A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Mirhawk]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one people want to scumread him for voting for Tictac who he totally did actually say he was going to vote for today at the end of day one.

[davesaz]

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:

My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.

I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.

I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.

p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know.

For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh.

I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.

Why do you feel some people are associated together?

Noting by way of Plotinus' compilation post that Skybird's readslist-esque posts oddly associate Spiffeh and Tammy prior to their death whereas the other positions are spread out. Probably doesn't mean anything on a large scale but if Skybird flips scum it's notable that scum probably noticed the lovers' associations early on.

I think this is pretty reachy. Listing her two top town reads together isn't unusual at all, pretty much everyone does that.

Pedit: I have seen it done both ways, where lovers know and where they don't know. But I agree it's likely the didn't know. I looked post flip and did not see any signs in their posting.

Pedit2 @ Mirhawk -- you're doing some confusing posting there. Some of the posts you are answering are about your read on me, and you're interspersing with comments on your reads on Cakez -- without saying who "he" is.

[Dwlee99]

I think Mirhawk's recent line of questioning on Cakez is completely hollow.

What do ya think of my line?

Forgot Podo said this.

I'm going to admit I'm super convinced Cakez is scum and I'm pushing him more or less on everything I can.

Some of it is kind of stupid.

nonono you dont understand. Cakez is being genuine. He oozes it.

[The Pied Piper]

@Marquis: interesting. I looked for crumbs after the flips, but it's not really the kind of role that you crumb. There are three mentions of the word love in Tammy's ISO and zero in Spiffeh's, and none of them felt like a crumb (except the one where she crumbed her flavour to nacho.)

I think the core of my case is solid, but apparently nobody gives a shit about that.

I think he's scum too, we're just more interested in Skybird right now. I've been working on updating my ISO map of him when I have time, but it's slower going because his ISO is much longer (he posted about 120 posts since the bulletpoint format case i had in the hydra PT)

[SirCakez]

(snip) Unspoilering for readibility.

-Skybird

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't.

So Skybird should immediately have new reads or avoid unvoting a

conftown

if she's town. That is backwards. Re-thinking things takes more time than making things up.

As well upon review, Skybird didn't even mention the Investigative result when voting Pist,

And why should she? It's not like Ogres result on pist was easy to miss. Do you think Sky was unaware of Ogres post?

only said

Cakez, why do you think Pist's miller claim is more town based?

I too would like to get this sorted before the game goes much further.
VOTE: Pistachion

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.

True, yet I see townies doing this all the time. I seem to remember you doing it in the Mini even.

And then

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

That's straight up backtracking.

How is that backtracking?
While it's possible that you didn't see Ogres claim the first time around,I don't believe that you didn't see the mod-announce.
Sky wanted to sort pist, pist was sorted and Sky unvoted. Where is the backtracking?

I'll add that not seeing Ogres post would be scummy in itself, cause it means you didn't pay attention to context. To me that speaks of pattern-matchy mindset of someone who is looking for things to push instead of looking for scum.

-The unvote is fine, I didn't like how she didn't say anything else. I wasn't the only one with a problem with this.
-The rest of this (backtracking stuff) was because of a misinterpretation on my part. I thought Skybird said she was trying to sort Pist then changed her reason to following Ogre's result, but I got mixed up.

[Dwlee99]

why are we looking for crumbs from the lovers who already flipped?

[SirCakez]

Most of his content today feels like refuting my push on him and not scumhunting. Defense is fine but he's not doing much else.

Wtf? Did ya miss that I'm pushing you?
Also, have too been scumhunting.

Your "push" on me is all shooting down my points on you.
Where have you been scumhunting elsewhere?

[Marquis]

Noting by way of Plotinus' compilation post that Skybird's readslist-esque posts oddly associate Spiffeh and Tammy prior to their death whereas the other positions are spread out. Probably doesn't mean anything on a large scale but if Skybird flips scum it's notable that scum probably noticed the lovers' associations early on.

I've never played with lovers before, but I was under the impression that they didn't know who each other were.

Lovers informed of each others' identities is common, but a joint ISO confirms it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Hi!

VOTE: The Pied Piper

Nacho you'd love my musical!

Hey Tammers

I hope you're town this game

like me

prod-dodge.

sorry. I'm right in the middle of something right now. I'm going to try to read some of this tonight, but I might not be able to until tomorrow.

I did read the first page the other night though and don't worry spiffeh a town-Tammy is here, also nacho you wound me by doubting the musical reference.

Also Skybird is not lynchbait when wagons repeatedly refuse to form on her despite people often putting her as a "backburner" scumread. That's attention-deprived scum.

pedit - Plot, lovers don't

want

to crumb, that's counter-intuitive. But it's instinctive to want to at least address it in some very subtle fashion.

[SirCakez]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one

This is crap and you know it is.
Voteparking isn't a scum tell.
I 100% scumhunted day 1, your "he didn't scumhunt" accusation is balls.

Like how both people attacking me now are people I've pushed wagons on earlier/currently.

[Mirhawk]

@Dav
Oops, yeah I don't like quoting too much so it gets garbled sometimes.

3108 and 3117 are about you. The rest are about either seniors or cakez.

[tictac]

They were literally 4 posts in a row. Out of those 4 posts, it was every post.
Duh.

^This.

[The Pied Piper]

why are we looking for crumbs from the lovers who already flipped?

At the start of the day phase, I looked through both Tammy and Spiffeh's ISOs to see if there was anyway a scumteam who wanted to kill Tammy could have known they could shoot at Spiffeh instead to make it look like it was Spiffeh who was the threat to them with really it was Tammy. That would screw up night kill analysis, if so. If they had blatantly crumbed their roles or had weird interactions with each other, that could have tipped them off. But Tammy and Spiffeh didn't interact all that much and neither of them posted anything that looked like crumbs to me. She mentioned him about ten times in her ISO (ignoring quotes where other people mentioned him), and he mentioned her only 17 times in 239 posts.

Does that make sense?

pedit: ugh i missed that. Marquis wins at crumbhunting. my ego wants me to point out that i caught bella's fake jailkeeper crumbs in post 270 in The Odds back in December.

[Dwlee99]

unless we're doing nka i feel like this is pointless

[Marquis]

This is all in hindsight and I didn't pick up on it the first time. But my point earlier was that it's possible a scum player did and shared it with the team - Skybird's posts disproportionately associated Tammy and Spiffeh together way before Day 1 ended.

It's fairly pointless now, but if Skybird flips scum it's indicative that other scum players may have been subconsciously letting their knowledge of those Lovers slip through as well.

[davesaz]

Re: 3134 yeah, I figured it out but it's easier when you're one of the people being referred to.

Re: 3135 that's old news, but yeah

[tictac]

Tictac, Mirhawk and Wrong Lynch/Mala

OMG Why are you not pushing me then?
Why so little commentary on my defense?

[Mirhawk]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one

This is crap and you know it is.
Voteparking isn't a scum tell.
I 100% scumhunted day 1, your "he didn't scumhunt" accusation is balls.

You made 115 posts before you even tried to justify you vote on me as anything more than "Mirhawk's reaction is bad".

I was your top scumread that entire time and you did NOTHING to anyalyze my posts, convince others I was scum, or further your wagon in any way.

What scumread were you furthering during that time?

Like how both people attacking me now are people I've pushed wagons on earlier/currently.

I let you get away with saying this the first time but this is bullshit, and it's not true. This only applies to me and Tictac, you aren't counting Skybird, or Pistachion, or Piper.

[The Pied Piper]

unless we're doing nka i feel like this is pointless

A few people did nightkill analysis and some of them thought that [axel, mala, tictac] might be scum because of Spiffeh's reads, but we have a reason to believe that tictac is town.

Actually, looking back through the end of Tammy's ISO it seems she shared quite a few reads with Spiffeh so they might've had a neighbourhood.

pedit: It's a good thought, Marquis. I'll keep an eye out for similar patterns.

[davesaz]

Also Skybird is not lynchbait when wagons repeatedly refuse to form on her despite people often putting her as a "backburner" scumread. That's attention-deprived scum.

If that were the only reason her wagon won't take off, you might have a point. Some people have a town read on her.
On the flip side, I've felt the same way about the Cakez wagon.

[Mirhawk]

@Marquis
S'cool, I didn't notice that.

Not sure if the other scumplayers would know or not. If they had dayspeak maybe, but if they didn't it could only come out in conversation today and Spiffah and Tammy were both barely discussed. Tammy in particular.

That is assuming of course that only one scum noticed.

[Marquis]

The difference is there's been constant discussion and often votes on Cakez today and towards the end of yesterday. Whereas with Skybird votes hop on every once in a while then soon disperse to shiny new wagons, and discussion of Skybird is limited to when I or others push it. Nobody really holds her accountable.

[davesaz]

On the NKA front, I think Skybird's strong townread on Spiffeh favors her being framed by the NK rather than being on the scum team. Isn't scum 101 to kill someone other town are townreading?

[Mirhawk]

I was your top scumread that entire time and you did NOTHING to anyalyze my posts, convince others I was scum, or further your wagon in any way.

Well, this is perhaps not TOTALLY accurate. You did ask me a couple rather useless questions, and made statements to the effect of "mirhawks scum" a couple times.

[SirCakez]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one

This is crap and you know it is.
Voteparking isn't a scum tell.
I 100% scumhunted day 1, your "he didn't scumhunt" accusation is balls.

You made 115 posts before you even tried to justify you vote on me as anything more than "Mirhawk's reaction is bad".

I was your top scumread that entire time and you did NOTHING to anyalyze my posts, convince others I was scum, or further your wagon in any way.

What scumread were you furthering during that time?

Like how both people attacking me now are people I've pushed wagons on earlier/currently.

I let you get away with saying this the first time but this is bullshit, and it's not true. This only applies to me and Tictac, you aren't counting Skybird, or Pistachion, or Piper.

So you're saying
Every single person who has a high scumread on someone needs to go indepth on their scumread on them, keep pushing the wagon forward and continuously analyze your posts? That's terrible, not every read is going to get a ton of justification.
I've never pushed wagons on Pist (except for the Miller CC, but that wasn't a scumread for anything else) or Piper, and Skybird isn't attacking me right now.

[SirCakez]

Tictac I'll get to your defense in a bit, I forgot about it.