[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[BNL]

Random idea I thought of:

2 Mafia Goons (or maybe one Roleblocker)
7 Inaccurate Cops

Each night, if X cops try to use their ability, they have a (50+(50/X))% chance of getting accurate results, and otherwise get inverted results.

[callforjudgement]

I think that's mostly balanced if the town adopt the strategy of picking the scummiest person and having them make an investigation, with nobody else investigating. If the scum shoot them, it's an effective 7:2 nightless, meaning that scum can't kill the nominated cop. If scum shoot someone else, it's similar to cop+6:2 (which is balanced), but with two exceptions: the town can't know that the "cop" who investigated is town (thus the investigations lead to 1v1s or A-scum-or-B-town results), and if the cop dies, another player is promoted to cop. That's probably slightly scumsided, but not by much.

Town can probably do better by nominating two people to investigate and dealing with potentially 75% sane cop results (which retroactively become 100% sane if one of the investigators eventually turn out to be scum). I'm not sure if this is enough of an advantage to make the setup townsided.

An every-townie-for-themself strategy, on the other hand, would be a disaster; the results would most likely be more misleading than useful.

[BNL]

Roleblocker	1-shot Ascetic	Tracker
1-shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	1-shot Ninja
Doctor	1-shot Rolestopper	Watcher

Choose one row, column or diagonal at random, then add VTs and Goons to generate a 2:7 setup.

Ascetic activates on the night of the Mafia's choice.

Rolestopper doesn't stop kills.

So I tried to improve this setup, and here's what I came up with:

1-shot Ascetic	Watcher	Townie
Roleblocker	Doctor	1-shot Strongman
Tracker	1-shot Ninja	Jailkeeper

Pick one random row or column, then add 1 Mafia Goon and 5 Vanilla Townies.
1-shot Ascetic is an Active ability.

[callforjudgement]

Top row is pretty townsided; if town can predict the kill correctly on any night (and it isn't the watcher that's killed), that's scum caught. Predicting the kill is normally easier than finding scum.

[BNL]

Top row is pretty townsided; if town can predict the kill correctly on any night (and it isn't the watcher that's killed), that's scum caught. Predicting the kill is normally easier than finding scum.

Top row is equivalent to 2 Mafia:6 Town + 1 Watcher. Watcher has essentially the same chance of finding scum as a Tracker (and can't find innos with 1 scum left), which is worse than Cop. Is it actually townsided?

[JasonWazza]

Well lets assume this is Night 1, your mafia, you lynched a townie, nothing claimed, and you have a 1-shot Ascetic.

You now run into the problem of not knowing if the setup is a Tracker/RB or a Watcher, and don't know which way to actually vary your kills up (which happens until the watcher gets a result or dies)

Probably the best way to run it is to have the Ascetic use their ability N1 and make a kill on the most townie person, and risk getting caught by the watcher (because the watcher watches said townie person) as you'd be able to block both the RB and the Tracker with the Ascetic, and if caught your just giving in a named goon.

Which of course brings it down to a 1:4 with the Watcher dead on Day 3.

Honestly the only setups i would want to run into are the ninja ones because at least you know what sort of style you have to play for.

[callforjudgement]

Top row is pretty townsided; if town can predict the kill correctly on any night (and it isn't the watcher that's killed), that's scum caught. Predicting the kill is normally easier than finding scum.

Top row is equivalent to 2 Mafia:6 Town + 1 Watcher. Watcher has essentially the same chance of finding scum as a Tracker (and can't find innos with 1 scum left), which is worse than Cop. Is it actually townsided?

A Watcher has a better chance of finding scum than a Tracker.

With a Tracker, you have to predict who will make the kill (i.e. the towniest mafioso).
With a Watcher, you have to predict who will be killed (i.e. the towniest townie).
It's normally easier for town to figure out who the towniest townie is than who the towniest mafioso is; the former requires a lot less information.

[wgeurts]

Spoiler:

Ok, I'm taking a shot again at my zombie setup again.

Divine Madness

1 Mutant Zombie

1 Cult Leader
1 Cult Extremist

1 Deprogrammer
1 Survivor Doctor
1 Surgeon
1 Macho Faction-Cop
9 Vanilla Townies

Win Conditions

Zombies

:
Wins when everyone is infected.

Cult

:
Wins when majority of all players remaining is a member of the cult.

Town

:
Wins when all zombies and cult members are dead.

Role Descriptions

• Mutant Zombie:
  
  Visits one person each night, that player becomes infected. An infected player player becomes a zombie after the next night.
  Nothing happens if (s)he visits a member of the cult and cannot be converted to the cult.
  
• Zombie:
  
  Visits one person each night, that player becomes infected. An infected player player becomes a zombie after the next night.
  Dies if (s)he visits a member of the cult and cannot be converted to the cult.
  
• Cult Leader:
  
  Member of the cult that shares a PR with the Cult Founder. (s)he can choose to visit one person and convert them to the cult. If the Cult Leader uses his ability the Cult Extremist can't use his that night.
  
• Cult Extremist:
  
  Member of the cult which shares a PT with the Cult Leader. (s)he can choose to visit one person to night-kill them. If the Cult Extremist uses his ability the Cult Leader can't use his that night.
  
• Cultist:
  
  A member of the cult that has no abilities.
  
• Deprogrammer:
  
  Visits one person each night, if that player is a Cultist he is converted to a Vanilla Townie.
  
• Survivor Doctor:
  
  Visits one person each night. That player looses any infected status and is protected from any night-kills. It the player targeted is a zombie that player dies.
  The Survivor Doctor can be infected but won't convert to a zombie.
  
• Surgeon:
  
  Visits one person each night, that player is protected from night-kills and 1 zombie visiting his target (if there are any) dies. The visited player is also protected from being infected or converted that night however he won't loose any existing infected status.
  
• Macho Faction-Cop:
  
  Visits one person per night and finds out if they are; Zombie/Cult/Town.
  Can't be protected from night-kills.
  
• Vanilla Townie:
  
  No abilities.

Extra Notes

Every day start the mod must say how many zombies are in game at that moment. (Not how many infected.)

I must have been insane a year ago, look at this setup!

[BBmolla]

That's a pretty average setup for someone who just came to MS.

[Sméagol]

2 ideas for micros:

You make the rules mafia

[1] mafia
[2] mafia 1-shot extra warning
[3] town 1-shot warning remover
[4] town 1-shot warning remover
[5] town rule investigator

// finds out which custom rule belongs to target player

[6] town vanilla
[7] town vanilla
[8] town vanilla
[9] town vanilla

Pre-game, players must add an additional rule to my general ruleset. I'm not going to look for any infractions of the custom rules, I'll leave that up to the players. Any custom rule infractions gives you one warning point, 3 warning and you're modkilled. I'd like to see example of what you'd come up with as rules, at the moment the only requirement I have is that they're indiscriminatory, but I'm also not fond of overly restrictive post restrictions. Since they're sent in pre-game, there's no use in making them anti-town or anti-mafia. As you can see, the actual set-up is pretty basic. Voting and mafia abilities as usual.

Secret Santa mafia

[1] 1-shot cop
[2] 1-shot doctor
[3] 1-shot follower
[4] 1-shot roleblocker
[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// finds out who gave what to target player

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker
[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[9] 1-shot fruit vendor

Above is not the role distribution, but the pool of abilities available to give away. During the dayphase, players can request one of them to give away to target player. During the nightphase, people can use the given abilities (if any). There's no restriction to how many a player can receive or use. With each death, the top ability becomes unavailable (so for example, with 5 players left, there's only the secret santa investigator, the tracker, and 3 fruit vendors). I'm still considering the actual available abilities, and the order in which they disappear.

I'd also appreciate links to similar games.

[JasonWazza]

2 ideas for micros:

You make the rules mafia

[1] mafia
[2] mafia 1-shot extra warning
[3] town 1-shot warning remover
[4] town 1-shot warning remover
[5] town rule investigator

// finds out which custom rule belongs to target player

[6] town vanilla
[7] town vanilla
[8] town vanilla
[9] town vanilla

Pre-game, players must add an additional rule to my general ruleset. I'm not going to look for any infractions of the custom rules, I'll leave that up to the players. Any custom rule infractions gives you one warning point, 3 warning and you're modkilled. I'd like to see example of what you'd come up with as rules, at the moment the only requirement I have is that they're indiscriminatory, but I'm also not fond of overly restrictive post restrictions. Since they're sent in pre-game, there's no use in making them anti-town or anti-mafia. As you can see, the actual set-up is pretty basic. Voting and mafia abilities as usual.

Secret Santa mafia

[1] 1-shot cop
[2] 1-shot doctor
[3] 1-shot follower
[4] 1-shot roleblocker
[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// finds out who gave what to target player

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker
[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[9] 1-shot fruit vendor

Above is not the role distribution, but the pool of abilities available to give away. During the dayphase, players can request one of them to give away to target player. During the nightphase, people can use the given abilities (if any). There's no restriction to how many a player can receive or use. With each death, the top ability becomes unavailable (so for example, with 5 players left, there's only the secret santa investigator, the tracker, and 3 fruit vendors). I'm still considering the actual available abilities, and the order in which they disappear.

I'd also appreciate links to similar games.

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

For Secret Santa, can mafia request the abilities as well?

Because it seems wise to send your fellow mafia a Roleblocker, and there are also likely to be multiple cops N1 which is probably way too strong (possibly make it a 2 shot cop with one investigation that will be sane and one that will be insane, to make the game not just instantly broken by giving the person below you on the list a Cop ability and having them also investigate said person below you.)

[Sméagol]

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

No point.. except for

fun

? Maybe? Also, I forgot to clarify that the rules disappear with the death of the corresponding player.

For Secret Santa, can mafia request the abilities as well?

Because it seems wise to send your fellow mafia a Roleblocker, and there are also likely to be multiple cops N1 which is probably way too strong (possibly make it a 2 shot cop with one investigation that will be sane and one that will be insane, to make the game not just instantly broken by giving the person below you on the list a Cop ability and having them also investigate said person below you.)

Secret Santa needs some more work, as I was thinking of other issues after posting, but:
Yes, Mafia may request abilities like everyone else. But maybe I wasn't clear, but there's only one of each ability available. Somewhere in the gamethread I'd post and update the list of available abilities, and I'll ask players to request something else if their request has already been taken.
As it is now, the cop ability is only available to one player, and only before the first death, so it's most likely not available at all assuming there's a day 1 lynch. That's one of the issues I'll have to think about. So hardly way too strong.
And of course the roleblocker will be interesting to the mafia, but they'll have to be the first to request it. And the secret santa investigator poses a risk to this strategy.

But one of the things I was thinking, is to make it more like an actual secret santa, with randomly distributing the secret santa's myself at the start of the dayphase, so everyone only has one secret santa (but on the other hand is guaranteed to have one). This would make the fruit vendors somewhat more useful, as at the moment they merely serve as indicators that I don't want any actual useful abilities when it's down to 3 players.

edit:

Oh and I don't know why I call everything 1-shot.. I forgot to clarify everything

has

to be used on the night you get it, or you forgo the option to use it. You can't "save up" abilities.

[JasonWazza]

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

No point.. except for

fun

? Maybe? Also, I forgot to clarify that the rules disappear with the death of the corresponding player.

Then that would make the Rule investigator even worse, because the rules can't be linked to an alignment, and you just become a reason to policy lynch people depending on their rules, which would then make it more likely for people to make the rules more tame.

Secret Santa needs some more work, as I was thinking of other issues after posting, but:
Yes, Mafia may request abilities like everyone else. But maybe I wasn't clear, but there's only one of each ability available. Somewhere in the gamethread I'd post and update the list of available abilities, and I'll ask players to request something else if their request has already been taken.
As it is now, the cop ability is only available to one player, and only before the first death, so it's most likely not available at all assuming there's a day 1 lynch. That's one of the issues I'll have to think about. So hardly way too strong.
And of course the roleblocker will be interesting to the mafia, but they'll have to be the first to request it. And the secret santa investigator poses a risk to this strategy.

But one of the things I was thinking, is to make it more like an actual secret santa, with randomly distributing the secret santa's myself at the start of the dayphase, so everyone only has one secret santa (but on the other hand is guaranteed to have one). This would make the fruit vendors somewhat more useful, as at the moment they merely serve as indicators that I don't want any actual useful abilities when it's down to 3 players.

edit:

Oh and I don't know why I call everything 1-shot.. I forgot to clarify everything

has

to be used on the night you get it, or you forgo the option to use it. You can't "save up" abilities.

So wait, you can't have the ability given out during the day and have it useable on that night considering they were alive that day because of a lynch?

Then what would be the interaction with someone dying that night, would that disable the cop before it works?

And logistically you could probably just all agree to give all the abilities to the most townie person, except the doctor, give that to someone else, and have the doctor protect the person who got all the other abilities (So in other words, A gives Doctor away to B, everyone else gives Abilities to A) possibly also giving the Santa investigator to someone if someone gives the doctor to the person with all the abilities because they are basically confirmed to be scum most likely.

[callforjudgement]

The extra warning role seems kind-of broken if you can kill someone with it, especially in scum hands.

I suspect the rule investigator is near-worthless except as a named townie (always useful in an open!) because there's not much reason not to just have everyone claim their rules, if the information is relevant.

[Sméagol]

Then that would make the Rule investigator even worse, because the rules can't be linked to an alignment, and you just become a reason to policy lynch people depending on their rules, which would then make it more likely for people to make the rules more tame.

I still expect players, or well, townies, to try to lynch the players they think are mafia. It's subtle, but the rule investigator can try to search for links between who's trying to enforce the custom rules. Most likely, they'll enforce their own rules, as that's what they're most familiar with. Combined with the fact that it's mostly the mafia who'd want to make use of the modkills.. That said, I could make it somewhat less subtle by having players only be able to enforce their own custom rule. Although I hadn't considered yet whether I should let players point out custom rule infractions publicly or privately. With this addition, it should only be privately. The warning given should also specify which rule they have broken, which I was already planning to do anyway, as warnings also disappear when the corresponding rule disappears (when the corresponding player dies).

So wait, you can't have the ability given out during the day and have it useable on that night considering they were alive that day because of a lynch?

Then what would be the interaction with someone dying that night, would that disable the cop before it works?

Like I said, I haven't considered what happens when someone gets lynched, I'll have to work that out first, although making the top ability disappear after 2 deaths is the easiest. But as it stand now:
Abilities

are

given out during the dayphase. or rather, at the start of the nightphase. Players develop reads, and base their requests upon them during the dayphase. Players get their ability at the start of the nightphase, and have 48 hours to decide what to do with it. Players get the ability regardless of the status of the secret santa, again, the only problem is that the cop ability disappears after 1 death. And to more easily show the easiest solution I propose:

[1] 1-shot cop

// disappears after 2 deaths

[2] 1-shot doctor

// disappears after 3 deaths

[3] 1-shot follower

// disappears after 4 deaths

[4] 1-shot roleblocker

// disappears after 5 deaths

[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// disappears after 6 deaths

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker

// disappears after 7 deaths

[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor

Though I do not want a tracker available when it's down to 3 players, so one of the abilities has got to go. I'm inclined to get rid of the follower in that case. Current proposal below.

And logistically you could probably just all agree to give all the abilities to the most townie person, except the doctor, give that to someone else, and have the doctor protect the person who got all the other abilities (So in other words, A gives Doctor away to B, everyone else gives Abilities to A) possibly also giving the Santa investigator to someone if someone gives the doctor to the person with all the abilities because they are basically confirmed to be scum most likely.

That's a valid point however, and something I'd want to avoid. Maybe I can come up with something else, but this actually makes me lean towards me randomly distributing secret santas myself. Though how likely is it that town can agree on who the "most townie" person is?

Anyway, with the changes:

[1] cop

// disappears after 2 deaths

[2] doctor

// disappears after

4

deaths

[3] roleblocker

// disappears after 4 deaths

[4] secret santa investigator

// disappears after

6

deaths

[5] tracker

// disappears after 6 deaths

[6] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[7] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[8] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[9] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

Secret santas are randomly distributed by

me

at the start of every dayphase. Every player gets a random other player's name, and it's up to them what they want to give him or her. Not sure what to do about players missing the deadline, but I'm inclined to simply not give their assigned player anything. Players receive their abilities at the start of the nightphase, and have the whole nightphase to decide on a target. Then the cycle repeats the following day-night cycle.

edit:

On the other hand, I also have to take into account the possibility of a kill failing.. So maybe I'll revert back to the old system of abilties disappearing.

[wgeurts]

Land of the Rising Sun:

Mafia Watcher
Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon

Town Ninja Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Vanilla-Cop
7 Vanilla Townies

• This setup uses a Daystart.

[wgeurts]

Whodunnit?

Mafia Jailkeeper
Mafia Jailkeeper-Backup
Mafia Goon

Bulletproof Serial Killer

Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town 1-Shot Vigilante
9 Vanilla Townies

• This setup uses a Daystart.

[LlamaFluff]

Training Hospital

• 7 Town Semi-Doctors
  
• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• A player is protected from a kill if at least two semi-Doctors are protecting them. A single semi-Doctor protection does nothing by itself.
  
• As usual, the mod doesn't comment on who Doctors protected or if a kill was prevented, just on who died (if anyone) and their alignment.

I don't think this is breakable; scum can't protect people but they can choose not to shoot a person who would give them away as having not protected. Town can certainly coordinate to keep specific townies alive but that's an intended part of the setup. I believe optimal strategy for town is to direct the protects of the scummiest-looking players but to leave everyone else to make a free choice with their night action. (Optimal play for Mafia is to attempt to kill every night, although taking "long shots" that have a high chance of hitting a protection is reasonable; if Mafia don't kill, that's a 7:2 nightless, which is known to be very townsided.)

This could also work at 10:3, I think. Not 100% sure on balance in either case but it has to be close.

I like looking into this as a 13 player setup. Having 10 or more players is very useful for longevity of a game because it no longer is a micro setup, and while micro setups can be ran in the open queue, they only count as micro experience therefore are rarely if ever ran. Why wait a month to run the game in the open queue that you can run in a week in the micro queue?

[callforjudgement]

Land of the Rising Sun:

Mafia Watcher
Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon

Town Ninja Tracker
Town Roleblocker
Town Vanilla-Cop
7 Vanilla Townies

• This setup uses a Daystart.

The Ascetic has no reason not to perform every kill, as long as they're alive. In particular, the Town Roleblocker should no-action every night until the Ascetic is dead, making it easier for the Town Tracker to gain information (they will get a "Vanilla-Cop/Watcher", "Ascetic", or "someone else" result via distinguishing between action, blocked, no-action), which is a really good way to narrow it down (another advantage of this is that it means the Watcher can't figure out who the Roleblocker is by watching them block someone). Existence of the Mafia Watcher means that town can't break the setup via directing the Vanilla-Cop target, which is a good thing here.

I'd need more thought to figure out if the town has the right amount of power here. Their power is basically entirely investigative; they have a

lot

of it but it's also quite awkward to use. I think that the town probably has too much power, come to think of it; two of the town roles can detect the Mafia Ascetic (so town is getting two investigations for that player every night), and once the Ascetic is dead (along with, probably, the townie that caught them), the town is

still

getting two partial investigations per night (from the Roleblocker, who starts actioning, and whichever other power role the scum didn't kill). That's probably balanced if the town doesn't find scum any other way, but the probability that town find scum via dayplay seems to outweigh the probability that scum kill town power roles overnight before they have useful results. (It's also very swingy, depending on how early the Ascetic dies.) Because this is an Open, the town also have the possibility of forcing "not vanilla" results to claim, taking advantage of the "named townie" aspect of all the town roles being different; I'm not sure when they should use it (and/or whether the Vanilla-Cop should breadcrumb results), but the possibility can only help.

[callforjudgement]

We Need Another 4P

• 2 Mafia Lovers
  
• 2 Vanilla Townies
  
• Must-lynch (no no-lynching allowed)
  
• If a townie is lynched, that player gets one try to call the scumteam; if they get it right, town win, otherwise scum win

This is about the simplest 4p I could come up with. It also has the interesting property that everything happens within one game day, which is probably a downside. This game mostly defies EV calculations, but if you used the (banned due to provable randomness rules) strategy of "pick a random player, everyone votes for them" you get a 50% town win rate (if the chosen player is scum, the reluctance of the other scum to vote for them despite the strategy will confirm them both).

Note that it is possible for scum to vote for each other in this setup! (Although not to hammer, obviously.) Obviously, they have to hope that the lynch doesn't go through, but it may be necessary to try to seem town.

[BBmolla]

In essence that's mechanically the same as We Need a Fifth just in simpler terms and you have to call both scum at once instead of one after the other.

[BBmolla]

Domination Mafia

9 Players

3 Mafia Goons

6 Vanilla Townies

• White Flag
  
• Normal lynching mechanics do not apply.
  
• Everyone has two votes. These votes may not be used on the same player.
  
• Once someone has been voted by majority, they cannot be unvoted.
  
• The two voted are the only players Mafia may nightkill. They must nightkill one of them.

I was literally coming back to this thread to resuggest this forgetting I'd already suggested it...

[BBmolla]

Kill List Mafia

9 Players

2 Mafia Goons

7 Vanilla Townies

• In addition to the normal lynch, players may vote for a player to add to the mafia's "kill list." This vote can be changed at any time but is set in stone when the normal lynch is reached.
  
• The day can not end until everyone has submitted a vote for the "kill list." If a lynch is achieved, the flip will be delayed till everyone has voted. Once the lynch is achieved votes for the lynch and "kill list" may not be changed.
  
• The players on the "kill list" are the options mafia have to kill during that night. As long as a player has one vote on the kill list, mafia may kill them.
  
• If only one player is on the "kill list," mafia may choose to kill anyone they want.
  
• Mafia must kill.

[BBmolla]

I imagine that version is more fun? Might be less balanced though.

[BBmolla]

Dead on Selection

9 Players

2 Mafia Goons

7 Vanilla Townies

• Once a player is lynched, they select two players. Only one of those two players may be killed by the mafia that night.
  
• Mafia must kill.

That's probably even better I think.