Blitz 14: Murder on Madness Mountain GAME OVER!

[Rob14]

When designing a setup intended to surprise, it's important to make the roles as different as possible, imo. At least when I designed a highly similar setup, that's what I did. Otherwise, you risk the players finding out early that it's really a 7vt/2goon game.

I'm surprised Ythan even put in a deputy and cop-enabler. Putting in a doc-enabler and nurse as well would be extremely repetitive and unlikely to surprise players. I mean, those roles can obviously do nothing. Nexus is way less obvious. Ascetic is less obvious. Even miller is a bit less obvious.

For example, consider the role list from my game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=5307692

Town Reflexive Ninja Rolestopper
Town Suicidal Ninja Seer
Town Nexus
Town Odd Night Tracker
Vanilla Townie
Town Day Watcher
Town Reflexive Ninja Rolestopper

Mafia Ninja JOAT Lover
Mafia Ninja Godfather Bomb Lover

[Firebringer]

Like if you read davesaz ISO, one of his strongest scum reads was you Rob.

Why would Ranger, keep either me or you alive when we were BOTH heavily scum reading her earlier.
It doesn't make much sense.

[Ranger]

I have good reason to trust your claim.

I figured that, with absinthe's miller claim, there were one of two possibilities: either we had a miller, a cop, a nurse (me), and a doctor, a viable combo if there's a scum counter (e.g. roleblocker), OR the title indicated that this was Role Madness Mountainous. I wasn't sure which it was, but either way, I was sure that given I am a nurse and absinthe claimed miller that absinthe would not be scum fakeclaiming miller. Thus, I had good reason to trust the claim.

I think I do, actually.
Ricastle is town.
absinthe may be equal to Ricastle, but Ricastle's town.

Here, I recognize Ricastle thinking I'm a cop, and claiming to be a deputy. I further file it away under the same logic as above, tipped further towards the Role Madness Mountainous.

And this is probably not going to help.

But I think we can actually break the game if we massclaim.

Yes I realize I'm the lead lynch candidate right now and proposing a massclaim doesn't do me any favors. I'll go first, but only if we get at least three players agreeing to the massclaim. I had a suspicion yesterday, but I wasn't sure. Now, I'm almost positive. I really, really think a massclaim will win us the game, and I want it to happen before I cast a vote.

Here, I show that I know the game is Role Madness Mountainous. This means, of course, that I have a worthless role.

For the record: still believe we could have broken the game, because, again--Jackal did not appear to have a safeclaim. Firebringer refused to claim when put at L-1, implying a lack of safeclaim there, too. (I'll cover why Firebringer's scum after I answer your questions, Rob.)

If the setup is what I think it is, it's misleading, not bastard.
I think that massclaim will help reveal who the mafia are.

Reinforced here.

I knew Ricastle was a deputy. (That's why Ricastle became my top-townread.) You know why I wouldn't kill them.

Here, I state that I knew Ricastle's role and why Ricastle became my top townread. I wouldn't have killed Ricastle because I knew the setup was Madness Mountainous, so killing for being a PR would be worthless, since everyone's a PR.

I knew Ricastle was a Deputy, yes. As in, a backup cop.
The reasons for this are obvious, though I'm not pointing them out right now for good reason.

The reasons for this were because I'm a backup doctor, and I knew what to look for when it came to 'crumbing.

Ricastle said he would fill my shoes, mistakenly believing I was a cop. As a nurse, I recognized that because my job as a nurse in a normal game would be to fill the shoes of a doctor.

Everyone's a PR, Rob.
I knew Ricastle was a harmless PR.
Deputies are no threat until a cop dies.
And I knew Ricastle was a Deputy.

Here I flat-out say that I know the game's setup is everyone being a PR, and Ricastle was a harmless PR. I knew that because I am a harmless PR.

Yes we do. If you were actually sincere in us thinking the same thing, you know as well as I do everyone's a PR.

PR does not mean "has an action". PR means "is not a vanilla townie". And by that definition, my statement is accurate.

There is more to it than that, of course, as you should know. But it does not invalidate my statement.

Here I further claim to be that type.

As indicated by the title: Madness (as in, role madness) Mountain (as in, Mountainous, no PRs).

I wasn't sure of this D1. I had a suspicion, about 60%, about it, but the other was that my role was real and so too was Ricastle's and so too was absinthe's.

Here I make it pretty clear that my role is similar to Ricastle's. Because I'm a nurse, to Ricastle's deputy.

I stated on D1 that I had reason to believe your claim. This made Ricastle, mistakenly, believe I was a cop. (My role led me to believe either a role madness mountainous game as laid out above, making your claim likely to come from town, or that there would be a cop in the game.) Ricastle then 'crumbed replacing me. The connection was easy to make from there, and when I realized Ricastle was 'crumbing town deputy, the method for which Ricastle was doing so was extremely sincere, leading me to believe that was Ricastle's role, exactly the same reason I townread you, only even stronger.

Here I flat-out say that I'm not a cop-related role, but the sincerity behind Ricastle's role made me know Ricastle was town because of my own role being similar and it being familiar.

35: I state my trust in absinthe's claim.
37: Ricastle indicates I'm town.
89: Ricastle states desire to one day be like me.
Me not understanding the statement (because I thought Ricastle was talking about play when we've never had a finished game), I post 92. (This is also, incidentally, the alleged lining-up-mislynches post.)
Ricastle answers in 96, and I realize what Ricastle is thinking, posting 112.

That's how I knew Ricastle was a deputy.
I knew Ricastle wasn't a threat.
So why would I kill Ricastle? It'd accomplish nothing but eliminating an ally of mine.

Elaborated on in here, too.

I was talking to Ricastle, because Ricastle wanted to know why I wasn't sure Ricastle was town. So I explained. Then, immediately following this, Ricastle gave a very strong hint as to being a deputy

Here I reinforce it.

Also, explicitly role madness, just to reinforce my point. Ricastle was a role, CN was a role, absinthe is a role, I'm also a role.

This is the last one where I say it.

[Ranger]

If Ranger was legit Nurse, wouldn't my role make the most sense though? So I don't see why Ranger was leaning on me being scum.

My reasons for thinking you're scum are not because of your claim. It's a good claim, and it's the main reason I'm not 100% convinced it's you as scum, but the evidence is strong, and as soon as I get the chance to post (as in, I don't need to actively answer questions and can have 10 minutes to build the case), I can show why.

[Firebringer]

VOTE: Rob13

[Firebringer]

UNVOTE: Rob13

[Rob14]

All of that is about setup, though. There's nothing specific to nurse. I could maybe see it if you lumped yourself with only Ricastle when talking, but you lump yourself with {Ricastle, absinthe} and then {Ricastle, absinthe, CN}. So I don't really see a convincing nurse crumb here.

That's not to say it's scummy; I kind of believe you that

you

believed you crumbed. But it's null without a specific thing I can point to and say here's a nurse crumb.

[Firebringer]

The more I think about it, the more I think it actually is Rob13.

I mean why is Rob13 still around?
Think about it, It makes sense why I have been around. I haven't been right all game. Why wouldn't scum keep me alive.

[Rob14]

Like if you read davesaz ISO, one of his strongest scum reads was you Rob.

Why would Ranger, keep either me or you alive when we were BOTH heavily scum reading her earlier.
It doesn't make much sense.

Because

it doesn't make any sense. Your logic here is WIFOM. As early as Night 2, scum knew they were going into 3p LyLo and that they got to choose who (besides the non-Jackal scum) was there. Whether it's you or Ranger, they had ample opportunity to try to figure out how to survive.

That's why I haven't voted you yet. You're right, the kills do look good for Ranger, but that could be because Ranger

wanted

the kills to look good for Ranger.

And quit it with that nonsense vote/unvote shit. It's unnecessary risk. Either vote or FOS.

[Firebringer]

You don't enter a LYLO situation with 2 players who are likely going to lynch you, thats not a smart move as scum at all. Even for WIFOm purposes.

[Rob14]

The more I think about it, the more I think it actually is Rob13.

I mean why is Rob13 still around?
Think about it, It makes sense why I have been around. I haven't been right all game. Why wouldn't scum keep me alive.

Half of town was ready to lynch me in the last day phase. Ranger certainly was. It's not like I'm a strong candidate for a night kill. I'm a possible mislynch. Unfortunately, that's true of all players left alive. You were never a strong town read of anyone. Ranger had substantial suspicion on them. I had substantial suspicion on me.

[Rob14]

You don't enter a LYLO situation with 2 players who are likely going to lynch you, thats not a smart move as scum at all. Even for WIFOm purposes.

Give me one second and I'll link literally my first game of mafia ever where I was scum and did exactly this. And won because of it.

[Firebringer]

I was strong town reading you Rob.
Davesaz was the only one I think was strong scum reading you.

And I don't remember huge day 1 pressure on you..

[Rob14]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23651

In a difficult situation where you have substantial suspicion on you, it's a hail mary play that actually works very well.

[Rob14]

Day 2 pressure, not Day 1 pressure.

[Rob14]

Actually, looks like I was wrong. Most people went on Jackal, not me, but several of them did that because of deadlines. Looking in reads lists, they were scum reading me or leaning that way.

[Rob14]

Vote Count

Jackal711: Ranger, absinthe, Rob13 (3)
Ranger: Firebringer (1)
Firebringer: Soren (1)

Not voting: davesaz, Jackal711

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-12-25 19:40:00).

Jackea is L-1.

Hammer intent.

Because keeping him alive and perpetuating the lining up lynches narrative was dangerous to your continued existence. A scum will always kill someone town-reading them if leaving that person alive risks a scum lynch. You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument. You're just saying "He was town-reading me, so I wouldn't kill him." That's WIFOM bullshit and you know it. You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

VOTE: Ranger

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

I'm down for a Rob lynch. Lining up lynches is not a scumtell but obsessing on it is.
I'd still much prefer Jackal, and had given intent. That's another reason to suspect Rob.

[Rob14]

And Ranger, obv.

[Firebringer]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23651

In a difficult situation where you have substantial suspicion on you, it's a hail mary play that actually works very well.

Okay, lets just say for hypotheticals here:

You are scum.

Theres 3 options to go for night kill.
Me, Ranger, Davesaz.

One is town reading you (Me), Ranger (I don't rember where ranger stood), and Davesaz (scum reading you)

You would go for Davesaz?

[Firebringer]

I meant not.

[Ranger]

So...first off, we start with the nightkills...and the order they're in.

Ricastle's last non-CN scumread was Firebringer, in 133. Ricastle notes a good point in 121 about Jackal pushing the Firebringer wagon without joining it. (This becomes important later-on.)

Why this is not conclusive should be obvious: Ricastle was also scumreading Rob, stating that {Jackal, CN, Firebringer, Rob13} were his only lynch candidates. From my point of view, that means Ricastle--regardless of which of you is scum--correctly was on the trail of both scum.

However, further supporting evidence behind Firebringer being scum: Rob, you said you had figured out the setup. Since I had, I have little reason to doubt you did, too. So why did Ricastle, then, a person easily identified as being a deputy die? Ricastle's crumbs were obvious. Both of us knew the setup. What if the scumteam didn't? Jackal probably didn't pay much attention, and Firebringer has definitely claimed to have not known today, in his claim post where he said he was worthless.

This is not conclusive, though, so moving on, exhibit b: absinthe, the second nightkill. Like Ricastle, absinthe was a claimed PR. Why would Rob, or I, kill absinthe, when we both knew the setup? What if the scum didn't know, and thought absinthe's miller claim truly confirmed absinthe as being town? This, again, would point to Firebringer, yet there's more. Looking at absinthe's reads: 274 is suspicion on Soren for voting me, meaning absinthe townreads me. 262 is defending me, AND it is treating Rob as if he is town, implying that absinthe thinks Rob is town too. 198/199 reinforce this. In contrast, absinthe's only Firebringer interaction? 182.

Next we get the Soren nightkill. This is the first nightkill without Jackal influence. While Soren does vote me in one post, Soren multiple times states Firebringer suspicion: 233, 192 (191 is a Firebringer post), 172, 170, 123, 71, 42, and 12. In other words, the vast majority of Soren's iso is calling Firebringer scum.

Finally, we get the davesaz nightkill. This one's not conclusive: davesaz supported a Rob lynch as an option in 263, however, 280, 269, and 267 all seem to show davesaz is thinking Rob is town, as well as me for that matter: not someone to bring to lylo. 76 is a good post about Firebringer, too, and davesaz was likely to come back to it in lylo. His early interest in 44 made him particularly dangerous to Firebringer.

Keep in mind davesaz thought Soren was scum and Soren was the previous nightkill. He was going to re-evaluate given that. So who had the most to fear from him? Between you two, I don't see Rob fearing davesaz as much as I see Firebringer fearing him.

This is just half the case, though. Then we get into the actual thread. (Remember the pages I noted before as having key interactions? You're about to see them.)

[Firebringer]

I mean the only reason I am not voting you right now legit right now Rob, is because Ranger is making no god damn sense at all.
SHe still won't explain her scum read on me at all.

[Firebringer]

Between you two, I don't see Rob fearing davesaz as much as I see Firebringer fearing him.

Why would I fear davesaz? I don't even think the guy said much about me all game.

[Firebringer]

Is everything for you on associations ranger? That is literally the worst way to find me as scum. I have yet to find someone who can actually figure out me or my alliies by my associations with them lol.

[Firebringer]

Okay with Ranger making no god damn sense, I am going to have to just go YOLO there:

VOTE: Ranger

Congrats on the win Rob13. Ranger was making no sense and I still couldn't find any reason to town read her.