Newbie 1687 (Game Over)

[FrogSC2]

@Kirroha

I'll ask you questions that I want you to expand on.

What is your take on Drixx's case on Literallypam? Is it a valid case?
Literallypam has flat out refused to answer a string of questions.
But more importantly, Literallypam has shown a blatant disregard for D1. There has been no scumhunting, contradictions, or expression to explain any reasoning behind literallypam's motivations for actions.

Do you feel Drixx has or hasn't addressed other players seriously? In other words, has Drixx demonstrated scumhunting or solving questions elsewhere

enough

or even at all to be considered as opening the field of play? Why or why not?

[FrogSC2]

I agree with notachipmunk, even though Kagesong and Literallypam both seem scummy to me, I doubt they're a team.

Guttsa's reaction to being accused did seem excessively defensive to me, I didn't get any sense of

intense rage

from Kirroha in the questioning so it was odd, Guttsa might have been having a bad day but I guess we won't find out if they're being replaced.

Drixx seems very focussed on Literallypam, same for Kirroha on Guttsa.


I went back over Kagesong's posts and I'm more convinced now:

43, 58, 61, 99, 127 for assuming some kind of tricky lies are afoot, seems like the mindset scum would be in
54 for enjoyment of Psychological warfare (seems scummy to me)

99 (again) working out nightkills, the others are more tone, this one seems more solid to me: from the previous posts, it's clear the Kagesong likes using this WIFOM reasoning...

If he's scum, he's putting out a name that he knows isn't going to get NKd, he's distracting attention and then he'll probably kill me and say "Why would I kill the guy who's pushing for my lynch? It's too obvious so it can't be me, besides, I already pointed out who the NK should logically be."

If he's town, why would he think scum want Guttsa dead? Guttsa didn't say anything of note other than a counter-accusation against Kirroha, the suggestion that scum should night kill Guttsa came out of nowhere.



Since I think Kagesong is scum, and a team with Literallypam is unlikely, I don't think Literallypam is scum, despite sounding scummy.

Guttsa case, other than the overreaction, seems weak to me, seriously go look at the ISO, 6 posts, 5 excluding the RQS reply: 1 questioning an IC lynch (apparently a common mistake among us newbies), 2 getting angry about getting accused (maybe scummy I agree), 1 giving a (are you thinking fraudulent?) explanation for the overreaction and 1 calling out a lurker.

I doubt Hawkleader is scum...don't know how things go in general here but I'd guess that scum newbies would be less likely to drop out than townies.

As a guess I'd say Kagesong is scummily teamed up with either Reubus or Drixx...can't say which.

Rufus, very similar questions that I've just asked the Drixx and Kirroha.

1. Why do you think Drixx is tunnel visioned on Literallypam? Does you disagree with his and Reubus' strong case? If so, what part of it is wrong and what part of it right? Who else has Drixx hunted?

2. Why do you think Kirroha was/is against Guttsa? Please take a look back at your post 39 I previously quoted. And then note Kirroha's subsequent post #40 I believe. Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common? Can you see the link between your post 39 and why I'm bringing up these questions? Think it through in a post, I'd love to hear your thought process on this.

[FrogSC2]

@Kagesong

Truth be told, the Scum's best strategy now would be to kill you tonight. That would, by your own statement make Kirroha seem guilty, regardless of her guilt. Actually I would be more suspicious of Kirroha if you remain alive.

I'm not going to address the WIFOM in here, the takeaway I get is that you have a scum read on Kirroha. I may be wrong.

How do you read Kirroha and WHY? What quotes pinged you as scum/town? You're a tone reader, which posts (didn't) feel right?

[FrogSC2]

@Literaallypam

You've dodged a LOT of questions. You may not even realize that you're doing it. The case on you right now is VERY strong.

My secondary FOS is Rufus, because I think I do look extremely scummy right now, he seems to be playing the middle ground.

In this quote you say Rufus is taking a middle ground, and therefore one of your scum reads, but Rufus pretty much defended you calling your case weak.

Reubus, I get that, that's why I'm not voting atm.

Not sure who looks scummy right now, literallypam case seems weak for the same reason you gave, they're not pushing for anything.

I'd say kagesong might be suspect, surely scum would be the ones who enjoy engaging in psychological warfare and someone in a lying mindset would see the ways innocent comments could be sneaky lies.

But then maybe I'm biased because they're voting for me.

I realize you backtracked saying you meant to say Reubus was your town read previously, not Rufus, and it was a name mixup.

1. Why would Rufus call your strong case weak?
2. It seems like you've spent all your time answering questions against you. Do you feel you've been overly defensive instead of actively scum hunting and pushing the game forward?
3. Do you feel Rufus has been overly defensive? Or has he been reasonably defensive? Or maybe you feel he's been aggressive? I'll leave you some of Rufus' quotes:

This was in response to an RVS vote

Oddly enough, I've never actually seen the film.

Though just like the DeLorean car; I am a triumph of style over function, and my footprints set on fire when I travel through time.

This was in defense of Kagesong's accusation of a tone read on Drixx with a basis of 'privileged information'

I don't

know

that Drixx is a townie but there's a 7/9 chance that they are...I guess that goes for everyone though.

Like I said, not much to go on at that point.

This is further defending against Kagesong about speculative WIFOM, do you think Rufus' answers were rational? Why didn't Rufus defend himself in the manner he did previously, he seems to have continued his defense instead. Forget about the part of the post that concerns you. I know your stance here is he's taking a middle ground. I agree with that part for THIS post.

Surely those reasons only work if you start off with the assumption that we're both scum.

If you started from the assumption that we're town then those would be reasons to further assume we're town. i.e.

Your assumed carelessness as to who gets lynched gives you a more innocent air.

Therefore they seem innocent, so town

As for the other, his desire to protect another player in round one. It could suggest that he's doing so to appear as a good guy.

So I'm a good guy, also town.


I'm not sure about literallypam, I mostly got the impression that they just quickly skimmed the first page and posted after getting poked...it could have been a scummy attempt to push Drixx to L-1 without realising that people had changed votes, so I'm not claiming that literallypam is town, just that the reasoning you gave is flawed.

Literallypam seems scummier to me now than Reubus, basically same reasoning as before, admittedly weak reason.

UNVOTE: Reubus Swagrid

This is him defending his same original opinion, this time against Kagesong's WIFOM, and Reubus' prod. Does it seem like he's almost admitting being scum, caving into pressure here? His response to Reubus actually has good logic, do you agree? Is this another defense post? He says your case is weak, do you actually think the case against you was weak? This was one of my intiial questions to you.

@Kagesong - one might think that way, there's not really any way to respond to that though...act like a bad guy?

@Reubus - Same reasoning is that I reckon lynching the IC on the first day is likely to benefit scum...is that really such a scummy thing to suggest? Is it wrong? I'm legitimately asking since I've not played before, the reasoning sounds right to me but it apparently makes me look scummy.

You could have been random voting or maybe trying to sneak a real vote into the middle of a drixx lynch, I admitted it was a weak reason and since we're out of RVS, I'm not voting based on it anymore.

This is another defense post against Reubus. Does it seem like he's backtracking his scum read on Reubus because Reubus' logic was too strong of a lynch candidate? Or because he legitimately doesn't scum read Reubus anymore? Did he just admidt his Kagesong read was OMGUS? Kirroha certainly seems to think so as she comments later.

Reubus, I get that, that's why I'm not voting atm.

Not sure who looks scummy right now, literallypam case seems weak for the same reason you gave, they're not pushing for anything.

I'd say kagesong might be suspect, surely scum would be the ones who enjoy engaging in psychological warfare and someone in a lying mindset would see the ways innocent comments could be sneaky lies.

But then maybe I'm biased because they're voting for me.

Does this tone seem defensive, reactionary? Is this really scum hunting?

Since I know I'm town, someone making a bad case against me seems scummy to me, you all don't know I'm town so I accept I might be biased.

I already pointed out that kagesong's case was flawed because it relies on crap reasoning: statement sounds towny, scum want to seem towny so he's scum

Seriously, is accepting possible mistakes in reasoning scummy now? I really don't get how this works.

Does he transition out of this well? If so, what is his focus if not on you?

[Drixx]

Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second. I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else? I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.

[Drixx]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

[FrogSC2]

Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second. I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else? I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.

Your main point is a defense of your play, do you realize you're being defensive?
You say the only objective is pegging your scum read and ignoring the rest of the game.

What if you're wrong and literallypam flips town? We're left with a wasted day with no more content.
What if literallypam flips scum and we're left with "well Rufus defended literallypam, that's literally our only lead."

I cannot agree with your strict tunnel vision and

blatant

refusal to go further.

In fact I think you're doing the game a disservice to not explore and open up the field.

You have purposefully dodged my VERY specific range of questions I've asked you in an effort to close the day here and now and deny town any chance at content generation.

I'm going to ask you again, because you have exhibited, and confirmed, a

purposeful

overlook of the rest of the rest of the game:

What is your alignment read on Kirroha based on the first 50 posts? Why?
What is your alignment read on Kirroha baed on the game as a whole? Why?

I'm not going to let you frame my argument for you to agree or disagree with. I have a post prepared to drop on a moment's notice. The purpose of asking

YOU

this question is to get

YOUR

opinions on other players. The reason for this is because your opinions on other players are admittedly PURPOSEFULLY being withheld. I cannot fathom a reason for a town to do this D1. You are purposefully putting town at a disadvantage. I'd really rather not pursue you D1, but if you're going to be blatantly unwilling to engage the game at large beyond one lynch, you'll have painted yourself as an obvious scum.

[FrogSC2]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.

[FrogSC2]

I agree with notachipmunk, even though Kagesong and Literallypam both seem scummy to me, I doubt they're a team.

Guttsa's reaction to being accused did seem excessively defensive to me, I didn't get any sense of

intense rage

from Kirroha in the questioning so it was odd, Guttsa might have been having a bad day but I guess we won't find out if they're being replaced.

Drixx seems very focussed on Literallypam, same for Kirroha on Guttsa.


I went back over Kagesong's posts and I'm more convinced now:

43, 58, 61, 99, 127 for assuming some kind of tricky lies are afoot, seems like the mindset scum would be in
54 for enjoyment of Psychological warfare (seems scummy to me)

99 (again) working out nightkills, the others are more tone, this one seems more solid to me: from the previous posts, it's clear the Kagesong likes using this WIFOM reasoning...

If he's scum, he's putting out a name that he knows isn't going to get NKd, he's distracting attention and then he'll probably kill me and say "Why would I kill the guy who's pushing for my lynch? It's too obvious so it can't be me, besides, I already pointed out who the NK should logically be."

If he's town, why would he think scum want Guttsa dead? Guttsa didn't say anything of note other than a counter-accusation against Kirroha, the suggestion that scum should night kill Guttsa came out of nowhere.



Since I think Kagesong is scum, and a team with Literallypam is unlikely, I don't think Literallypam is scum, despite sounding scummy.

Guttsa case, other than the overreaction, seems weak to me, seriously go look at the ISO, 6 posts, 5 excluding the RQS reply: 1 questioning an IC lynch (apparently a common mistake among us newbies), 2 getting angry about getting accused (maybe scummy I agree), 1 giving a (are you thinking fraudulent?) explanation for the overreaction and 1 calling out a lurker.

I doubt Hawkleader is scum...don't know how things go in general here but I'd guess that scum newbies would be less likely to drop out than townies.

As a guess I'd say Kagesong is scummily teamed up with either Reubus or Drixx...can't say which.

Rufus, very similar questions that I've just asked the Drixx and Kirroha.

1. Why do you think Drixx is tunnel visioned on Literallypam? Does you disagree with his and Reubus' strong case? If so, what part of it is wrong and what part of it right? Who else has Drixx hunted?

2. Why do you think Kirroha was/is against Guttsa? Please take a look back at your post 39 I previously quoted. And then note Kirroha's subsequent post #40 I believe. Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common? Can you see the link between your post 39 and why I'm bringing up these questions? Think it through in a post, I'd love to hear your thought process on this.

@Rufus

I made an error in my 2nd line of questions:
"Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common?"
Should read:
"Who was Kirroha voting after that? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common?"

[Drixx]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.

By my count you set up at least three 1v1, and you say you are pitting scum reads

against one another

. You are scum reading 2/3 of the game at the moment?

You are welcome to play however you like, but you don't have the right to tell me I'm obligated to play your way or else I must be scum. There are a small handful of people I know who can order me to do something in a game and I'll obey, because they have

earned

my respect. You might like to brag about being the MVP of some other site's playgroup, but this is a gigantic pond you have moved into, and there's lots of other big fish; if I had to guess from the way you are trying to bully me, there's a lot of much

bigger

fish here.

You are free to pursue whatever you would like today, but you aren't going to bully me into anything. Rethink your approach. Bullying me and slamming my approach and trying to take me to task for what I should or shouldn't be doing, in your opinion, isn't going to get me to do squat but dislike you.

To quote one of my favorite television characters: "At a very young age, someone should have told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Sir."

[FrogSC2]

@Reubus

The activity in this game is a joke

Be the change!

What I like about you is that you've actually been engaging with the range of players at least. Not to mention I generally agree with your conclusions. I only have a couple of minor pings from you, but they're not worth discussing.

The only thing that would be nice from you is to open up your null reads. Particularly notachipmunk. I have him as a null read as well. The only prod I could see is his IMO incorrect statement of Rufus not being defensive. I've quoted the string of Rufus' posts. It's pretty much a dead-end string of questions though. Oh, I found a question for him.

@notachipmunk

I don't like your first post either.
I don't think it was an innocent, random vote.
I think you're trying to pass by the radar undetected. You want the arrows pointing to other people (Drixx, me), but never to you.
You never gave me reason to trust you, quite the contrary.

First of all, I'm newbie at this game (my first mafia game), so it's possible I'm saying something stupid.
It's a bit suspicious how

intense

is your rage at me, if I end up dead, things will turn ugly for you (my innocence will be proven)!
Nice of you, putting a rope in your neck, so soon in the game.
Apparently I was right about you being an unstable individual. xD

I feel like guttsa got a bit defensive and also stopped posting after their interactions with kirroha were over. I get that they're totally new (as I am too) so that may be part of it, but they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha.

VOTE: Guttsa

As far as how I see literallypam and kagesong as they both could be scummy, the fact that they know they're acting scummy and kinda putting targets on themselves is keeping me from pushing either too strongly either way (yet), but I don't think

both

are scum, just dunno which one to be more wary of.

Ok, pushing the game in another direction but not really exploring your biggest scum reads.

Question : In your quote, who is "they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha". Who is they?

The activity in this game is a joke

I agree. It seems like people are just confused, and I'm not really learning anything from it all.

@kagesong
Don't let people play dumb and close the game. If you have scum reads, pit them against each other. There is a hell of a lot of content left that was left untouched, don't buy into the idea that there isn't.

It does seem pretty slow, wasn't sure if that was standard here.

Is there a generally good method of getting things moving?

Not sure what else to say, I've already said my suspicions are Kagesong and to a lesser extent Literallypam and they both accept that they look scummy...not sure what to make of their reactions.

@Rufus

It really depends. This is a particularly slow game, and it seems purposeful. READ: Drixx's acknowledgement of this

I've given you some ideas of what to talk about if you want to be helpful. The ball is in your court to follow through.

It is very slow. I think the best thing we can do about it is re-read the 135 or so posts so far and ask questions about things that maybe didn't stick out the first time. Let's see if we can jump start this puppy.

@Drixx

So hypocritical considering your responses to me. You want to ask players questions, but you don't want me to ask players questions. Don't pretend there isn't content, and then shut it down when I open the flood gates.

[Drixx]

How many times did I say you were free to play however you liked? I simply won't be bullied, and the moment you attached a threat to try and force me to do what you wanted, you were engaging in bullying behavior.

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

Normally I wouldn't respond to something with a threat attached, but I think you aren't the one who was bragging about being site MVP 2 years running, or at least I couldn't find the quote when I scanned your ISO quickly, so I'm extending an olive branch.

[FrogSC2]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.

By my count you set up at least three 1v1, and you say you are pitting scum reads

against one another

. You are scum reading 2/3 of the game at the moment?

You are welcome to play however you like, but you don't have the right to tell me I'm obligated to play your way or else I must be scum. There are a small handful of people I know who can order me to do something in a game and I'll obey, because they have

earned

my respect. You might like to brag about being the MVP of some other site's playgroup, but this is a gigantic pond you have moved into, and there's lots of other big fish; if I had to guess from the way you are trying to bully me, there's a lot of much

bigger

fish here.

You are free to pursue whatever you would like today, but you aren't going to bully me into anything. Rethink your approach. Bullying me and slamming my approach and trying to take me to task for what I should or shouldn't be doing, in your opinion, isn't going to get me to do squat but dislike you.

To quote one of my favorite television characters: "At a very young age, someone should have told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Sir."

This is a rather personal attack on my character? That... is... a... fallacy? Yes?

If you're ACTUALLY offended by my playstyle, please let me know kindly instead of discrediting my character in a public manner.

Otherwise, it's a game and tone is a strategy.

To put it bluntly, you've said you wanted to do one thing at this point:

Open up the game content by searching through previous posts and asking players questions, but you have hypocritically attacked me for doing so now.

Can you understand why I'm scum reading you and asking you in this tone now?

I think I've made my sound arguments against your playstyle very clear.

Yes, I probably pushed it over the edge considering I've never played with you before, but I expected as the IC and since you expressed desire to open up the game that you would actually be in favor of this, not against this.

You've asked me to frame my argument for you, instead of providing any opinions on other players; something you haven't refuted, and seemingly confirmed aggressively as a part of your strategy.

I'm suggesting your strategy is flawed as a town, in a way that is understandable for not only you, but for other players to understand the argument against you.

I'm sorry if I've personally offended you with my tone and playstyle. That was not my intent.

To address the content of your post that wasn't a fallacy and a personal attack:
The purpose of opening up my lines of questions are multipurposed as I've already stated. I'm not sure if you've read the purpose incorrectly by mistake or on purpose.

1. To pit scum reads against each other
2. To teach town how to scum hunt

At this point in the game, I've found plenty of pings here and there. Forcing players to interact will either increase those pings or level them off. It will also allow players to start thinking about other content they have missed so far.

But MOST importantly, it will DRIVE the creation of content. I don't think we agree with this fundamentally, even though you've expressed a contradictory sentiment to finish the day off in a literallypam lynch right now.

I'll leave this here again:

It is very slow. I think the best thing we can do about it is re-read the 135 or so posts so far and ask questions about things that maybe didn't stick out the first time. Let's see if we can jump start this puppy.

followed by this:

Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second.

I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else?

I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.

Again, if you personally have an issue with my playstyle, let me know.

But you can't attack my character and then claim I'm being overly hostile.

[FrogSC2]

How many times did I say you were free to play however you liked? I simply won't be bullied, and the moment you attached a threat to try and force me to do what you wanted, you were engaging in bullying behavior.

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

Normally I wouldn't respond to something with a threat attached, but I think you aren't the one who was bragging about being site MVP 2 years running, or at least I couldn't find the quote when I scanned your ISO quickly, so I'm extending an olive branch.

I feel like this is more of a discussion on game theory than the actual game. But I understand why you brought it up.

I'm also of the mindset that pre-flip associations D1 are generally bad and create confirmation bias, and make VCA close to useless D1. However, I have picked up some tells on RVS, especially after I've gotten to the players.

Finally, yes, that was me. Again, if my playstyle offended you personally, I'll immediately adjust it! I don't want to ruin your game. I'd really like to see how you understand motivations behind players actions and how you analyze players.

For the record, I agree with your and Reubus' case on literallypam. I thought it was spot on and you tried your best to pressure him in a way that gentle at first giving him chances to explain himself in a manner that would teach him.

As an olive branch, i'll give you part of my analysis on that particular part of the Kirroha example I was asking you.

[line][/line]

This looks like after Rufus began a weak FOS on the early Drixx voters.

This would inevitably create a precedent leading to focus on analyzing Kihorra going forward, as Kihorra was an early Drixx voter.

The FOS on Kihorra, however ridiculous, was originally made by my sub Guttsa, and supported conceptually by Rufus.

I think Kirroha and Drixx each have 3 votes on them, would they count as bandwagons?

I'm sticking with my vote, I'd expect the IC to be most experienced at finding mafia so they'd want rid of him, putting a third vote on them is the most suspicious thing I've seen (not really seen much suspicious yet)

Demonstrates awareness of game votes.
Suspects Drixx train / defends Drixx

To me this quote below looks like OMGUS from Kihorra rather than a legitimate scum hunt. ESPECIALLY considering her vote HASN'T CHANGED and the reasoning for the vote on my sub is naive at best. I can expand on this later.

More importantly, it looks like it was pre-emptive because it looked like there could be traction on Kihorra from Rufus at this pivotal moment that would open a spotlight on Kihorra.

Bear in mind, Kihorra already had 3 votes on her not including Rufus. I feel that this maneuver was a cunning attempt at avoiding that traction from developing by discrediting Gutssa, the easy player voting her.

Wait, so you want the

wiser person of the group

to be lynched (In the first day)? And you seem happy about that?
That's like starting a PC/console game for the first time, select the tutorial in the main menu, and before the NPC can give you any tips, and info which might clear your doubts, you try to hit him/her in the face
You're the kind of (unstable) individual that I'll stay away whenever I can.

- guttsa

In hindsight I'm switching my vote because hey ~buddying the IC~ anyone?

VOTE: guttsa

Never sits well with me.

I can go into GREAT detail as to why I KNOW Kihorra's reasoning for the Guttsa vote is flawed.

[Drixx]

I've never attacked anything but your play, mate. That's the line on this site. Attacking the person behind the keyboard is not acceptable.

You asked me a question (which I've now answered as an olive branch, to which you responded with a very lengthy post accusing me of breaking site rules). You then attached a threat to that question. That makes your play bullying. My only objection is that you felt the need to attach a threat to your request. There's no need for threats.

Despite what you seem to think, I think it's awesome that you are coming in gung ho. That means you are much more likely to be an active player on site and I look forward to playing with you in other queues and larger games.

As for me; if you think I'm scum you're dead wrong.

---

As for your playstyle; aggressive is fine. The only problem I had, at all, was when you put a threat in play. When you tell another player "You will do what I want you to do or else", that's bullying. I think you will probably run into some folks on site who will push back against your aggressive style, and over time you'll adjust a bit, but I would say be who you are. 99% of what you're doing is

great

. I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.

[FrogSC2]

I've never attacked anything but your play, mate. That's the line on this site. Attacking the person behind the keyboard is not acceptable.

You asked me a question (which I've now answered as an olive branch, to which you responded with a very lengthy post accusing me of breaking site rules). You then attached a threat to that question. That makes your play bullying. My only objection is that you felt the need to attach a threat to your request. There's no need for threats.

Despite what you seem to think, I think it's awesome that you are coming in gung ho. That means you are much more likely to be an active player on site and I look forward to playing with you in other queues and larger games.

As for me; if you think I'm scum you're dead wrong.

---

As for your playstyle; aggressive is fine. The only problem I had, at all, was when you put a threat in play. When you tell another player "You will do what I want you to do or else", that's bullying. I think you will probably run into some folks on site who will push back against your aggressive style, and over time you'll adjust a bit, but I would say be who you are. 99% of what you're doing is

great

. I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.

I truly feel like a dick now.

That comment about bragging about my mafia history got to me a bit. I felt, since it was out of game, was irrelevant, but if you want to use that as meta for my play I understand and accept that. The purpose of me announcing that was to reach out to other skilled players, not to brag. But truth be told, my playstyle is very arrogant and at times bullying. Just ask Titus I'll of course be more considerate going forward with you, and especially in all future newbie games.

Bottom line, I apologize for my bullying. That's exactly what I was doing. I've found as a playstyle I can use it to gauge emotional reactions to pressure and sometimes provoke a scum slip lost in emotion. This is not the place for that playstyle.

I'll leave the field open for now.

[Drixx]

Lots of players bully on site. I just don't let myself be bullied, and I generally don't like to see it in the newbie games. It's an effective strategy to provoke reaction to be sure.

[FrogSC2]

Lots of players bully on site. I just don't let myself be bullied, and I generally don't like to see it in the newbie games. It's an effective strategy to provoke reaction to be sure.

Fair enough.

Is this all you're willing disclose about Kirroha?

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

I wanted to expand on the pitfalls of this playstyle that I've experienced first hand. I've also thought of myself like a dog who found a bone when I'm in tunnel vision.

Aside from the risks of considerably less information in the event of a town flip, the same risks exist in the scum flip.

Even if the D1 lynch is correct within the first hour, the day is killed and no more information on other players is possible.

Forget finding the rest of the scum team for optimal TPR night action targets or future lynches.

Forget clearing town reads for exclusion from future POEs, and using those reads for optimal TPR night actions.

The bottom line is once an obvious lynch appears in sight, there is no more realistic pressure on other players for reads, and there is no more content generated for the future of the game.

I think we're both now aligned in expanding our reads on other players, and asking targeted questions towards players for these purposes.

I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.

As a side note, I was happily surprised to see no self-lynch bait this game so far. Or any other nuts opening day gambits. I don't think that type of WIFOM would even be productive in this environment.

[notachipmunk]

[quote="In post 135,

The only thing that would be nice from you is to open up your null reads. Particularly notachipmunk. I have him as a null read as well. The only prod I could see is his IMO incorrect statement of Rufus not being defensive. I've quoted the string of Rufus' posts. It's pretty much a dead-end string of questions though. Oh, I found a question for him.

@notachipmunk

I don't like your first post either.
I don't think it was an innocent, random vote.
I think you're trying to pass by the radar undetected. You want the arrows pointing to other people (Drixx, me), but never to you.
You never gave me reason to trust you, quite the contrary.

First of all, I'm newbie at this game (my first mafia game), so it's possible I'm saying something stupid.
It's a bit suspicious how

intense

is your rage at me, if I end up dead, things will turn ugly for you (my innocence will be proven)!
Nice of you, putting a rope in your neck, so soon in the game.
Apparently I was right about you being an unstable individual. xD

I feel like guttsa got a bit defensive and also stopped posting after their interactions with kirroha were over. I get that they're totally new (as I am too) so that may be part of it, but they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha.

VOTE: Guttsa

As far as how I see literallypam and kagesong as they both could be scummy, the fact that they know they're acting scummy and kinda putting targets on themselves is keeping me from pushing either too strongly either way (yet), but I don't think

both

are scum, just dunno which one to be more wary of.

Ok, pushing the game in another direction but not really exploring your biggest scum reads.

Question : In your quote, who is "they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha". Who is they?

This may seem silly since at that point I also wasn't posting super much compared to the rest but part of what I wanted to do with that vote was to make guttsa post more, which would also give me something to directly respond to since no one else directly did. The other part was that the posts I did see out of him/her were attacking back at the person who was voting them. You have opposite posting habits as guttsa - I believe you replaced guttsa and not hawk, right?

They = guttsa. Guttsa was the only one in the game without a gender under their avatar so idk what to call em.

Since you mentioned this too about saying Rufus was not being defensive - I read through all his posts and found his tone and reactions to be relaxed, for lack of a better word.

[notachipmunk]

^That bottom part should say "you mentioned this too about

me

saying Rufus was not being defensive", I know you think he is and my wording was not clear!

[Rufus Delorian]

Ha! Was not expecting that.

I'm not going to be able to trawl through all that on my phone and respond to everything.

Couple of things I can answer:

Reubus vote wasn't based on much, any suspicion I had of kirroha would be based on the same RVS stuffso I didn't pursue it.

Like I said earlier, the initial Literallypam post just read as a rushed response after being poked. The evasiveness is a bit odd but I'd really expect scum to try to defend themselves so the lackluster defense & FOSing me for questioning case against them just doesn't feel scummy to me, bad play obviously.

Hadn't thought about it until you mentioned but if Literallypam is scum, they have daytalk and apparently their partner never said "just admit it was an unjustified vote ffs!"

[FrogSC2]

@notachipmunk

Yes, I replaced Guttsa. (RIP Guttsa :'( )

I thought that's what you meant by 'they', I was more curious about your motivation but that makes sense. Your tone read of Rufus being passive defensive seems pretty alright to me. You're the true null read. Lol. You'll probably ride to end game if scum make it that far regardless of your alignment. I'm leaning that you're actually a Town. Feel free to comment on any topics I've discussed so far, or dig up something new.

Some topics I've discussed, or want to discuss:

1. Drixx's concealing style - ask him about other players! Give it a go!

2. Kirroha - look through the flow of the game in those posts 0-40. Click on her ISO. Ask her to expand her reasoning for all of her votes. Dig in there! Ask her what she thinks about Drixx's posting style and his case on literallypam.

3. Literallypam - Feel free to explore your thoughts on that case, look at the accusations against her made by Drixx and Reubus. Do you agree with them? If you do, tell them (Drixx and Reubus). If you do but you still find something suspicious about their play, ask them about their play that bothered you. You don't need to be straight forward like that, as scum who know you're onto them tend to be purposefully uncooperative. Sometimes when they react emotionally they can slip this attitude.

4. This one is a different type of 'exercise' - explore kagesong's page 1 - page 2 posts. She accidentally derp cleared herself. Clearing townies is just as important as finding scum, or getting scum to slip.

[FrogSC2]

I'm going to try to wait for everyone to take a stab at questions, counter questions, organic conversations to develop, and Panther to sweep before coming back. ±24 hours seem reasonable?

[kirroha]

prodge. Going to catch my backlog of games tonight. i hate university

[PantherPunt]

I think Kirroha and Drixx each have 3 votes on them, would they count as bandwagons?

I'm sticking with my vote, I'd expect the IC to be most experienced at finding mafia so they'd want rid of him, putting a third vote on them is the most suspicious thing I've seen (not really seen much suspicious yet)

Hi Rufus,

The first problem I had with this post is that you are assuming that the IC is town. That looks to have been addressed and you said "well there's a 7/9 chance." I don't love that as an answer because you should be trying to read EVERYONE. And making that response seems to imply that you aren't trying to read everyone. Scum are informed of all alignments, so that gives me some pause on you.

In reality, Drixx only had 2 votes at this point. What, at this point in time, made you suspicious of Swagrid but not the other Drixx voter, Kirroha?