A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[tictac]

This is kind of weird. Could be an attempt to engage (alhtough he's not addresing Spiffeh directly)

Thought the ping was notable cause Spif was otherwise so town. I don't necessarily have deeper reasons for everything I write.

[SirCakez]

It did read like a slight townread to me, yes. You made comments about stuff people were scumreading me for being not-AI so I assumed that meant you were on the other side of the bridge.
If I did comment on the Pist read earlier then I blanked on it which is a mistake but forgetting things is not indicative of scum. A really notable example of this is Dwlee forgetting about fake-dayvig gambits in Borderlands and getting mislynched for it.

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

Ya didn't answer, nor did ya comment on the defense very much at all. 2672 is the only thing I can find.
Why are ya focusing on self-defense instead on me?

I have no idea what happened with the 1603. Went and checked and I meant 1646.

Still hammering away at Nacho thing

[tictac]

it's not the scum number that I'm worried about, but the openly fishing of the SK/vig thing that's bothering me

Pretty sure beeboy-slot is town.

[tictac]

You made comments about stuff people were scumreading me for being not-AI so I assumed that meant you were on the other side of the bridge.

I'm against pushing on non-AI things in generality
.
It's the same thing as with early Seniors.
Bad logic is bad regardless of the target.

[Marquis]

In the meantime, I'll put my vote somewhere I know it belongs. VOTE: dramonic. I get that he's a better vig target, but he's the only person I consider obvscum right now, so that's where I'm gonna park while I finish up some projects over the next two days.

Multiple people have repeatedly talked about and referenced games where dramonic does this as town as well. While I could expect a vote for uselessness, it concerns me that you seem to ignore those points and continue on with just calling him obvscum.

I know your play and I know you're not a shallow thinker. So what's up here?

[SirCakez]

Although you don't really need to respond to all of that, the parts that are particularly important to me involve your opening to the day (what happened to Ranger lynch bringing a bunch of information and why did you follow Spiffeh in the way that you did), what your Skybird vote was about because it sucked, and what your response to the pistachi0n wagon was about. You said you missed the claim investigative result and that's good and well but I don't understand why you didn't say anything about the pistachi0n wagon while it was happening if you thought it was such a piece of shit wagon.

-Ranger info

Spoiler:

Vote Count #1.27 (FINAL):

Ranger:

davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Friendless Seniors:

Skybird, Ranger, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n (6)

SirCakez:

Tammy, True Ogre (2)

Mirhawk:

Cerberus v666 (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

Final Ranger wagon looked like this
Ranger's townflip would obviously mean we need to be searching for scum on the wagon but also who was avoiding joining a wagon at all at deadline.
I actually think Ranger's wagon was very towndriven now that we know Spiffeh was town and Seniors is probably town but there are some shifty votes on here.
-I went over Mirhawk's terrible vote pattern close to deadline in my case on him, that still applies. He was following wagons around constantly. His main justification for Ranger!scum

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

is very weak especially now that we know she was town. Reads matching the wagons and not justifying all her reads is a p crappy scumread.

-I also don't like how TWL approached the wagon. Very little attempt to get anything done at deadline and then

Part of me wants to just say fuck it and lynch ranger. Mainly because *nothing bad* will happen either way.

IDK

It's just because I know I'm not going to be around in another 1/2 hr

:\

when they never tried to wagon anywhere else in the first place.

-I've already gone over Tictac disappearing at deadline but that wasn't good either for obvious reasons.

-Finally, Cerb sitting on a never-going-to-happen Mirhawk wagon at deadline feels terrible. Especially now that he's basically done nothing for all of today.

-Spiffeh
I have a pretty high view of Spiffeh's town game and he's been obvtown all this game like he usually is, so I put faith in him and also wanted to avoid a nolynch. Seniors was the alternative and their reachout to me when I cased them + the Fruit Vendor claim felt very town so I didn't want to do that. I tried to get Mirhawk and Tictac going but it didn't go through so I was left with Ranger.

-Skybird

Spoiler:

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't. As well upon review, Skybird didn't even mention the Investigative result when voting Pist, only said

Cakez, why do you think Pist's miller claim is more town based?

I too would like to get this sorted before the game goes much further.
VOTE: Pistachion

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.
And then

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

That's straight up backtracking.

-Pist wagon
I'm gonna be completely honest here and admit I wasn't paying attention to the game at all that day. That's why I missed Ogre claiming an Investigative result and why I immediately assumed it was a random scum-driven wagon the next morning.

[podoboq]

In the meantime, I'll put my vote somewhere I know it belongs. VOTE: dramonic. I get that he's a better vig target, but he's the only person I consider obvscum right now, so that's where I'm gonna park while I finish up some projects over the next two days.

Multiple people have repeatedly talked about and referenced games where dramonic does this as town as well. While I could expect a vote for uselessness, it concerns me that you seem to ignore those points and continue on with just calling him obvscum.

I know your play and I know you're not a shallow thinker. So what's up here?

Cakez is the only person I can remember making that argument, that dramonic plays this way as town. He linked to a game as an example, and I found that the play was different. In the linked game, dramonic was similarly inactive, but when he participated, he actually

added

something to the dialog. Instead, he has repeated his three scumreads, which I think are terrible scumreads. He's just scumreading the people who are attacking his play.

You have played with me before, and I assume you can recall my push on pignash. I scumread unapologetic inactivity very highly. And in that example, I know pignash in real life, and know he had a one-year-old kid he was busy with. I still expected him to find time to participate. At the least, you should be able to

add

something when you do participate. I was wrong about pignash, granted, but he was still a liability, and I think that game would have been incredibly easy to lose if he wasn't lynched.

[podoboq]

His responses in general feel super off. He sounds a lot more like he wants to be agreeable than actually trying to get something done.

That's a hell of a lot more than we've gotten out of him this game, and it happened within the first week. We've waited a week here and the best we got is this:

dram tbf you aren't really doing much

At least

I'm

voting scum

Whether or not dram is normally like this, it's not OK. I haven't posted much, but when I do, I at least try to offer something. I'm giving people an opportunity to read me, and I'm putting ideas on the table with reasons. What's dram actually offering to this game? If he's scum, are we just going to continue to not lynch him because of the fact that we know he plays like scum as town?

[SirCakez]

Dramonic is a bad lynch in general because we get very very little info from his flip and he's a ridiculously easy mislynch if he's town and easy bus if he's scum. A Vig there is probably the best way to deal with him. I still think he's town here but I'm struggling to convince everyone else and something needs to be done about him.

[itlepip]

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

[itlepip]

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

[podoboq]

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion, and I'm legitimately confused as to how you can't see my logic.

1) I think that dram's play is unreadable by its very nature. I think that's a liability for town.
2) I think that dram's play and lack of contribution is scummy, and leads him to be an incredibly easy lynch in the late game. I think that's a liability for town if dram is town, and we should cut our losses early in that case.
3) I also think dram is obvscum based on his bad scumreads, providing no reasoning as to why they're scumreads, and not cooperating with town in any meaningful way.

Right now, any of those three reasons alone is more than enough to make me feel comfortable with dram's lynch. While dram is a better vig hit, I don't feel comfortable right now parking on anybody else, because I don't feel comfortable with the lynch of any other players without further review, which I can't get done at the moment. So if somebody gets lynched while I'm getting work done, I'd much rather it be dram than anybody else, because dram at least

needs

to be removed from this game for the benefit of town.

I understand if you disagree with any of that logic, fine. But I believe you can see where I'm coming from here, and if you scumread me for it, I'm honestly confused as to how you're drawing that conclusion.

[podoboq]

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

With the exception of pistach, beeboy's slot was my highest townread, and this is making me really uncomfortable with how I've viewed that slot basically all game. Suggesting that a slot as problematic as dramonic's shouldn't be vigged, and that axel and tictac who have contributed to the discussion and helped actually shape reads and decisions should be killed instead, is I think irresponsible.

Like maybe I get shooting me, because I'm kind of a newb, and I'm not posting a lot recently anyway, so I'm a liability in my own way, but axel and tictac should not be on that list.

[SirCakez]

Tictac has not significantly contributed to discussion or shaping reads. That's an odd assertion to make.
Axel has some what but I have different problems with him.

[podoboq]

Tictac has not significantly contributed to discussion or shaping reads. That's an odd assertion to make.
Axel has some what but I have different problems with him.

Tictac has a hell of a lot more contribution than dramonic, and a bit more than me, especially over the course of this day. Him being a scumread doesn't change that.

[itlepip]

You shoot people who are scum, not people you can't read.

[SirCakez]

Most of his content today feels like refuting my push on him and not scumhunting. Defense is fine but he's not doing much else.

[podoboq]

You shoot people who are scum, not people you can't read.

In my experience, you shoot people who are liabilities. Obvscum are liabilities. In the case that there is no obvscum, you should consider vigging people who are liabilities for other reasons. If there's a high chance of shooting town, then I'd rather shoot the player who is an easy mislynch later than somebody I have slightly more reason to scumread.

[SirCakez]

You shoot people who are impossible to sort and could fuck over town later on. Snarky is a prime example of this.

[podoboq]

You shoot people who are impossible to sort and could fuck over town later on. Snarky is a prime example of this.

Especially considering his naked hammer of town. Even if you were townreading snarky, that's the kind of slot you HAVE to vig. It's just too dangerous.

[podoboq]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

*cricket*

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

itlepip, could you explain how Axel has gone from having good posts and you asking dramonic for a case, to being completely ignored by dramonic who refuses to make that case, to considering dramonic obvtown and scumreading Axel?

[itlepip]

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

podo is probably also scum.

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

:P

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

[itlepip]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

:neutral:

*cricket*

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

itlepip, could you explain how Axel has gone from having good posts and you asking dramonic for a case, to being completely ignored by dramonic who refuses to make that case, to considering dramonic obvtown and scumreading Axel?

Read my readlist, I think Axel could easily be scum here but since he has some good post I don't want to kill him yet unless he is more scummy than I realized, hence why I wanted the case before I voted.

[podoboq]

These are the posts you're using to read dramonic as town. They all have something in common. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

podo is probably also scum.

The only thing this accomplishes is calling me scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

Almost the only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason. There is another nugget, but I'll go ahead and pull it out to look at at the end of this wall.

Spoiler:

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Scum does NOT want to kill mislynches now. They want to save them for the end of the game. That's why they are a town liability, because at MYLO, the scum team WANTS an easy mislynch to remain alive. So the argument that your slot and Cakez's are easy mislynches, and scum!dram wouldn't keep you around in that case is completely empty. I'd also like to remind you that scum!dram WOULD pull out issues with two easy mislynches, without actually pushing them, so at the end of the game, when you are still alive, he can argue that he saw the scummy play early, and more easily argue in favor of your mislynch.

His reads aren't solid. I know I'm town, I don't scumread Axel right now, and I'm no longer convinced about tictac. I can see either of them flipping scum at some point, but their alignment is not obvious, and picking the three players he did as early as he did and not wavering is incredibly scummy. It's without logic, and it's proven without logic, BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO PROVIDE LOGIC DESPITE BEING ASKED TO ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, INCLUDING

FROM YOU

.

The only thing you quoted from him that isn't just throwing shit at his three supposed scumreads is this:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown? Literally everything you quoted is something that I see as indicative of scum, and you're reading it as town. Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

[itlepip]

These are the posts you're using to read dramonic as town. They all have something in common. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel scum without providing any reason.

Guess what, just because someone doesn't provide reasoning doesn't automatically make something NAI. Looking at what the read is and the timing of it can also give you a read. I understand if you can't read it, but when someone comes along in a generally townread slot and says, yo, this easily could be town, I'm not sure why town would doubtcast that.

Spoiler:

podo is probably also scum.

The only thing this accomplishes is calling me scum without providing any reason.

Same thing but worse because its you.

Spoiler:

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

And it lets me get an inkling of a read on him.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

Almost the only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason. There is another nugget, but I'll go ahead and pull it out to look at at the end of this wall.

Spoiler:

:P

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Scum does NOT want to kill mislynches now. They want to save them for the end of the game. That's why they are a town liability, because at MYLO, the scum team WANTS an easy mislynch to remain alive. So the argument that your slot and Cakez's are easy mislynches, and scum!dram wouldn't keep you around in that case is completely empty. I'd also like to remind you that scum!dram WOULD pull out issues with two easy mislynches, without actually pushing them, so at the end of the game, when you are still alive, he can argue that he saw the scummy play early, and more easily argue in favor of your mislynch.

Okay, that's just not how the game works. Depending on the size of the game, scum need to achieve a certain amount of mislynches to win, with certain roles such as vig and medic affecting that number. What needs to happen for town is to get a few extra scum flips early so that if we do end up in lylo its at worst a 5p and not the awful 7p which 999/1000 times scum just win. Even if you think Dram is 100% unreadable here, unless you have nobody in the game who you think has greater than a rounabouts 4/20 something chance of being scum Dram shouldn't be killed right now. All you are doing right now is again 16/20 times just lowering the necessary mislynch counter by 1 while providing town with nothing to go off of. You are either super lazy town that doesn't want to try to solve the game or just scum.

His reads aren't solid. I know I'm town, I don't scumread Axel right now, and I'm no longer convinced about tictac. I can see either of them flipping scum at some point, but their alignment is not obvious, and picking the three players he did as early as he did and not wavering is incredibly scummy. It's without logic, and it's proven without logic, BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO PROVIDE LOGIC DESPITE BEING ASKED TO ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, INCLUDING

FROM YOU

.

His reads are solid in that I can verify that they are coming from a town standpoint and this feels like townplay to me. I think that you are fairly likely to be scum here, but even if you are town here the thought process from Dram is still towny. Town never have 100% reads, you can't try to read people based on the accuracy of their reads, but in whether or not the reads came from town or scum.

The only thing you quoted from him that isn't just throwing shit at his three supposed scumreads is this:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown? Literally everything you quoted is something that I see as indicative of scum, and you're reading it as town. Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

I explained that one. Basically that is a spot where scum would probably have an agenda is prodding Beeboy and I super don't see any signs of an agenda.