A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Dwlee99]

goodnight e'rybody

[itlepip]

Holy fuck Dwlee you haven't read the fucking game and you are lecturing me on whether what Mirhawk was opportunistic. Read at least his iso and come back and tell me that you think he actually believes any of his deadline pushes. Especially given the context of his play today.

Also FS I will bully whoever to push this lynch through right now. Dwlee hasn't read the game so its not like his opinion matters at all, but his vote does.

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

Explain why Mir actually town instead of trying to discredit these attacks and then saying 'lol I'm buddying Sky'

[Cerberus v666]

Also, I really wish someone who I wasn't already townreading had been the one to point out that my play isn't up to par for me. Minimal value gained. I guess cakez said it too, but like, his only completed game with me I was scum, and uncharacteristically inactive, so he isn't quite as versed in what normal me is.

Pedit: dude. Not on TPP. First, I'm biased, literally half the reason I joined this game is cause plot wowed the fuck out of me in my first game on site, back when they were like, completely new, and I really wanted to play another game with them, so I can't objectively evaluate since I want them to stick around longer. And second...cause it's a fucking pain. That iso man. I haven't been isoing anyone yet this game and there is NO chance I'm starting with them.

I've already expressed my limited thoughts on them somewhere. I see nothing scummy about them at all. Every fucking thing they say is on point. They're both extremely good players though, so that's all NAI. I see people calling them scummy but only giving out these handwavey reasons why they're scummy. The scummiest thing they've done is keep trying to engage with me, and I keep not responding, and they don't ratchet up the pressure. That is either them being scum just looking busy ( cause plot was the person whoever first said the phrase "Effort is not indicative of alignment" had in mind), or I'm sincerely not a priority for sorting. Considering my low impact this game, I could buy that argument too.

So like, yeah. By play, it's like 90%+ town from my perspective. And I actually DO read their walls.

[itlepip]

Your failing at actually finding something substantive to push that slot is pretty telling. Null-town for me right now.

Also given that Mirhawk pulled the BS fruitvendors mean that FS is confirmed BS and FS is pulling this BS with Mir right now if nothing else make sure one of them flips soon this game cause that could just solve the game. Mir is actually just scum though, FS is incredibly wrong with their reads. Their lynch pool coming into today is literally all town with the possible exception of TPP but TPP is probably town as well. Either FS is playing their worst game ever with both heads or they are just scum this game.

Pedit: yeah kinda what cerb said though I think that cerb is just town this game and I'm pretty sure TPP if town could easily pick up on that.

[Friendless Seniors]

Itlepip, describe the cases on those two slots and why they are "weak AF"

[Friendless Seniors]

Sigh. They're gonna win this game aren't they

I wish chamber was in this game

[Cerberus v666]

Sigh. They're gonna win this game aren't they

I wish chamber was in this game

Naw man, don't worry, I'll kick into high gear soon and catch them all unawares!

I mean, I already know like 4 people are definitely town, so that's a step in the right direction.

[itlepip]

The skybird one I just don't think outweighs the view posts where I got a gut towny vibe from him. Like I feel that half the player base has been coasting which is 100% of the case on skybird. Town skybird isn't a super town machine.

TPP is just burden of proficiency which given that we haven't seen any flips yet is a crock of BS. The case against them is just that they are good players and since the game isn't just magically over yet we lynch them because that makes so much sense.

I don't think you are town here so i'm not too keen on keeping up this conversation unless someone towny joins so I can yell at them to vote mir.

[Cerberus v666]

The skybird one I just don't think outweighs the view posts where I got a gut towny vibe from him. Like I feel that half the player base has been coasting which is 100% of the case on skybird. Town skybird isn't a super town machine.

TPP is just burden of proficiency which given that we haven't seen any flips yet is a crock of BS. The case against them is just that they are good players and since the game isn't just magically over yet we lynch them because that makes so much sense.

I don't think you are town here so i'm not too keen on keeping up this conversation unless someone towny joins so I can yell at them to vote mir.

FS is town. Go iso me+them, starting from VC 1.25 or so I think. The back and forth between us, their reactions, it's purely town. Try to find scum motivation in the way they handled that.

[The Pied Piper]

I am currently both Plotinus and Nacho; come talk to me. I remember in the future that hiplop says something like he didn't like Plot's clumsy wagon handling but that doesn't exactly seem like a scum tell to me (and especially not like a Plotinus-specific one); did you have a different reason for being uncomfortable with Plot? What did you think of their reads?

It is. they are playing very akin to butterfly mafia. And I expect yall to be going after someone...better than skybird? who is like consistently mislynched in games? It seems very planned, which is the defining quality of plotscum. Someone else said this is nachscum sooo.... their ways of interacting with me just seem way off!

other one is for ep, idk

What do you think of Marquis case on Skybird? Skybird is capable of doing more than she's doing. I don't think there's anything unusual about being underwhelmed by someone that you know is capable of doing more than this. I haven't played with her before, but Nacho played with her in a couple games (Smite, Twilight Zone). Did you look at the game that Marquis linked? What did you think of it?


Butterfly was an unusual game for me. It took me several months to recover from it and I very nearly siteflaked because of some things that happened in it. I was V/LA for most of the game because of IRL stuff and I was distracted. It's not a very good game to meta me based on because I was barely there, unless "barely here and distrated by IRL stuff" is part of your case?

The town game that I played with you back in January/February was also unusual it that it's been a couple months and I am still recovering from what happened in it. I was having trouble with blitz deadlines and with health problems and the game was moving too fast for me to play the way I normally do. As such, you are seeing my normal town playstyle for the first time.

Butterfly was easily my second worst scumgame and the blitz was one of my worst towngames. It feels weird for you to be judging me based on those games that I was barely present for and then in 3264 calling me spectacular. It doesn't make sense to me. I wasn't spectacular in either of those games.

I also feel like I'm in a damned if I do damned if I don't situation with you because on the one hand you're calling us clumsy and saying we're acting like newbies and making dumb mistakes but on the other hand you're accusing of me being super calculating and clever and planning things out to an insane degree. You can't have it both ways. If I'm playing a superplanny game then you're not going to catch me on level 0 stuff and if I'm so new at this that if I get a scum role pm then I just have no idea how to pretend scumhunt, then how would I be able to do calculating and advanced moves?


Also, and self meta etc, but I don't tend to go after low hanging fruit as scum. You would know this if you were paying attention in the blitz because the topic came up there when I was going after KTthecreeper, who was actually scum in that game. In Hitchcock, I replaced into an unwinnable situation and immediately started trying to lynch Nacho. In Handwriting, I spent two weeks in 3p trying to get Nacho to lynch the most obvtown newbie you'd ever seen (and Nacho is good at reading newbies), before the newbie gave up and voted Nacho. In Clowntardis, I lynched people that I thought were playing the townest town games I'd ever seen. In History, I tried to lynch Metal Sonic the mason for a while before he got banned; after he was banned we were drowning in mislynches and there were no hard targets to go after.

As scum, my goal is to get rid of as many threats as possible, as quickly as possible, and I use both my nightkill and the daily lynch to accomplish that. As scum, a player who is drifting along the way Skybird is? Not a threat. As town, a scumplayer who is coasting along like Skybird is? A threat, and I'm lynching this one. I have other scumreads that I will lynch after I'm through with this one. I'm worried about the thread dynamics and the way people are resisting this wagon but every game there is one town aligned player who insists on tying themselves to the scumteam via their bad reads (itlepip was that person in The Odds), and this game I think it might be you. We'll see if I still think that when the dust settles.

pedit: Skybird forgetting things has very little to do with my case on her. Reducing our case to that is ridiculous. I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

Beetlejuice? Seriously? It's morning, I just woke up, I checked my games, I haven't even had coffee yet. (btw if anyone wants to replace into a newbie game, please PM Plotinus; I need 3 people )

Cerb, I do want to interact with you and talk to you about stuff I just haven't made the time for it. I was surprised to see you had 133 posts when I looked at the activity overview yesterday. It feels like you have less than that. You're in the "I could be interested in seeing how a wagon on them would progress and I might join one if one were started" section of my readslist at the moment but you just haven't been a priority. I'm sorry, though, you were one of the people I was looking forward to playing with too and then IRL happened but I'm starting to feel like myself again.

pedit: thank you itlepip.

[itlepip]

Why no Mir vote?

[Cerberus v666]

TPP: they're reducing the Mirhawk push to him forgetting things. That's unrelated to you.

And yeah, I umm, was closer to normal when I first replaced in, posting at my standard intensity, then I dialed it back when other games happened and haven't pushed this to the top of the queue at any point so far.

I'm also quite interested in how a wagon on me would progress. Give it time, someone will try.

[The Pied Piper]

Mirhawk is in the "I would not try to derail their wagon if they were being lynched¹" section of my readslist, and I think Nacho thought some of their posts seemed town a while back. I need to make coffee and breakfast and then I'll look through your Mirhawk case in more detail.

pedit @Cerb:

I understood 3268 to be a response to 3265, but it's possible I misunderstood:

Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

Skybird.

I had thought this was your only ongoing game that you're alive in but I remember now that you're in another two. I feel you; I'm alive in two as well and it seems my limit is closer to one.


[1] I think I will keep this naming scheme in the future, too. I have thought up all sorts of clever names for tiers, some of which don't even have people in them.

[The Pied Piper]

*another game, too

gah.

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk is in the "I would not try to derail their wagon if they were being lynched¹" section of my readslist, and I think Nacho thought some of their posts seemed town a while back. I need to make coffee and breakfast and then I'll look through your Mirhawk case in more detail.

pedit @Cerb:

I understood 3268 to be a response to 3265, but it's possible I misunderstood:

Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

Skybird.

I had thought this was your only ongoing game that you're alive in but I remember now that you're in another two. I feel you; I'm alive in two as well and it seems my limit is closer to one.


[1] I think I will keep this naming scheme in the future, too. I have thought up all sorts of clever names for tiers, some of which don't even have people in them.

Hmm. Yeah, point taken. I'm. Little confused there then. Both before and after that there was a lot of conversation about pushing Mirhawk based on some inconsistency in his pushes, as outlined by itlepip in 3250 I believe, so I thought you had put some pressure on Mirhawk at some point and that's what FS was referring to. I don't know anything about the Skybird thing. I guess I might as well reiterate what everyone else is saying: Skybird is Skybird, the behaviors you dislike from her haven't been indicative of her scum play in my limited experience with her, but she certainly is scummy and I wouldn't object to her lynch, except for the fact that I'm more suspicious of Mirhawk.

One game is my effective max, unless I get a nice flow of when day/night cycles happen so I can alternate focusing. :/

[The Pied Piper]

It's possible there was more than one conversation going on at the time, yeah, and i just got confused.

I know we were pushing Mirhawk some early day 1, around the time of the miller thing. I don't think we've pushed them since then. We've probably interacted with them and asked them stuff but they haven't been our primary focus for a while now. I feel like the miller point has been talked to death by now, but I think there was more (I skimmed when I woke up and I didn't take all that much in but I am armed with coffee and a banana now!)

(Is that a banana in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? Actually, it's a banana!)

I always want to sync up my games so that I'm never deadline scrambling in more than one at a time but instead what happens is I'll be in 4 games and they all go into night phase at once and suddenly there's nothing to do. I think my limit is actually two, it's just that a large counts as 2-3 games all by itself.

[True Ogre]

Also FS I will bully whoever to push this lynch through right now. Dwlee hasn't read the game so its not like his opinion matters at all, but his vote does.

I don't mind being bullied at times on things that matter to the bully. Think of me as Grodon Ramsay's appreciative Stockholm student.
So, bully me on Mirhawk...

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

...Because I believe I've already outlined the issues I have with Piper - even if I've been too otherwise preoccupied and kind of lazy to follow up on them.

And I'll note that even though their push yesterday close to deadline was

Mirhawk > Seniors > Ranger > Seniors

- with inadequate reason,
today's is

Cakez > Sykbird > [who the fuck even knows why they are scumreading who they are]

I expect more clear reason from the slot. I don't expect them to write things off or to misadvocate, which is what's happening (this mainly from Nacho).
I'm still not confident in reading Ploti, but the towngame I did play with them - they had emotion. Fallibility which was to do with gamestate. A cautious passion about not knowing.

I don't have a problem with lynching Mirhawk today aside from "why"? I think focussing on one shitty thing a player did, to call a player scum, is a bit weak.
That's sorta why I like Cakez for town too. He has explanations for what he does and isn't afraid at all about opening himself up to cracks. He's just posting what he thinks.

-

anyway I'm back for a bit, took yesterday off. reading up a bit.

[The Pied Piper]

Okay, itlepip I think I've found your mirhawk case but if I'm missing any parts of it let me know.

24- Kinda awkward.

-- oh this post isn't a case against Mirhawk, because this is a Skybird post in which she admires Axel's song lyrics thing. I don't really care about this post or think it's alignment indicative for her. What did you find awkward about it? Do you think awkward is a towntell for her or a scumtell or something else?

128- good start but questions at end are bad.
Lot of filler questions.
697- Dram read is weird. Beeboy read could be town actually though.

I agree.

711- Super bad and scummy, association based on a 1 post defense is kinda insane

She could be tying one of them to the other; if one of them is scum the other is probably town. I don't mind people who scumhunt with associatives even before flips because trying to call the scumteam without help is fun but this doesn't feel like that. She doesn't go anywhere with it.[/quote]

829- solid

I agree with everything in that post: True Ogre and I are town, Tammy and Mala were being Tammy and Mala and probably would've had that conversation regardless. But why did she get a townread on True Ogre and my slot out of our discussion when she didn't out of Tammy vs Mala? What was the difference between those two conversations? Why wasn't it noise when it was Ogre and Me?

1196- awkward again, if either flip scum the other is going to be under scrutiny

When you said awkward earlier about her interaction with Axel, did you mean it the way you mean it here, that you're seeing a connection between the two of them?

Podo, Ranger and Ogre posts are pretty towny.
Cakez revote is weird.
Semantics defense is shit but I actually kind of like Sky on reread.

Sorry guys.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Pretty sure this one is actually scum though.

What I don't understand is that you went through Skybird's ISO and saw a lot of things that we saw and brought up some new points of your own, and you think she could be scum together with a few other people, and the conclusion you draw on her is that you kind of like her in reread. Do you know what you like about her? It feels like we're seeing some of the same things and having the same reactions to the same posts but we're reaching a different conclusion.

I feel like this is the coasting scum slot. I really should have been pushing this earlier but given where the game is at right now I can't ever see Mirhawk being town right now unless I am super wrong this game.

Ok.

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

I couldn't find the full thing, link me if I missed it.

I'd have to reread the end of the day one myself (so many things on my todo list T.T).

Spoiler: mirhawk's posts about davesaz from page 2 of his ISO

OMFG Dave

Has anyone OTHER then me looked at his iso and noted how he hasn't done ANYTHING useful today.

Mirhawk, Dav read ASAP.

I have a flip flop read on him.
Overall I'd say it's a light scumread, but I'm not all that convinced in the accuracy of it.
I still stand by the bit I originally scumread him for as I usually view indirect pushing of wagons as an explicitly scummy activity. But apparently this sort of attitude of asking leading questions and not pushing hard is kinda Dave's thing.
He's not really scumhunting, and he's not really pushing the reads he has, but again that's apparently not unusual either.
He has the occasional post that looks a little bad, but they feel townish mostly.
People keep saying that the things I was scumreading him for aren't indicative for him so I don't know.

fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...

yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.

Man, I hadn't thought of weak fruit vendors as even being a thing.
That being said, if you want a reason to tie the two of us together I would start with the fact I've spent the entire game townreading him for reasons that amount to "gut".

When precisely, I'm not sure.

There was never a moment when I decided he was no longer scummy. It was more like I pursued other scumreads for so long that I eventually stopped really thinking about him as one.

Also, I've seen manipulative shit from lots of town players all the friggin time. Marquis fakeclaimed miller yesterday for lol's and reactions.

Also If that's what Pistachion's role name is then I have literally no idea what went down with Ogre's night action.

I think that in a 21 player game, putting something on hold to focus on another thing isn't terrible, and that it can happen that you end up focusing on the other thing for long enough that you stop really caring about the original thing. For example a month ago I cared about Seniors vote on SnarkySnowman because I agreed that they should know that Snarky is Just Like That^TM but I don't care about it anymore, because even though I still agree with that point, it was talked to death and there's nothing new to say about it and a lot of things have happened since then.

I have a scumread on Cakez that is on hold because I'm focusing on Skybird right now. I was scumreading Mirhawk around the time of the miller thing but that's another thing that was talked to death and he's done a lot since then. Seniors had asked me to sort them so I started working on that but I had so much else on my plate when I wasn't feeling well and I didn't have the energy to get a more solid grip on a nulltownlean when I was in the middle of something else. You're asking about Mirhawk and I'd have to make an ISO map to give an answer I'd be happy with. The short answer is that he just isn't bothering me enough right now to derail my attention from the stuff already on my todo list.

I only have 4 names at-or-below my "i would not derail their wagon" tier, which is a situation that I'm unsatisfied with right now. The tier above that one is labelled "idek mafia's hard" and I'm unhappy that dwlee replaced into the slot that was in that tier because he's not the easiest kid to read. Mirhawk's in the bottom 4 but I can't lynch 4 people today and we're coming up on a deadline again.

My playstyle takes forever but I need to do my thing if I want to be confident in something and realistically speaking I'm not going to get through my todo list before the deadline hits, but I will add Mirhawk to the list because I think it's pretty cool how you're approaching this game with your circle thing and I respect you but I need to get there myself, if that makes sense, and I don't think I'm going to have time to get there myself today. I would vote them to prevent a no lynch, though I'm unlikely to be awake near the deadline.

pedit: we have each posted cases on skybird. could go back to cakez. i have had so many emotions this game, i'm just trying to keep them out of the game thread because they were over the top. people always call my emotions fake when i have them and that tends to hurt worse than whatever i was originally upset about so i've been trying to walk away from the thread when that happens and i've had to do that a few times already this game. i've also been trying not take my IRL stuff out on the game and I know that a lot of the moodswings i've been having are caused by IRL things. There have been a bunch of days that I didn't post anything because the only thing I was capable of doing was melting down and I think it's healthier for the gamestate if I don't.

[True Ogre]

Also just by the by, Axel continues to impress as scum.

I think it was itle that mentioned some 'GreyICE' tell. I read it at work and was about to just vote Axel if he was actually an alt.

Then I realised it wasn't actually GreyICE I was thinking of - it was ICEninja in Mini 1742. I really don't like the way Axel's coming in and sorta wall-posting cases on wagons which already have momentum. Out of the blue.

I can't remember exactly what the tell you said you got told about was, but I think Axel's quite likely scum and having a pretty decent verbose-scum-coasting game, most recently popping in with a series of accusations against Skybird in 3240.

Also Seniors I have you as town and not a small part of that is because of the shitty blitz game and the difference in your behaviour as opposed to there. I wouldn't be too quick to put Axel into a town category, just sayin'.

[True Ogre]

people always call my emotions fake when i have them and that tends to hurt worse than whatever i was originally upset about so i've been trying to walk away from the thread when that happens and i've had to do that a few times already this game. i've also been trying not take my IRL stuff out on the game and I know that a lot of the moodswings i've been having are caused by IRL things. There have been a bunch of days that I didn't post anything because the only thing I was capable of doing was melting down and I think it's healthier for the gamestate if I don't.

Look. I respect you and love you as a(n internet) person regardless of anything you say or do and I generally and obviously just sometimes want to give you huge hugs because of who you are.
But RL stuff happens regardless of alignment and I'm not talking about what you see in yourself as investing emotion, or being emotional. I'm talking about how I interpret it. I tend to trust myself.

I'll take some time to read back through you guys - it's overdue. I don't really want to do what I did with Persivul in Clowntardis and put off ISOing him and miss actual-scum if you turn out to be town.
You're breaking my heart (well mainly monsieur nacho is, I fucking love that dude's play when he's town) - but I'll take it with a fresh perspective. Best I can do.

[True Ogre]

Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans
  
• 3-5 townleans
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all)
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans)
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting.
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner

This is a really strong entrance from Nacho. But it doesn't go anywhere. The comment on easy mislynches is odd, too.

(I'm not going to do a blow-by-blow ISO but this is a post I didn't think was important alignment-wise with events moving as they were at the time. I'd hope there was a post ~100 posts later which would continue to narrow and self-clarify.)

[True Ogre]

Wait - was that post you Plotinus? I seem to remember fucking one of them up. It seems VERY nacho.

[True Ogre]

Alright, so far I haven't seen anything out of place for Nacho. So I'm unsure why you're focusing him for a sort so early on. Also then there's the fact Ploti is in that hydra too.

What do you mean about me? Do you mean that Sakura should be trying to sort us based on my posting or something else?

Yeah well I guess it was Ploti based on the subsequent "are you feigning" but this is really. fucking. confusing.
I need to move on.

[True Ogre]

Roughly when does Seniors become a townread of yours, Piper?
I'm up to post 709 and I know it doesn't happen before Day 2.

[True Ogre]

Aussie timezone so op.

Ahwell I'll just shut up and continue typing thoughts into notepad. Will be around for a couple of hours.