A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Amihan]

Mirhawk is my second strongest scumread and I am willing to lynch him, I just feel more strongly about Skybird. I think her last post addressing me with "that's just how I play, sorry" was potentially promising? Not town, but I think if she's town she'll be able to set me right there.

[davesaz]

I've only been skimming today to see if anything caught fire.
Happy to see Nacho, think that slot looks townish, though I want to check a previous game for comparison.
Ogre looks more town having seen more posts.
Not sure what's up with Dramonic, his reads feel really strange. Seriously lacking in reasons. If they were scumreads with a chance to grow legs I'd be concerned that he's taking town's temperature on them.
Lots of lurkers, but too early to really do much about them.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm liking it. The plot part in your hydra I don't even based on the engagement we've had so far. That seemed absolutely irrelevant to finding scum. What's your take on Axel. Plot avoided it.

You said I avoided Axel but I didn't. I am townleaning him:

I'm also willing to drop it. What are your thoughts on Axel?

I liked the big musical splashy entrance because it reminds me of anti's thing where he quotes song lyrics at the beginning of games and that was cool. I didn't like him getting bogged down in talking about hydrae in place of scumhunting but once he started scumhunting I was pleased.

I think he's on the wrong side of Mirhawk vs davesaz, but it's understandable because part of their argument was about him and Mirhawk was defending Axel from davesaz.

I can understand his points against Seniors and I like that when he lends his voice to beeboy's push, he does it with his own points instead of just signal boosting things that have already been said, though as I said, I'd like to give Seniors a bit of space to see what they do with it.

I don't think Axelrod makes sense as being scum together with Mirhawk or Seniors or Swordsworth (who nobody seems to be pushing at all in spite of his lacklustre posting).

@podoboq regarding 726 oh i haven't read that game yet beyond post game commentary / seeing somebody talk about it somewhere (in a mafia discussion thread i think but I can't remember which one) and saying something about scum losing because they didn't know they were scum and played too town and I just assumed that was you. thanks for the correction.



There's another post of podoboq's that I wanted to reply to but I don't have it in me right now.

Mala, I saw you replied and I appreciate it and I will reply when I can <3

[Skybird]

True Ogre exists.

Witholding vote for now, not convinced that major conversationalists contain scum.

However Seniors could certainly be scum with what they've said so far and I like beeboy for the push. So I'm conflicted as I don't really buy the Sakura-scum argument but will entertain it.

Like Wrong Lynch's posting quantity so far, but the quality is lukewarm. Also waiting to see more from nacho-hydra, although I like the question he did ask.

Axelrod also involved in hydra-discussion after some comments in 56, 61, 68 which appear quite defensive/elusive. Keeping an eye on.

Skybird, greetings to your ancestors. What do you think of davesaz' posting so far? I would like to compare impressions.

I've played one or two games with Dave but not too recently. I liked his entrance. He jumped in and questioned something he saw. I also agreed with post 90 where he saw BeeBoy's buddy question as a potential trap. I read it the same way. Overall I'm leaning town on him. How about you? What do you think? Any players that stick out good or bad?

Skybird, why do you reach out to True Ogre first?

He asked me a question. What are your thoughts on True Ogre?

[Skybird]

Reading through the last 4-5 pages gives me warm fuzzies on Ogre and Pied Piper. Both slots can be town for now.

The back and forth between Tammy and TWL was eh. More noise than anything AI to me.

[Spiffeh]

Amihan is definitely town

[Spiffeh]

Boo I think Pied Piper is town now

[Spiffeh]

Tammy is definitely town

[Axelrod]

The reason I was asking about Musical claims is because, from a set-up perspective it seems to me there are basically three possible scenarios:

(1) The Mafia are all from the same Musical. This would be very flavorful, but subject to being broken by mass-claiming. So if the Mod. did this, he'd almost certainly be providing the scum with some kind of false-claims to prevent the game being broken open D1 by exactly what I'm talking about. But even if that's the case, we do force the Mafia into those false-claims, make them lie, and possibly there's a way to take advantage of that later. A "Musical" Cop, for example. In a scenario like this, a "Musical" Cop would essentially be an actual Cop, but might not even know it.

The risk/downside would be if there are scum roles/abilities that benefit from knowing which show someone is from. My feeling is that - if such roles exist - it probably plays to both sides.

(2) The Mafia are not all from the same Musical, but, flavor-fully, they are all "villains," or evil characters from their respective Musicals. Again, if that were the case, we'd expect the Mod. to give them some kind of cover roles. The Mod. might also give members of the Town scummy-sounding roles from their Musicals, which could further give the Mafia cover. In this scenario, they don't necessarily have to lie about their "Musical", if their mod-provided false-claim is from the same one, but their might be other benefits - if there's an imbalance in the way the Musicals are divided, for example. Or roles that can "character" Cop. Same kind of risk/rewards as above.

(3) The Mafia are not all from the same Musical and they are not all "evil" characters. i.e. they are just randomly spread out across the whole of Musicaldom. There's no flavor to this, but it keeps players from mod-gaming or "cracking" the game by mass-claims. In this scenario, the claim probably doesn't do much, but also probably doesn't hurt.

Of course, the other reason for asking was just to feel out people's reactions. The only real one I got was this from podoboq:

I think this idea is cute, but I'd rather not put any stock in flavor claiming. Maybe a townie has a highly scummy musical for flavor. Somebody will use it as an argument to lynch him. I think it's cool to do that at some point in the game, but round-robin flavor claiming day one seems to early.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable (and also natural sounding) response, and I'm town-leaning podoboq (not just for that, but his posts in general).

I know I'm going to get blasted for pointless "set-up" speculation, but I don't care. Bring it on.

[podoboq]

Sorry I've been a bit absent recently. Kinda haven't had much to add. Here's a tiny readslist.

TOWN

Amihan: Her gambit has been immensely useful for the town as a reaction test. If she's scum, she made a huge mistake.

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

beeboy: Too much loud nonsense to be scum. He drew

way

too much attention to himself.

Cakez: I think his perspective on things is very towny. He's open to contribute, engages in just about every conversaiton, and his opinions seem to align with mine for the most part.

SCUM

FriendlessSeniors: Not contributing in a meaningful way, and attacks Cakez for what is clearly bs.

dramonic: The only way dramonic seems to know how to contribute is by flinging shit at people then ducking away and seeing what stuck. He's scumreading people, but refuses to provide any logic as to why. I've asked him why he's scumreading Axelrod, but no response.

Mirhawk: Hate hate hate the response to Amihan's gambit.

Swordsworth: Hate his response about as much, but he has contributed less, so I'm willing to back away from him now on the expectation that there is more to come.


Assume everyone else is null at this point.

[podoboq]

Apologies, pistachi0n.

*she

[Sakura Hana]

Oh my god...
About 500 posts since i left... looks like i wont be catching up anytime soon orz

[Sakura Hana]

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

So this is the first thing that caught my attention since I remembered pist actually being CC'd. I went and ISO'd Ami and she retracted her claim.
One question why's your townread on pist being based off "no counter claim"?
Point 1) Pistachion could be scum fake claiming miller, Pistachion could be scum or town being an actual miller, lack of counter claim doesnt equal town, specially since the setup is unknown, the only thing the miller thing means is that we cant rely on a cop to check it.
Point 2) Nevertheless Pistachion's 560 Looks towny.
UNVOTE:

[Sakura Hana]

I'm liking dramonic so far but he probably needs to hug a cattle prod.

Why?

[Sakura Hana]

I'm sorry waht? Are you having trouble reading my first post and the second post?

I don't know what you're confused about and because I'm town reading you and don't have a particular need to get this addressed let's drop it and talk Axel.

What
The
Heck?

[Sakura Hana]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

In my opinion, the only one of these things that is actually a scumtell is "not engaging".
I'm interested in who you are because a lot of my recent scumgames have been breaking the meta of "Nacho only trolls as town".

I'm pretty sure you're perfectly capable of engaging ppl as scum.

[Sakura Hana]

I'm following why you think beeboy is town thanks to the Wisdom comparison, but why do you think Friendless Seniors is town?

Interestingly enough

I feel like the way Hippy's been treated is similar to how i was treated on "that horrid blitz"

with beeboy playing the role of Wisdom.

For reference: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7599828 Your other head was there, you can ask him.

[Sakura Hana]

Im gonna stop here for now because im getting

lazy

tired, if there's any immediate concerns that need to be addressed by me please let me know, saw that nacho was posting and wanted to check that out, but i'm at a loss because his catchup looks townie but some of his posts (in particular the ones i quoted) feel awkward. I want to engage him in real time ASAP.

Other stuff i noticed during that time that Tammy is super town.

Gonna go ahead with my FoS from earlier and turn it into a vote.

VOTE: Sword

[Sakura Hana]

Oh yeah another thing, Axel, i want reads from you.

[podoboq]

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

So this is the first thing that caught my attention since I remembered pist actually being CC'd. I went and ISO'd Ami and she retracted her claim.
One question why's your townread on pist being based off "no counter claim"?
Point 1) Pistachion could be scum fake claiming miller, Pistachion could be scum or town being an actual miller, lack of counter claim doesnt equal town, specially since the setup is unknown, the only thing the miller thing means is that we cant rely on a cop to check it.
Point 2) Nevertheless Pistachion's 560 Looks towny.
UNVOTE:

If pistachi0n had done scummy things, I might not be reading her as town. But claiming a town role (which to my understanding is usually unique) in your opening post is too bold for scum. It's entirely possible that she's just scum getting cute, but I'd seriously bet against it.

Things could change my read on her, but it needs to overcome the strength of her claim.

[Friendless Seniors]

Yeah, honestly, I do. This game moved at a WAY faster pace out of the gate than my newbie game, has over double the players, and most seem to have some meta knowledge on eachother. I considered replacing out, but I think this is a good opportunity to learn, so I'm gonna stay the course.

I'm trying to engage though, and I think I've been providing some value.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

OK so. This actually changes my read to probably something like weak town
A lot of what I saw from you (I think) can be explained because of this

Yo so I think Podo is town because his posts are actually good and Seniors is tunneling him for bad reasons.

This is all around one of the worst posts in the game

And mirhawk is cool for agreeing with me, and I like that vote too.

Aren't you worried that mirhawk might be whiteknighting you?

i guess it could be pressure? but davesaz is votable here

You've played with davesaz in a few games now, in ny192 where you were a lategame replacement and he was lynched on day 1 but I know you put considerable effort into your catchup, perhaps enough to get somewhat of a feel for him, and in o615 where you were town together, and for a while in ny183 where you were town together before you replaced out.

You dislike his post and you call him voteable, but is he scummy? Are you scumreading him? Do you think that he is scummy but not scum?

beeboy is oozing this vibe of "HOLY SHIT I CAUGHT SCUM I'M SO EXCITED" he's legitimately getting into the game and I like that, having a really hard time believing that it's faked.

I like this point especially since it's about you.

THIS IS EP
ROB GUESS WHAT!!!! I GOT INTO BERKELEY

Congrats!

I'm getting the feeling that piper is asking a few questions that are somewhat directionless but that feeling is REALLY HARD to grab ahold of and probably nonexistent. basically a real nullread here and I'm really curious as to why spiff thought they were scum

Because I wrote too many words. Like I do in every single game that I play when I forget and post when I'm tired/distracted/not feeling well/upset about something else/etc.

Anyway, I've done two alignment indicative things so far. Someday, someone will be able to read me.

I like mirhawk's entrance posts.
okay i read over mirhawk's current posts and there is seriously no reason for there to be a scumread on mirhawk.

Please address wrong lynch's and my points against mirhawk. This isn't good enough.

podoboq has a potential scum iso.
check it.

I need to think some more about podoboq. What do you think of his reply to your question about whether he feels disconnected from the game?

I understand that you don't have to have cohesion in a group of players that you pick out to be scum, but the fact that you think all 4 [tictac, ogre, seniors, beeboy] are scummy to some degree shows that you aren't actually evaluating and analyzing your reads to see if they are correct via what the game state looks like.

Your current bet for the scumteam is podoboq, davesaz, axel, cakez, and ogre? Can you talk some about the dynamics between this group of players? (or some other group of players if i guessed wrong?)

Okay so.

Mirhawk question:

Correct me if I have the context wrong, but I'm pretty sure I was talking about a different point that I hadn't expressed my opinion on, but Mirhawk happened to have the same opinion as me. I think it was the hydra policy lynch business.

Davesaz question:

At that point, I thought he was a possibility for scum. I don't really know where I'm at anymore, I don't have a lot of reads except for some key ones on some people. But yeah, I thought davesaz was pretty town in Hope plus one and I don't really trust myself to give an objective judgment for gameshop.

My beeboy townread:

Explain what you mean when you say you like the point?

Points against Mirhawk:

I'll ISO mirhawk again before looking at your points and then address them.

Scumteam theory:

again, I'll have to do some ISOing before I can get back to you on this question.

Considering Amihan is town and that skybird case is pretty good I think I might want to sheep there, but give me a second. I also want to touch base with hippy on reads, also I hope you are well plotinus.

Go read some of my games Ami. This is the way I play all the time. Just like you, people have a problem with my playstyle too and I honestly don't care. Your decision to suddenly scum read me is noted.

Awful post.
1. "My playstyle is naturally scummy and as a result you don't have any grounds to scumread me"
2. "However, this implies that any reasonable person would have grounds to scumread me based on my playstyle if they weren't familiar with it"
3. "But that doesn't apply to you, I'm going to say that your sudden scumread on me is worthy of note"
oh my god that's terrible

happy scumday pistachion

Part two of the trump wall coming up next

-EP

[Friendless Seniors]

True Ogre's entrance post said that he was town reading beeboy and considering following him onto seniors. He also says that he's considering Axelrod as scum. Beeboy, his townread that he's considering sheeping says "beeboy! sheep me!". He follows. What exactly is unreasonable about that?

Consider this mentality.
Ogre's read the game, they've seen beeboy yelling at the playerlist to vote us
Ogre thinks that we might be scum and wants to see where the wagon goes because that could lead to more clear read on us
Ogre waits until beeboy calls them out SPECIFICALLY. Why? Why do you do this, Ogre?
Beeboy has been hard-pushing our lynch before asking Ogre to sheep him, why do they wait for beeboy to ask?

Ok I was thinking Plot could really be scum here but Nacho's post seems supertown to me

If the goal here is to get beeboy to stop tunneling you, it seems smarter to engage him on the few points than he's brought up as opposed to calling his post garbage and then asking him to do something about it.

did I hallucinate the part where I quoted the points that I thought were bad and told him they were bad and why
because if i did then i'll be happy to do that now.

Followed beeboy onto seniors, at a whim actually. Liked him, disliked Seniors.

ehhhhhhhhhhh I still don't really get it
what was your mentality behind your lack of vote on us in your entrance
that being said your recent posts are okay

huh, not as wally as I thought
VOTE: skybird
this is a cool vote, see last post
i don't see traction on cakez but i haven't looked at votecounts

-EP

[Friendless Seniors]

i'm mafiad out peeps
i'll get back to you later today (or is it tomorrow where you are?) plot so stay tuned!

-Also EP

[Friendless Seniors]

okay one more thing
i totally exaggerated when i said cakez 690 was worst post in the game
basically that tunneling accusation and the podo read was really lazy that's all

-EP and that's the last you'll be hearing from me for now

[Sakura Hana]

Am I really the only person that has a problem with this progression?

Good "morning" everyone, here's to a great game.

VOTE: SirCakez

Why not?

<snip>
@Swordsworth: It's a bit too late for RVSing, why didn't you comment on anything else?

FoS: Swordsworth

Sorry for any excessively delayed responses, I'm currently out of town.

Just reading over everything that's happened, I'd like Ami to clarify themself on what exactly they're trying to say pertaining to Pistachio's Miller claim. Is it a CC? A hinting at it? Just trying to see how people react?

My current scumreads at this time would probably be somewhere in the block of Hiplop, Cakez, and Beeboy. I have a question for you three: What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

@the late RVS matter, I can only be around early morning and laaate evening for this week. Sorry about that.