stop fakeclaiming as town!: the case for lynch all liars

[Antihero]

so there have been a bunch of threads about fakeclaiming, and i've mostly been in the "moderate" camp that said town should usually tell the truth except a few circumstances.

i'm not anymore. now i think town should just always tell the truth. period.

the idea behind this is simple. when it comes to roleclaiming, scum HAVE to lie. even if they end up claiming vt. they don't actually have a town role pm so they have to make one up. town don't have the same problem. they actually HAVE a town role pm so they don't need to make one up. does that sound overly simplistic? i don't think it is. i think people underestimate the utility of being able to remove yourself from the lynchpool with a good claim OR the power to ferret out fakeclaiming scum. when you lie as town, you nullify those. you add to the confusion that's ALREADY inherent in an UNINFORMED situation. you keep yourself firmly in the lynch pool because you look really sketchy and the rest of the town isn't going to be able to parse your exact motivation. but most destructively, you contribute to creating a site meta where it's OK for town to fakeclaim. and that's just... awful.

now, i thought of a few counterarguments that people will undoubtedly pull out:

"i fakeclaim all the time. then whoever calls me on fakeclaiming must be scum so i vote them."

yeah, that's wonderful.

please stay away from me.

"but this one time i fakeclaimed as town on this super dooper cool awesome gambit. i totally rocked the game and won after i got finished wrestling a bear and sticking a sparkler up my ass at the same time."

ok... first off, i really don't believe you OR i don't care enough to actually read the troll game you're going to link me to and tell you why you either lucked out or didn't really help town win.
second, i don't give two shits about whatever isolated incident you want to brag about. i've been here a while and here's how i've seen fakeclaiming go: crap, stinky crap stew, cauldron full of boiling feces

you know what the common thread of all those are? they're well intentioned gambits trying to do something heroic and they did a LOT of damage. to town.

"but i have to claim X role in order to draw the nightkill or avoid the nightkill..."

let me stop you right there.

your second guessing who scum are going to nk is no way to do things, because ultimately it's impossible to reliably "draw" or "avoid" the nightkill. that's because the scum kill is based on a confluence of SO many factors... pr's, reads, leadership, hell sometimes i see scum kill people they just flat out don't like.

just do your best while you're still alive and afterwards you can hold your head up high knowing you did your best.

"but...but...but i HAVE to fakeclaim because otherwise those other idiots are going to lose the game..."

...and we arrive at what i think is the true center of why town fakeclaim. there's always at least a little bit of an component of narcissism in fakeclaiming town. the underlying philosophy is: you can't tell the rest of the town the truth because those other morons who are beneath you can't be trusted with the truth and you're their only true savior.

and my answer is: get over yourself.

mafia is a team game. as either alignment, you HAVE to rely on your teammates. this is true ESPECIALLY as town. you're not the lone badass that's going to singlehandedly win the game. that doesn't even exist. 99.999% of town wins are through TEAM effort and there's nothing that disrupts that more than misinformation. scum already supply enough of that, you don't need to help them.

tl:dr
don't fakeclaiming as town.

for realz.

[Majiffy]

Fakeclaiming is dumb.




---
Which is also why mods should make games such that scum aren't required to make up good fakeclaims, because a bad fakeclaim can lose you the game, and no fakeclaim at all is just as bad.


PROVIDE YOUR SCUM WITH LEGITIMATELY WELL-THOUGHT-OUT FAKECLAIMS, OR MAKE IT SUCH THAT ANY CLAIM COULD BE OBVIOUSLY INHERENTLY VALID

[Ythan]

I want to be seen publicly agreeing with this OP for later.

[SilverWolf]

I've seen town fakeclaim in games and it hurts town every time. Once the tracker claimed a guilty on a VT because he thought the guy was scum and got an innocent person lynched. Once the tracker, different game, cc'd a cop claim and got the actual cop lynched-then got himself lynched the next day, once a VT fakeclaimed vig and ended up outing the tracker who he threatened to shoot that night.

So yeah, my experiences with fakeclaiming town have been shit so I agree-don't fucking fakeclaim as town. Just no.

Oh, and guess what-town lost all those games. 2 out of the 3 I was also town and lost and pissed. The other one I was scum and loved every minute of it.

[GuyInFreezer]

Best way to draw a nightkill is to drop a subtle "PR slip," or simple being vocal and right. I prefer the latter.

The only time that fakeclaiming as town is acceptable is a very specific situation with the 'gambit' being "gain or null" with no risk to follow. Even then, there are usually an alternative solution that is easier to pull.

One shouldn't fakeclaim as town for survival. One shouldn't fakeclaim as town for persuasion advantage. One shouldn't fakeclaim to keep up with one's meta. (Forcing a negative action upon self just to keep up with one's meta is stupid from the beginning and is a very good indication that one should change his playstyle.) The only time when fakeclaiming as town is even acceptable is (1) You know damn well about what you're doing. (2) There is absolutely no way that lying will backfire in any way. (3) It gains a high advantage if succeeds. Most people fails at (1). (2) is an extremely rare situation. (3) is also an extremely rare situation and there are usually better and more simple alternatives.

[Firebringer]

I must stand on the opposing side of this (because AH) . You should only lie as town. You should tell the truth as scum all the time.

[GuyInFreezer]

With that said, just to take a jab at anti, there is no reason to not claim macho townie as bomb because nobody ever uses macho modifier ever to even fear a counterclaim.

[Antihero]

i....

would strongly consider lynching a macho townie claim.

[ika]

What about doc claiming vt in mass claim?

(Yes I'm jabbing at anti too)

[Antihero]

any scum dumb enough to kill you for claiming "macho townie" should be just as easily caught just by straight up, old fashioned scumhunting. what's MORE likely going to make scum kill you is removing yourself from the lynch pool or having good reads.

which... happens when you just play mafia instead of worrying about what the most creative way to be a jackass is.

[ika]

Anti what about mod lying about a mass poisoner? Should mods do that and make fake claims?

[GuyInFreezer]

any scum dumb enough to kill you for claiming "macho townie" should be just as easily caught just by straight up, old fashioned scumhunting. what's MORE likely going to make scum kill you is removing yourself from the lynch pool or having good reads.

which... happens when you just play mafia instead of worrying about what the most creative way to be a jackass is.

I mean obviously the best way to claim macho townie is "accidentally" slipping that you're a macho.

[Antihero]

Anti what about mod lying about a mass poisoner? Should mods do that and make fake claims?

when the game is over and everyone's stopped playing, yes.

[GuyInFreezer]

Also, generic scumhunting was implied. My example is one of the very rare situation where fakeclaiming as town is actually helpful anyway. Bomb's job is to draw scum's NK and convincingly claiming macho in one way of another helps further the role's goal. It doesn't backfire like claiming something else as a PGO and it furthers town's win condition without it having to be a gamblefest.

Similar example is tracker in newbie setup claiming cop after lynching scum Day 1 and tracking doctor Night 1. Nothing can possibly go wrong with that.

[Antihero]

any scum dumb enough to kill you for claiming "macho townie" should be just as easily caught just by straight up, old fashioned scumhunting. what's MORE likely going to make scum kill you is removing yourself from the lynch pool or having good reads.

which... happens when you just play mafia instead of worrying about what the most creative way to be a jackass is.

I mean obviously the best way to claim macho townie is "accidentally" slipping that you're a macho.

alright... so what do you do after a town rolecop investigates you and tells everyone you're not really macho?

OR a scum rolecop investigates you and figures out you're full of shit?

OR [a million other scenarios where claiming macho would flop]

MEANWHILE anyone who doesn't have their head up their ass thinks your claim is bullshit-y (because it is) and kind of wants to lynch you for it.

[Psyche]

op is not a case for lynch all liars

[GuyInFreezer]

If town rolecop scans a bomb, there is no reason for town rolecop to out his lies unless he doesn't know what he's doing.
If scum figures it out, oh well. No advantage. No loss. Play as normally.
If claiming macho flops, then the chance is they won't believe your bomb claim either. Play as you are a VT.

I never said it would win you the game. It does supplement to his win condition with no backfire however.

[GuyInFreezer]

I mean it's literally the same situation as a bulletproof claiming VT, with slightly more appeal as a nightkill target.

[Antihero]

Similar example is tracker in newbie setup claiming cop after lynching scum Day 1 and tracking doctor Night 1. Nothing can possibly go wrong with that.

ok, so i get the idea. you trick the scum into thinking there's no doc when really there is one.

so... when you get asked for results, you out your inno on the doc?

[Antihero]

op is not a case for lynch all liars

took some liberties w/ the title. it's more of a "i want lynch all liars to be a thing" than anything.

your snark was appreciated though. it really added to the discussion.

[wgeurts]

I fake claim as either alignment all the time, people in Steven Universe will have seen a classic example of that exploding in my hands.
Anyway, it can work as a pro town gambit. I disagree town should always claim without lies.

[BNL]

It's even worse when there are too many fake claims. I was lynched as a Tracker in a recent game I played, simply because the VT which would otherwise have been lynched (soft)claimed doctor, and I was chosen to be lynched instead as my claim wasn't believable anymore due to having 5 PRs claimed before me. (Many of them were fake, but all the PR fakeclaims were from town)

[Psyche]

op is not a case for lynch all liars

took some liberties w/ the title. it's more of a "i want lynch all liars to be a thing" than anything.

your snark was appreciated though. it really added to the discussion.

ahaha ok you asked for it

that is not at all what snark means but i'm glad to be of help
still, if you acknowledge that your thread's title is at best misleading about what your case is for and what this discussion is about, i wonder why you don't change it
especially if you don't like posts like #15

it's not that i think it would be great if your clickbaity thread titles were made as honestly as apparently your role claims are
but that it's really easy to see your op and thread title and think that maybe you believe your posts are doing work (i.e, making readers more inclined to LaL) that they just aren't or at least probably shouldn't

now getting past that
let's talk about the weaknesses of your argument
let's look at what you say is your basic case

the idea behind this is simple. when it comes to roleclaiming, scum HAVE to lie. even if they end up claiming vt. they don't actually have a town role pm so they have to make one up. town don't have the same problem. they actually HAVE a town role pm so they don't need to make one up. does that sound overly simplistic? i don't think it is. i think people underestimate the utility of being able to remove yourself from the lynchpool with a good claim OR the power to ferret out fakeclaiming scum. when you lie as town, you nullify those. you add to the confusion that's ALREADY inherent in an UNINFORMED situation. you keep yourself firmly in the lynch pool because you look really sketchy and the rest of the town isn't going to be able to parse your exact motivation. but most destructively, you contribute to creating a site meta where it's OK for town to fakeclaim. and that's just... awful.

So, let me try to parse this since it's actually not easy. The reason town shouldn't fake claim ever comes down to 2 reasons: first, fakeclaiming makes a game more confusing and second, fakeclaiming contributes to a site meta where it's okay for town to fakeclaim.

I take more issue with the second point than the first. I just don't think it's quite a correct reading of how site meta changes. If someone fakeclaims in a given game, that alone won't make it more likely that people will fakeclaim in the future. For people to decide that fakeclaiming is a worthwhile tactic, they have to see that fakeclaiming actually

works

. When someone fakeclaims and it harms the town (like in the examples you linked and as you argue generally happens), then you should expect everyone whose future play could be impacted by the fakeclaim actually increase their opposition to fakeclaiming as a tactic rather than decrease. In general, we should expect tactics that don't work to happen

less

often as a site meta evolves, not the reverse or whatever it is you think is going on that warrants a thread like this one.

It could be that maybe you believe fakeclaiming's harm to the town isn't obvious enough to most onlookers that this pattern can be guaranteed. Maybe you think people see the short-term benefits for the townies who fakeclaim (safety from the lynch pool and so forth) but maybe can't see the more subtle, long-term (but still within-game) consequences to the practice. But the threads you linked don't really showcase the subtle consequences of fakeclaiming; they show fakeclaimers outright embarrassing themselves and taking their towns down with them. So while it might be true, I just don't know if the basic elements of your vision of how fakeclaiming affects site meta is really

accurate

. I don't think fakeclaiming happens because of any site meta, but rather because of lack of acquaintance with site meta (i.e., inexperience) and probably more importantly a lack of personal skill with respect to execution and situational appraisal.

My problem with your first point is that it seems to deliberately overlook for the sake of your argument just how much the harmfulness of the supposed confusion that a fakeclaim generates for a town varies with situational factors including 1) the quality of the fakeclaim's execution, 2) the train of lynches/night actions that the claim helps cause, 3) how known the setup is. And beyond that, you seem to think that no one (or perhaps no one seriously considering a fakeclaim?) could possibly pull off a fakeclaim without looking more sketchy for doing it. But there definitely are situations where convincingly-executed fakeclaiming can be reasonably expected to help a town win a game without really making the game (too) much more confusing for the rest of the town. The problem is that those are rare and most people are too dumb (and maybe too ideological?) to make good use of them. But to resolve that there are no situations where town should fakeclaim - that's just not something anyone can do reasonably.

In one paragraph, you counter the idea that fakeclaiming can sometimes be usefully applied to influence the nightkill with the totally correct line that "it's impossible to reliably draw or avoid the nightkill". That's false in in the most relevant sense - in many cases one really can reliably draw or avoid the nightkill with a claim. It's part of why we don't encourage PR claiming during RVS. Sure a given claim in most situations won't 100% dictate a given nightkill, but no one thinks otherwise and to act if people do is just to attack a strawman. No one's going to take your claim that "ultimately it's impossible to reliably draw or avoid the nightkill" seriously.

It's similarly a strawman to equate "i'm afraid that if i give the town this information they'll misuse it" with "i'm the lone badass that's going to singlehandedly win the game". You spend the end of your post mercilessly criticizing the latter position, but it just doesn't really have much to do with the former. You could try arguing less fallaciously that "a town will always become less likely to do the optimal thing if a member fakeclaims", but this seems as obviously false as "claims don't reliably influence who gets NKed and who doesn't". If I'm wrong, there's nothing in your post that would make a reasonable person think so.

[BBmolla]

is this about people claiming mason when they're not masons

Am I just really smart because I can tell when a mason claim is real and when it's just someone saying they think X is town

[AlwaysInnocent]

Townies should not always tell the truth, but they should definitely not tell lies.