Katsuki

i don't really have any issue with anything sky paladin has written so far
cupcake is a cupcake

which are the scummiest of your non-townreads and which are the least town of your townreads

gaiden and bork
feysal and thd

[notscience]

explain Feysal/ns/thdgkdms/Kilga

gut gut gut gut

actually i do have somewhat legitimate reasoning for noddy but i thought it was funnier to respond like this anyway

Is it because I'm adorable

[zMuffinMan]

yeah sure

[pieguyn]

More important than do you think I'm wrong: do you think I'm scummy for feeling this way? You are implying you do in 91

yes - what you're doing here looks similar to the kind of thing I'd do if I saw someone getting cleared/widely town read and wanted to stop it. specifically I take issue with you claiming things like, "if he's scum he's lying about some aspect of his role" and "we haven't seen the gladiator in action" when in reality this is unreasonable. it makes no sense for someone to make up something like that most of the time, and even if they are there isn't a point in discussing it until it actually comes up.

I'm fully aware that there may be some way to counter it if it's a scum role, but it didn't read like you were employing critical thinking to figure out how his role would make sense as either alignment. I would expect a town approach to go something like "I think X and Y might be potential counters to zmuffin's role as a scum role" (which tbh was my approach when I first saw the claim although I kept, and am keeping, silent about it) or "I can think of a few ways scum-zmuffin would lie about his claim here" (this is what Kilga did); on the other hand, what you said was akin to "not a town claim because he could be lying". there is no depth of thought here and it's something I'd expect scum to be more likely to do than town.

supposing zmuffin is scum, how do you think he could be lying about what he's claimed and what strategic value would he gain from it? (although as I write this I just thought of something, but it's a minor point and still wouldn't fully explain how his role would function as a scum role.)

the Sakura read was a separate issue from the zmuffin read, which was compounded bc your approach to noddy in EOSD was to come out the gate intending to town read him and I thought you might have been doing the same thing here. I think the posts you quoted were fakeable, but I don't have a problem with your explanation for it.

I want to say pie is null but trying to sort Sakura fast is probably pie being town and stuff.

read in progress here but tonewise I agree

do you think "tone" is a good reason to town read me?

[pieguyn]

I have bork and shadoweh for town, biased toward town on thugkiddums for reasons outside of play.

why on bork?

I'm also concerned that the Pie's reason for voting is 'bias' because that bias is not explained, while the contrast between the temp-vote on Sakura and the vote on me is not.

the "bias" is that I have a bunch of experience with all of noddy/Sakura/bork whereas I only have the two games with you.