A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Tammy]

Actually there's a bunch of stuff I've just skimmed through that I need to go back and read. I'll do that some time this week. Maybe Wednesday.

[The Pied Piper]

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

This strongly reads like scum preparing for what they know to be a pistachion townflip.

I don't think that it's natural that Mirhawk questioned the claim in the way that he did and ended up following along anyways; the earlier votes made sense because they didn't really consider the two millers possibility and they didn't really consider the idea that Amihan was scum counterclaiming but Mirhawk did and he went forward with it anyways.

I'm not really sure it requires a pistachio town flip, though; sure, he could have been doing it because he got greedy and wanted to cash in on two mislynches instead of just one but I could also see him expressing skepticism and voting along to throw mud at you without looking scummy for defending his partner in case she was going to be lynched soon after.

Are you a miller or not?

Stop implying you've a miller and spit it out.

Are you a miller?

Pfft. I don't think Ami's even a miller.

It doesn't make sense to post these things and still have your vote on Pistachio.

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Going to vote and then talk to GM about it. If she feels differently we will certainly change our vote, but I am frankly starting to see not-town here.

I'm not sure how if she doesn't believe that Ami cc'd, but is willing to jump onto the building train that was happening that early page on.

I'm certainly a lot more sure of Mirhawk being scum than I was when I was reading early yesterday.

~M

I am revoking my town read on you.

Can we talk about why Mirhawk is your strongest townread? I can maybe understand a townread on his early play and I guess it's possible to townread his later play a little bit, but strongest townread? Really?

It reads to me as an implied CC without explicitly stating that she is indeed a miller.

She told pistachio that she shouldn't claim miller when there is an Actual Town Miller in the setup.
She asked someone what they thought about "her claim".
She referenced the possibility of two millers in the setup a couple of times.

You really shouldn't need more than that; when she's implied that she is miller as heavily as she has, it's not like she's going to get away with retracting and going "I never said I was town Miller so no one can be mad at me!!".

I am with Mirhawk Ami was being incredibly weird about the claim tbh.
+ the follow up push on Mirhawk was really baseless.

Oh look both Mirhawk and Beeboy saying the same thing yet both of them voted Ami's CC on Pistahio. Both of them had the same actions on wanting a flavor claim && a claim.

I'm positive that one of these two are probably not town.

~M

Except that when beeboy started having doubts, he unvoted and went elsewhere. Mirhawk didn't.

I did not like Mirhawk's reaction. It smelled of not wanting to get caught believing the CC too easily. But I have often had the same attitude of not being sure when I'm town, so that leaves me with mixed feelings.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with not being sure, but I do think that it was weird that he seemed to be really unsure but then voted Pistch like he believed the claim and then left the vote on Pistach despite obviously not believing the claim at all. Although, couldn't tell you the scum motivation for it other than maybe he's one of those people who is really crappy at faking read switches?

Sorry for any excessively delayed responses, I'm currently out of town.

Just reading over everything that's happened, I'd like Ami to clarify themself on what exactly they're trying to say pertaining to Pistachio's Miller claim. Is it a CC? A hinting at it? Just trying to see how people react?

My current scumreads at this time would probably be somewhere in the block of Hiplop, Cakez, and Beeboy. I have a question for you three: What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

@the late RVS matter, I can only be around early morning and laaate evening for this week. Sorry about that.

Why did you have those three scum reads and why are you specifically interested in that question?
This post makes it seem like you just picked three scum reads out of a hat and asked some questions just to make it look like you're doing something; it really doesn't look like there's any form of legitimate thought process behind this at all.

EP I have a question about this post. When you made it you expected me to react to, to avoid beating around the bush normally I get really pissed off. If I got pissed of by your remarks which is what you expected me to do, what would you have done if people started to scum read me and push me? I really don't see the motive in you trying to get me to react to you calling my wagon shit.
Like it is really bothering me I can see tons of reasons why scum would do it but literally 0 reasons town would.

here are several examples of what I would expect someone to respond to me.
1. Justify your push on us based on the reasons that I have attacked.
2. Respond to my attack on your push.
3. Be convinced that your push is bad.
You have done none of these.

throwing out some townreads: spiffeh, beeboy, wronglynch, amihan.
i'm going out so I won't be around. This is just a quick post, i only did a skim of the most recent pages.

-EP

If the goal here is to get beeboy to stop tunneling you, it seems smarter to engage him on the few points than he's brought up as opposed to calling his post garbage and then asking him to do something about it.

On a side note though, liking the new rap battle persona.

We see the popular stances being taken in 452 which isn't necessarily bad but it's a scum puzzle piece.
455 picking and choosing the contentless beeboy posts, ignoring the actual reasons (no matter how terrible they are, they're still reasons) then says "hey I'll come to my own conclusions, I'm a free thinker!!! Townread me!"

Check this out too. I don't see a difference between dramonic's axel posts and the posts that podo picks out of beeboy's iso. But no "hey dramonic you suck" from podoboq HMM? HMM?!?

455 was focused more on an attitude than beeboy's push as a whole.
I don't understand the "I'm a free thinker townread me!!!!!" point even a little bit; I think that podo didn't like beeboy being condescending and was telling him that he wasn't going to sheep just because beeboy told him to.

Disagree with the Cakez push.
Just played with town-cakez and the quality of his day 1 reads really isn't alignment indicative.

Why do you think that his reads are bad?

Unvote;

Vote: pistachi0n

Unless Amiham comes back and says her claim was, in fact, some kind of gambit, this is just what needs to happen. I don't believe in Two millers.

Will say that I think that it's pretty foolish to push for pistachio just because she was counterclaimed; I don't like that she's done nothing except claim miller the entire game so far, but this is an easy vote and easy place for scum to hide and will leave us in the middle of nowheresville if we're not looking at behavior.

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

What?

Why would Amihan counterclaim as scum unless she wanted to mislynch you?

I like pist's reaction to the claim. I don't think scum would actually counter by saying "well technically you DID post first" especially when that was factually incorrect anyway.

I think that was probably a genuine mistake regardless of alignment. Don't you?

And which I was hoping was him kicking into gear (and which I was town-nudging him for). I have a fairly specific way of reading him relating to certain types of trolling and aggression under pressure. I can't say I've seen it yet but I recognise and appreciate his town-play when it is present.

I can see why you thought that was me, but it wasn't, and I'm perfectly capable of playing a calm, reasonable game with a minimal amount of trolling. I am more than just a one trick pony, True Ogre.

[The Pied Piper]

I'll townread Ami for now since she says it was a gambit for reaction-testing.

I agree Mirhawk's reaction was scummy, but one thing I notice along with it was Mirhawk's reaction when I first claimed miller--"ugh" followed by "I had a bad experience." So the combination of those posts makes me think he just doesn't want to play with a miller. Mirhawk--what was your experience and how has it shaped how you play the game?

I'm going back to beeboy for now, though.

VOTE: beeboy

How was Mirhawk's reaction not scummy even if he hadn't played with millers before?

True Ogre's entrance post is pretty balls.
Withholding vote is fine, ESPECIALLY not after beeboy tells him to vote us and then ogre does.
Look at how terrible withholding vote is there. Ogre OPENLY admits to being unsure of people that they want to sort, that they are considering to maybe be scum, and then just... doesn't vote. nope.
"I will entertain Sakura argument" is basically saying "I don't want to commit yet (which is fine) but i'm not gonna do anything about it (which isn't fine)"
"keeping an eye on axelrod" uh huh.

Can you put this into English though?

What's wrong with him not voting?

I asked this question too!

If your case is based on being able to read them really well then the overgeneralized stuff is not necessary and I need to cut through stuff I don't buy into to see something that makes sense.

The only part of beeboy's push that makes sense is the part where he said that hiplop was going for an easy push, which is why hiplop's frustration with everything makes as much sense as it does.

It seems pretty clear to me that it is a genuine push, though.

I am starting to get tired so will try to continue to channel being Zen and thoughtful, but if I end up missing a bunch of things and speaking gibberish then that's why.

[beeboy]

Can we talk about why Mirhawk is your strongest townread? I can maybe understand a townread on his early play and I guess it's possible to townread his later play a little bit, but strongest townread? Really?

Uhh you basically just said except I must like his early play more than yours.
What are your top town reads right now?

[True Ogre]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

I'd like to sort Skybird, Axel, davesaz. I'm leaning dave as town, I need more from skybird but she seems relatively genuine and Axel I don't get at all. Dave I'm okay with so far.
Towning Tammy, beeboy, podo, leaning there on pistachion and amian.
Premilimary townreads but these are where I'm at.

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

mala I'm going to say seems okay at the moment.

[Amihan]

I think that was probably a genuine mistake regardless of alignment. Don't you?

Yes, but of all the arguments to pursue, is that the one scum chooses when counterclaimed? I don't think so.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not sure you understand me.

[True Ogre]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

So much? No. Interested because I liked Sakura's entrance and also wanting to sort you, which I actually relate to a sakura-town with you in the game? Sure.
I was wondering where beeboy was goint with that push. Came in to give a couple of opinions. Beeboy backed off sakura (who I was happy to see their sort on you).
Shrugged and voted seniors.
However I'm still kind of waiting for sakura's sort on you because I'd like to compare notes.

[The Pied Piper]

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

[Amihan]

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

Is your point that the error here doesn't point to either town or scum because the error seems genuine either way?

If so I agree on that. But I don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight a counterclaim by calling it a suspicious scum fakeclaim and voting me, rather than trying to either posit that 2 millers is possible or that I was gambitting a miller claim as town.

[The Pied Piper]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

So much? No. Interested because I liked Sakura's entrance and also wanting to sort you, which I actually relate to a sakura-town with you in the game? Sure.
I was wondering where beeboy was goint with that push. Came in to give a couple of opinions. Beeboy backed off sakura (who I was happy to see their sort on you).
Shrugged and voted seniors.
However I'm still kind of waiting for sakura's sort on you because I'd like to compare notes.

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

[The Pied Piper]

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

Is your point that the error here doesn't point to either town or scum because the error seems genuine either way?

If so I agree on that. But I don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight a counterclaim by calling it a suspicious scum fakeclaim and voting me, rather than trying to either posit that 2 millers is possible or that I was gambitting a miller claim as town.

Ah, gotcha.
I don't agree that she wouldn't try to fight you; if you're scum and someone claims role evidence that points to you as scum, I don't think it's an unnatural response to point to the other person as scum.

Does that make sense?

[The Pied Piper]

Can we talk about why Mirhawk is your strongest townread? I can maybe understand a townread on his early play and I guess it's possible to townread his later play a little bit, but strongest townread? Really?

Uhh you basically just said except I must like his early play more than yours.

What?

[The Pied Piper]

Off the top of my head, I like you, Spiffeh, Amihan, Cakez, Mala/GM. I like some other people for other reasons, but those are the big ones.

[Tammy]

[beeboy]

What?

I meant... what you said to justify a town read on ogre is why I am town reading him.

I am sorry >.<

[Tammy]

And if you don't like me but you like mala/gm how come you ignored me asking you to talk to me about them when I was concerned with mala?

[The Pied Piper]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

In my opinion, the only one of these things that is actually a scumtell is "not engaging".
I'm interested in who you are because a lot of my recent scumgames have been breaking the meta of "Nacho only trolls as town".

[The Pied Piper]

And if you don't like me but you like mala/gm how come you ignored me asking you to talk to me about them when I was concerned with mala?

What?

[Amihan]

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

You would point it out either way because in that vulnerable position either alignment's first priority is to lend themselves credibility, and one way to do that is by undermining your opponent's.

I agree on your point. But I simply don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight back by maintaining the 1v1 status quo. Scum pistachion, with her incorrect assumption in mind, would think I was just fakeclaiming Miller, and the more helpful course of action would be trying to get me to admit it. Kind of like Mirhawk.

[SirCakez]

No he obviously did realize it, and then decided it looked bad and backtracked on it two posts later. Yeah that's a thought process people have, I've done it before as scum.
No voting there sucks because there was definitely enough to make scumreads from at that point. He didn't say anything about changing his mind until prodded pages later, he just naked voted.
Yeah I am

True Ogre said he was leaning that way and was holding his vote. bee boy then asked him to please vote seniors and he did. I don't see that as backtracking. Soemtimes people vote when people ask then to early game. He didn't change his mind pages later. bee boy asked him and he voted. You don't need to have reasons with the vote as they were in his earlier post.

Be prepared to scum read me then because I am the waffle queen.

Argh we're going in circles now
At least I haven't seen any waffling from you yet

[beeboy]

Cakes isn't that what I told you to get you to disengage from me

[True Ogre]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

beeboy pushes on Seniors.
Reading beeboy as town.
Reading Seniors as potentially scum.
Reading Sakura as town.
beeboy continues to push on seniors but pushes on Sakura.
??? waiting. Post my first post
beeboy retracts push on Sakura. Didn't actually expect that, but it strikes me as town-thinking to change opinion.

Followed beeboy onto seniors, at a whim actually. Liked him, disliked Seniors.

I'm obviously going to need to check out Seniors better than pure sheeping soon. However I'm comfy here right now.

[SirCakez]

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

You have an issue with us because we're agreeing on a read? What?

[The Pied Piper]

Hmm good morning's posts look 10 times better than mala's which is weird.

Nacho when you get here talk to me please?

I haven't gotten to this post yet.
I never said that I didn't like you, but I haven't really gotten to you posting anything yet.
I have a feeling I'm going to end up town reading you because of the Mala things that seem to be brewing, but I'd rather wait until I get to it.