[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Cobblerfone]

The Blind Leading The Blind

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Supersaint
1 Town 1-Shot Vigilante
5 Vanilla Townies

All town-aligned players know who the Supersaint is (or maybe not the vig if this is too townsided).

What's the point of a Supersaint if all the townies know who it is? They'd never be lynched. Why not just treat it as an innocent child the mafia doesn't know about?

[pisskop]

A reverse mafia?

I guess scum would have to play attention to how others treat that player. But that sort of borders on bastard, jaa? Scum have more power despite being outnumbered because they have more info

[BBmolla]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

[Something_Smart]

Well the idea is that the town would run up the SS and try to trick scum into hammering without them realizing. I don't think it's bastard, it's more got a bit of an AITP element, though the scum still have the same info. I guess it's basically bussing by town so I suppose you could call it bastard. I think it would be challenging for the scum but if even one townie slips who the SS is then it basically becomes mountainous with one or two ICs. Maybe remove the vig then, the point of the vig was to reward not punish town with even numbers for getting a scum to hammer the SS.

I doubt Bob's idea would work in practice as it would be hard for one person to crumb a player, of which there are only 8, and have it known that it was a crumb but not who it was about, let alone for seven people to do this without scum figuring it out.

[Cobblerfone]

Well the idea is that the town would run up the SS and try to trick scum into hammering without them realizing. I don't think it's bastard, it's more got a bit of an AITP element, though the scum still have the same info. I guess it's basically bussing by town so I suppose you could call it bastard. I think it would be challenging for the scum but if even one townie slips who the SS is then it basically becomes mountainous with one or two ICs. Maybe remove the vig then, the point of the vig was to reward not punish town with even numbers for getting a scum to hammer the SS.

I doubt Bob's idea would work in practice as it would be hard for one person to crumb a player, of which there are only 8, and have it known that it was a crumb but not who it was about, let alone for seven people to do this without scum figuring it out.

Then scum would never hammer.

[Cobblerfone]

This probably isn't mafia but here's a fun idea that popped into my head 2 minutes ago:

# of players 3 to 12
1 to 4 Mafia Lovers
1 to 4 Werewolf Lovers
1 to 4 Jester Lovers

Three teams of equal size. Mafia wins if werewolves are lynched, werewolves win if mafia are lynched, jesters win if jesters are lynched.

No one is allowed to vote for themselves. Not sure if making everyone hated will make it work better. Or maybe jesters don't know who their lovers are? Or IDK.

Or maybe
1 Hated Mafia Goon
1 Hated Werewolf
1 Hated Jester
1 Hated Townie

Mafia wins if werewolf and townie are dead and they are still alive. Werewolf is similar. Jester wins if lynched. Townie wins if they are still alive on day two or if the jester is the only one alive on day two. No one can vote for themselves. Day one continues until there is a lynch.

[Sméagol]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

[Bicephalous Bob]

The Blind Leading The Blind

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Supersaint
1 Town 1-Shot Vigilante
5 Vanilla Townies

All town-aligned players know who the Supersaint is (or maybe not the vig if this is too townsided).

all townies crumb the ss's identity in their first few posts, then someone is appointed to out them (if they fail, they're lynched)

then everyone outs their crumbs

whoever doesn't have a credible crumb gets lynched

[N]

I'm in the queue for a mini, but I think I'd also like to run a micro, but haven't decided what set-up I want to use..

Are people interested in the following set-up, which I ran off-site (but with people who are not nearly as hardcore as people here are):

High risk, high reward

- Mountainous, no individual roles.
- Everyone, including mafia, is a (unrestricted) vigilante.
- The mafia are not in a team. They have the same win condition, but don't know eachother, and can't communicate.
- Voting as usual.
- For a micro I'd probably go 6-3 (it's more difficult for the mafia), and 5-2 day- night cycles, although I have no preference for the latter.

The idea is that the mafia have more opportunities to kill townies off, but on the other hand also risk killing eachother off. All players need to scumhunt, but with different motivations..
Was considering this for a marathon weekend, but I was wondering if there was any interest to run this as a micro. I think it works better with more people (a night 1 game over is a serious possibility), but outside of marathon, I think I'll start small while gaging interest. Otherwise I'll look at my other ideas.

tbh I'm not sure that's actually mafia

[MarioManiac4]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

i don't think you get me.

but what you call an unlimited vig is what people call a normal vig. there is one game with an "unlimited vig" i have seen- http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63284

someone who has seen that game might submit an order to kill everyone. or if its been around longer even more people.

[Something_Smart]

Well the idea is that the town would run up the SS and try to trick scum into hammering without them realizing. I don't think it's bastard, it's more got a bit of an AITP element, though the scum still have the same info. I guess it's basically bussing by town so I suppose you could call it bastard. I think it would be challenging for the scum but if even one townie slips who the SS is then it basically becomes mountainous with one or two ICs. Maybe remove the vig then, the point of the vig was to reward not punish town with even numbers for getting a scum to hammer the SS.

I doubt Bob's idea would work in practice as it would be hard for one person to crumb a player, of which there are only 8, and have it known that it was a crumb but not who it was about, let alone for seven people to do this without scum figuring it out.

Then scum would never hammer.

Well then they'd be obvious.

The Blind Leading The Blind

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Supersaint
1 Town 1-Shot Vigilante
5 Vanilla Townies

All town-aligned players know who the Supersaint is (or maybe not the vig if this is too townsided).

all townies crumb the ss's identity in their first few posts, then someone is appointed to out them (if they fail, they're lynched)

then everyone outs their crumbs

whoever doesn't have a credible crumb gets lynched

Don't think this would work as if even one crumb was too obvious, the scum would catch on. You've got a point though that it's dangerously close to being breakable. It might mitigate it if the vigi didn't know the SS either. (It would be hilarious if the vigi shot the SS after being annoyed that their wagon didn't lead to a lynch.)

[Sméagol]

[..]
tbh I'm not sure that's actually mafia

If you want to get technical about it, then no.. It's an uniformed minority vs uninformed majority.

[..]
i don't think you get me.

but what you call an unlimited vig is what people call a normal vig. there is one game with an "unlimited vig" i have seen- http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63284

someone who has seen that game might submit an order to kill everyone. or if its been around longer even more people.

Nah, I still want something resembling a game.. It'll be clear in the ruleset. I was incorrectly assuming people here would expect the vigilantes to be 1-shot or something, for this kind of game, so I stated they were "unrestricted".

[BBmolla]

I doubt Bob's idea would work in practice as it would be hard for one person to crumb a player, of which there are only 8, and have it known that it was a crumb but not who it was about, let alone for seven people to do this without scum figuring it out.

Disagree.

[BBmolla]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that if all players could shoot, they wouldn't shoot, which I disagree with. More often than not players will always utilize their abilities if able.

Except Llamafluff

[BBmolla]

This probably isn't mafia but here's a fun idea that popped into my head 2 minutes ago:

# of players 3 to 12
1 to 4 Mafia Lovers
1 to 4 Werewolf Lovers
1 to 4 Jester Lovers

Three teams of equal size. Mafia wins if werewolves are lynched, werewolves win if mafia are lynched, jesters win if jesters are lynched.

No one is allowed to vote for themselves. Not sure if making everyone hated will make it work better. Or maybe jesters don't know who their lovers are? Or IDK.

Or maybe
1 Hated Mafia Goon
1 Hated Werewolf
1 Hated Jester
1 Hated Townie

Mafia wins if werewolf and townie are dead and they are still alive. Werewolf is similar. Jester wins if lynched. Townie wins if they are still alive on day two or if the jester is the only one alive on day two. No one can vote for themselves. Day one continues until there is a lynch.

Game 1 is impossible to get lynch. Wolves wont vote wolves, mafia wont vote mafia, jester wont vote anyone but himself.

Game 2 is just "convince the townie who he should let win"

[Something_Smart]

Or "convince the townie you are the jester". Assuming townie loses if jester is lynched.

[BBmolla]

This the route I'd go personally with that setup.

Blind Guiding the Blind

12 Players

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Supersaint
1 Town 1-shot Vig
4 Vanilla Townies

• The 1-shot Vig knows the identity of the Supersaint.
  
• If the Supersaint is alive day 3, town loses.

[BBmolla]

Or "convince the townie you are the jester". Assuming townie loses if jester is lynched.

Then it's just Win, Lose, Banana though.

[Sméagol]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that if all players could shoot, they wouldn't shoot, which I disagree with. More often than not players will always utilize their abilities if able.

Except Llamafluff

Nah I meant purely from the set-up perspective.. I can't tell how eager players will be to shoot their scum/townreads, but it's going to be a short game nonetheless. But the whole point is there's a risk involved, if your reads are incorrect. Not shooting can be useful too.

[BBmolla]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that if all players could shoot, they wouldn't shoot, which I disagree with. More often than not players will always utilize their abilities if able.

Except Llamafluff

Nah I meant purely from the set-up perspective.. I can't tell how eager players will be to shoot their scum/townreads, but it's going to be a short game nonetheless. But the whole point is there's a risk involved, if your reads are incorrect. Not shooting can be useful too.

90% of players have their heads up their ass and will believe their reads are the best and will shoot

[BBmolla]

I'd love to be proven wrong though, so feel free to run it.

It's not mafia by definition of there being no informed minority though but it's mafia enough to run on site.

[Bicephalous Bob]

not shooting in that setup is clearly suboptimal

Don't think this would work as if even one crumb was too obvious, the scum would catch on. You've got a point though that it's dangerously close to being breakable. It might mitigate it if the vigi didn't know the SS either. (It would be hilarious if the vigi shot the SS after being annoyed that their wagon didn't lead to a lynch.)

a setup that relies on people being bad at crumbing is broken

not informing the vig doesn't solve anything

[Something_Smart]

Molla in your setup I feel like SS claiming on day 3 and being hammered by the town-agreed scummiest player is probably optimal. I see the incentive for the vig to "bus" the SS so they don't have to waste their shot but the original point was more of an AITP the entire town is keeping a secret from the scum. Ideally, the incentive for the SS lynch would lie in catching scum with it.

And Bob that's a good point but I think it more relies on scum being competent at crumb hunting when it's literally staring them in the face. You have an idea to unbreak it?

As for the win, lose, banana thing, I feel like it's impossible to make an interesting 4 player game with 2 scum and a jester. I invented an IRL setup that is 1 Mafia, 1 Jester, 1 Townie, 1 Vengeful Townie or 1 Supersaint (both setups are interesting), where Jester wins if lynched or vengekilled, Mafia wins if they and Jester live, Town wins if Mafia dies, and it's actually kinda fun. Maybe you could try that here and make one or both scum a supersaint (or maybe each has 50% chance of being one).

[BBmolla]

I'm saying that if the SS is alive at the start of day 3 game ends.

You could argue that trying to get scummiest player to lynch SS day 2 is optimal. I think it's okay if people really want to go that route. Or vig could just save shot and use it on SS night 2.

There is not enough incentive to discourage crumbing and that's such a janky interaction to deal with. You need dire consequences for scum finding out who they are or it doesn't work. Example:

Merlin Vengeful 7p

7 Players

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Merlin
4 Vanilla Townies

• Nightless
  
• When a town player is lynched at an odd number of players (7, 5, 3) the town player gets a vengekill.
  
• Merlin is privately informed who is scum at start of the game.
  
• Players flip "Town" instead of their role.
  
• If scum are all lynched, they must choose one player who they believe is the merlin. If they guess correctly they win.

Now that I'm thinking, might be better if it's just normal vengeful 7p instead of just 2 goons.

It is impossible to make an interesting 4 player game with 2 scum and a jester. Because that's 3 scum 1 town.

[callforjudgement]

Training Hospital

• 7 Town Semi-Doctors
  
• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• A player is protected from a kill if at least two semi-Doctors are protecting them. A single semi-Doctor protection does nothing by itself.
  
• As usual, the mod doesn't comment on who Doctors protected or if a kill was prevented, just on who died (if anyone) and their alignment.

I don't think this is breakable; scum can't protect people but they can choose not to shoot a person who would give them away as having not protected. Town can certainly coordinate to keep specific townies alive but that's an intended part of the setup. I believe optimal strategy for town is to direct the protects of the scummiest-looking players but to leave everyone else to make a free choice with their night action. (Optimal play for Mafia is to attempt to kill every night, although taking "long shots" that have a high chance of hitting a protection is reasonable; if Mafia don't kill, that's a 7:2 nightless, which is known to be very townsided.)

This could also work at 10:3, I think. Not 100% sure on balance in either case but it has to be close.