A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Axelrod]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

[pistachi0n]

Are you looking for validation?

Are you looking for a reason to call this scummy?

I don't need a reason.

[Mirhawk]

Lol sure. I'm not the one who you're going to have to justify this to later anyhow. I already think you're scum.

[davesaz]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

What did you find righteous about it?

[True Ogre]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

I'd also like to know how your opinion on podo influences the game's outcome to the point that "we're just going to lose" if he's scum since your opinion is that he's town.

[Ranger]

I really like this reads progression you are doing, but it would be even better with a little more commentary on what is making people shift around for you.

Well if you want it, just ask.

For instance, if you asked, "what changed between pages 6 and 8?", then I would answer to the best of my ability, and then give bonus cred by further saying what the

current

read is.

I'm not gonna spend that time by default.

Omg Ranger's reads are pretty fantastic.

Well, I

do

have a reputation to uphold!

[Ranger]

can someone explain why they feel that way?

Not really, but I actually feel empathy for you at that point. Tammy's posting did feel like a betrayal, but there's no tangible reason for why. She's not scum, so maybe it's her pushing someone who is also clearly not scum? (beeboy.)
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, davesaz, podoboq}
{The Wrong Lynch, Spiffeh, Axelrod}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

[True Ogre]

When I said that Seniors was "worthy" of a vote I was NOT BEING SERIOUS. I WAS JOKING. At that point in the game, I had zero opinion of Seniors. Or, my opinion was that he hadn't yet done anything. Certainly not enough to justify how much BeeBoy seemed to be pushing him.

In your 46, sure. I'm not referring to that comment or any pun-related posts (and I haven't asked anything about this before so I'm not sure why you're getting frustrated about it).

I'm talking mainly about your sidling up to the Seniors wagon and then finding reasons to call them scummy in the same post you voted. I think you already had in mind what you were going to do with regard to that vote well before you typed it.

Particularly this part of your 152:

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

Then you also agree that Seniors is worth voting, and comment that beeboy seems genuine in your 288. It seems like you're looking very very hard for reasoning to lay a vote on Seniors. The vote comes in your next post 45 minutes later (along with your justifications which seem more irritated than anything else).

To wit:

Characterizing the

single

vote (also the single post) of SnarkytheSnowman during the very early stages as a "push" that felt "weird," in order to justify his own vote. That makes zero actual sense.

This is really stretching. Vote / Push - what's the difference and why does it matter?

You're going to get mad? If people keep pushing on you? Welcome to Mafia, I guess. Also, you might think that if someone you really thought was Town was pushing on you, you would be trying to, I don't know, convince them of the innocent error of their ways. As opposed to threatening them. Like that's going to be productive.

This is more irritated than a reason to scumread Seniors. Do you think a threat directed at beeboy who has already made it obvious he's familiar with Seniors, is going to make him back off? Nah.

The way he says he "dislikes" being discussed so much. It's like, you know who doesn't like being discussed? And defending on the basis that they hadn't done anything?

OOH OHH I know it's scum who doesn't like being discussed right?
Except it's not, in general. I can give you one star out of ten if you were thinking that maybe hiplop was hiding behind EP and felt the need to come in to post to appear that both heads were active, and then didn't really want to talk, but that's not what you're saying (and is a derivation of a derivation of a stretch anyway). Being discussed as scum opens up a whole bag of opportunities for townies to be wrong, for buddies to defend or bus, to be that rational scum. I have a lot of trouble swallowing that you believe what you're asserting here, and funnily I doubt that Seniors is going to come in as scum and say "hey guys we're off-limits fuck you oh and I'm town".

And finally the "look over there" vote. The rationale here is just bad. Seems to think you can't be suspicious of a player and also other people that player says are suspicious at the same time. Which you can, and it wouldn't be fencesitting even if you couldn't, it would be...something else. Inconsistent mindset maybe. And stirring the pot is not scummy in the first instance. Basically none of this makes any sense from a Town mindset. He's just lashing out.

I think Cakez' reads at the time were highly dubious given what had happened up till then:

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

And I don't think that your own defending of dubious reads is a good reason to scumread Seniors.

At the moment I feel you're the scummiest player I've looked at.

VOTE: Axelrod

[Ranger]

875 means I can

finally

stop orphaning my Cerb read.
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, Axelrod, dramonic}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Most of these are reads getting stronger, but True Ogre looks more town (still more likely to be scum than not, just less likely scum than before) and read atrophy is why Axelrod and dramonic have dropped a few pegs.

[Ranger]

Ugh I feel like I have too many townreads and someone is dogging me

This is one of the reasons dramonic and Axelrod have dropped in my reads.

Another being I hated Axel's reads when he did give them.

Speaking of which,
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana}
{SnarkySnowman}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic}
{Axelrod}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}
Now the orphaned read is SnarkySnowman. My stance on Cerb now applies to him; he could be anywhere above Axelrod that's below untouchable.

[Ranger]

EP why do you always sound fake to me it makes me sad

(Psst, it's because Errant actually is fake this game.)

[Ranger]

WAIT this means Cheet can join omg

I'm sorry, I'm not Cheetory. :(
You'll have to live with someone who's probably not quite that good but is still at least decent.

[Ranger]

Open 623
That game sucked >.<

I still owe you BIG time for that. <3

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

This is true, though I'd note it also applies to Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

[Ranger]

There were three scum replace outs in a Mini Theme I just finished and no town replace outs.

My mini normal also had three scum replace-outs and no town replace-outs, too. Incidentally, Mirhawk replaced in.

I have deliberately been avoiding comparing this game to that game because it's a whopping sample size of one, but for what it's worth, there are some strong elements of the same game Mirhawk had there in here.

[The Pied Piper]

The Pied Piper (Plotinus/nachomamma8) (both heads)

I don't mind being counted in this list because I have read enough of your games that I'm comfortable vouching that this is indeed your playstyle but I don't remember playing with you before. *looks* I spectated Game Shop, duckcakes, zakk's game, star trek...oh you were in elemental mafia! That's right. That was a long time ago, wow.

I don't think i could say anything intelligent about what

is

alignment indicative for you but asking questions, prodding people here and there without making strong pushes before you're ready is just you being you, and you have made some pushes this game: against Mirhawk and dramonic.

Plenty of inferences can be made from it, granted. I just have a preference for straightforward "Joe is scum because of X,Y,Z" type posts.

You may prefer this when you're reading but you don't prefer this when you're writing.

But this is where I think that you're at with this game right now, correct me if I'm wrong:

Your main scumreads are dramonic and mirhawk, in that order. You're getting suspicious of Axel or are in the process of trying to sort him right now. You were scumreading one of amihan/pistachi0n before the claim was retracted but haven't interacted with them since.

Your biggest townreads are me and True Ogre, maybe beeboy too but you've had that read for a long time and I'm not sure whether it's still existing or if it's gone stale. You're townleaning tictac too.

You were defending seniors early on (90, 92) but you backed down pretty quickly in response to pressure and haven't interacted with them since. I'm worried that this is a result of beeboy taking the stance that everyone who supported his tunnel was town and everyone who resisted it was scum because beeboy was making a lot of noise and you may have worried that beeboy's guns may be turned on you. You've been explicitly townreading beeboy since 463.

Everyone else is a morass of null for you but gun to your head you are more suspicious about this half of the players (S -> W): mirhawk, dramonic, Axel, spiffeh, skybird, cakez, podoboq, snarky, amihan, pistachi0n,
and more trusting of this half of the players (S -> W): True Ogre, Us, beeboy, tictac, The Wrong Lynch, seniors, cerb, tammy, sakura, ranger

Do you think Mirhawk and Dramonic are scum together, or are your reads on them independent? Is Dramonic bussing Axel?

You said that you have trouble reading Spiffeh, is this in both directions? Do you tend to townread him as scum and scumread him as town, or do you tend to scumread him as both alignments?

Which reads of yours did I get wrong?

pedit @Ranger: That is true of Mirhawk though slightly less true; there haven't been 11 people willing to vote Mirhawk at once yet. There is still time though!

[Ranger]

Caught up with the thread.

1309 is my final reads list.

Let's get to working.

[beeboy]

EP why do you always sound fake to me it makes me sad

(Psst, it's because Errant actually is fake this game.)

Then it is settled!
RIP Seniors!

[The Pied Piper]

Ranger, how confident are you in your ability to read newbies?

Semi unrelatedly*, why is Snarky so high, they are a minimalist like you but they are capable of doing more than literally nothing: in Miller's hollow, which I have virtually no recollection of because of how sick I was that game, but I do remember that they had a lot more impact on the thread even though we were getting 20+ pages per day in a mini (and wound up having a 90 page day one). I feel like they also had more presence in Machina than they've had here. Is your townlean on Snarky tied to your scumread on Seniors (and if so how much stock do you put into the "newbie scum tend to vote their buddies in RVS" tell?) or is it unrelated?

*snarky is still new enough but they aren't incompetent and this isn't their first large, or their second non newbie game or a completely unfamiliar playlist to them. As such, the question about newbies is more regarding the newer newbies in this game.

I'm okay with the rest of it for today; I don't agree fully but I think I can see how you got there well enough and I'm happy with your lynchpool.

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah, we should look at Ranger's slot, but it's awfully bold to intend to vote someone who hasn't posted at all.

Is bold a town thing or a scum thing? And why?

[Ranger]

Ranger, how confident are you in your ability to read newbies?

Case-by-case. In tictac's case, I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong, but I'm not expecting I am. For Axelrod, my read's shifted a ton so obviously the answer there is I don't have a solid grip. But if any other player could be called new, then I'm not wrong on them.

Semi unrelatedly, why is Snarky so high, they are a minimalist like you but they are capable of doing more than literally nothing

Orphaned read: I don't really have any definitive place for SnarkySnowman, and am hoping to see more of him. I liked his early posting, which got him that high in the first place, and his posting since then hasn't made me think "could be scum", I just don't have anything right now that gives me an idea of where he'd be on the town scale, he's just somewhere in there.

[True Ogre]

Axel doesn't look new to me with a 2005 join date.

Also I got lazy and will be back tomorrow.

Ranger your reads need to show more nuance.

[True Ogre]

And by nuanced I mean your top tier is entirely alien to me.

The closest on a superficial inspection I have to alignment parity with you is perhaps the TWL read who I am really really unsure of right now.

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

[The Pied Piper]

podoboq is brand new to mafia without offsite experience and with 1 completed newbie game and 1 completed game of one night ultimate werewolf (in which he was scum). He doesn't know anybody yet.

Your predecessor was either newnew or was an alt playing the newbie card in their previous games that I looked at but I was leaning actually new on them.

Tictac doesn't have any completed scumgames and only has 3 completed games on this site (2 newbies, 1 mini) and were town in those games. This is their first large and an unfamiliar playlist for them.

pistachi0n isn't newnew but she doesn't play a lot either. She does have some completed scumgames. I wouldn't call her a newbie but this is her first large game and a lot of unfamiliar players for her.

Amihan doesn't have many completed games but clearly has offsite experience of some kind, but I'm leaning new-to-MS not alt. Most of the playerlist is new to her and this is her first large.

True Ogre is alt, not new.

Axelrod is not new. He has a 2005 joindate but doesn't seem to play very often; he may be used to an older site meta. He probably doesn't recognise most of the players. The last time he played a large was in 2012 and it was over in less than 90 pages.


I don't think anybody else meets any definition of new (new to mafia, never been scum before, new to ms, new to larges, new to this playerlist.)

Players in their first large may be having trouble keeping up with the number of pages or keeping track of this many players. Players new in any sense of the word may have trouble following arguments based on meta. + some other considerations.

[Rob14]

bump