Newbie 1700 - GAME OVER

[Ghostwheel]

Thatguy should absolutely vote someone today. He had a good start, as I said, but he's null so far to me and I want to see what happens when he gets into the game.

Hoppic it was a joke, all I wanted to do was point out a flaw in his form of randomness. The contrition I got out of his reaction was icing on the cake.

"Apparently" was the word I was talking about, a word choice that thatguy pinged me on. Now it only matters if I'm lynched and flip scum, which won't happen, but nonetheless I felt the need to sneak in an explanation for it.

Maybe I'm new, but I've lurked my share of games, and I've played a number of social games like this. I also feel confident I can use my head. I feel sure of things sometimes, but that doesn't mean you have to believe me. Why not attack my reasoning that the game was going to stall a bit instead of attacking my confidence? You've been attacking people's confidence a lot now that I think about it.

RC I don't need cases I need more well formed opinions. You've said you'll get back to us on multiple things but I'll settle for new, original analysis.

After thatguy, RC, and Huntress talk again I'll have a better idea of what direction to go pressure wise.

[BTD6_maker]

I disagree about Thatguy. I personally think that unless he is 100% sure, it may be best for him not to vote on Day 1 at all. If you pressurise him, it would probably end very badly. Despite my normally open and honest nature, this is perhaps one of the few times I will refuse to give reasons. Please do not ask me. If you can figure out the reason by yourself (and someone probably can) then fine, but remember that it may be bad to share it.

Also, Hoppic for some reason still has a vote on me. He said that the primary reason was that I was apparently confident that Cytheflyguy's tells were newbie tells and not scum tells, but now the general consensus is that Cytheflyguy did what he did because he!/ new. I'm wondering if Hoppic still has a scumread on me.

Pressurising RadiantCowbells may be a good way to get him to explain his reads. For some reason, he seems very reluctant to explain them.

[BTD6_maker]

I meant "he's new". The autocorrect on my iPad is extremely strange.

[karnos]

I disagree about Thatguy. I personally think that unless he is 100% sure, it may be best for him not to vote on Day 1 at all.

No one can ever be 100% sure on day 1. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. It's certainly a poor play for town to vote no lynch on day one and give scum a free kill, but given the less than 100% certainty, it almost seems you are suggesting that.

It's important for everyone to vote. For each townie that abstains from voting, the effective power of a scum vote gets stronger.

[BTD6_maker]

I am certainly not suggesting that we No Lynch or even that any one of the rest of us should No Vote or vote No Lynch. However, I have a very specific read on Thatguy which makes me think that he (and only he) should No Vote if unsure toDay only. Of course, this is only advice. Perhaps Thatguy wants to vote at some point, in which case that's fine. Again, I will not give any reasons but by now some people (hopefully Town and not scum) may have worked it out.

[Ghostwheel]

Even if you read him as PR which by your language I can only guess is the case, there's no PR on the list that I wouldn't want to participate in voting. You need town votes to lynch scum.

[Ghostwheel]

To be clear I don't want you to explain yourself or fish for a role yada yada, but no, eventually everyone should vote and have opinions.

[BTD6_maker]

I am certainly not suggesting that we No Lynch or even that any one of the rest of us should No Vote or vote No Lynch. However, I have a very specific read on Thatguy which makes me think that he (and only he) should No Vote if unsure toDay only. Of course, this is only advice. Perhaps Thatguy wants to vote at some point, in which case that's fine. Again, I will not give any reasons but by now some people (hopefully Town and not scum) may have worked it out.

I am not saying that I do not want him to vote. What I was trying to say is that he perhaps shouldn't be pressured into making a vote immediately.

Of course, now that you've said that, his vote will be helpful to Town. More information is generally pro-Town. It's just that his lack of vote actually led me to my read.

[karnos]

Well now the beans are spilled. Hopefully a doctor is taking note.

[BTD6_maker]

I guess after your post my read is obvious. Yes, I am reading Thatguy as cop. I wanted to insinuate that without being the person who made it too obvious (Karnos did just that). I'm not saying that this makes Karnos more likely to be scum (in fact, scum would be less eager to share it) but now, although I think my read is correct, I'm actually hoping for it to be wrong so we don't lose a PR. Of course, in the 1/18 probability (assuming Thatguy is cop) that we lynch Mafia Roleblocker we've effectively won. In fact, any scum lynch will help even if Thatguy is night killed. Of course, Thatguy is the only person who actually knows whether my reads are accurate. (I got them because a newbie cop is very likely to not vote at all without a Guilty).

[Ghostwheel]

No beans are spilled. One player has suspicion about another player. It may not even be right. We won't know until we investigate which is exactly why we won't do that. Me calling BTD out on that is not any more obvious than his "OMG I don't want to say why I trust him" language.

BTD doesn't want to push an early claim or something but there was never a danger of that. I already said my peace about the wagon, but I will pressure thatguy if he does something suspicious in the future.

We should just stop talking about this and move on. I for one have no idea what BTD is talking about and none of this affects how I feel about thatguy. For example, my questions to Huntress are points of interest to me. When I have more time today I'llinvestigate with some throughness but I want the perspective of others.

[karnos]

I am thinking, maybe we should go over the various power roles and how to play them optimally.

I am a newbie, this being my second game here, but I think I do have a good handle on this aspect of the game so I'll share my thoughts to start. Anyone who disagrees with what I am writing, feel free to correct me.

(I'm not claiming to be an expert, these are just my opinions).

Town Jailkeeper

Only rarely would you claim this role. why? Because even if you think you prevent a kill at night, you don't know if it's because you jailed the mafia killer, or because you jailed the innocent townie target. So your claim isn't giving much extra information to town. Generally you should either try to jail the players you think might be mafia. In theory you might want to jail an outed town power role to protect them, but in practice the newbie game matrix means any game in which you exist there isn't any town power role worth protecting.

Town 1-shot Bulletproof

If you are targeted for a night kill and saved by your power, I think it almost always makes sense to claim. It's crucial information to the townies to have a confirmed good player, and if a mafia is foolish enough to counter claim they just outed themselves, so it should be safe. Best of all, since your power is used at that point, you might not even be a priority kill for scum, since they would prefer to kill the other town power role.

Town Cop

Claim if you get a confirmed mafia. You will get killed by the other mafia almost certainly, but statistically it's worth making the sacrifice to nail a scum. Exception: if it looks like you can steer the lynch to the confirmed mafia without outright claiming, even better. I wouldn't claim just to reveal an innocent townie unless you are in a situation where you might be lynched anyway.

Town Doctor

Tough call. In a Lynch Wrong And Lose situation, you want to claim if you saved someone, and announce who you saved, because you should know that the player is a good townie (barring rare case of a mafia gambit where the intentionally skip the chance to kill at night). Earlier in the game I don't think you should outright claim, because it will just turn yourself into the target.

Town Tracker

Claim if you actually track a mafia. Not really worth claiming "didn't go anywhere" type results, because that isn't even proof the player is good, they could just be the scum who didn't participate in the kill.

Vanilla Townie

Don't claim vanilla townie unless it's Lynch Wrong And Lose situation- why? Because the scum will go for the kill on the townie who didn't claim vanilla, since they are obviously the power role. Just play smart and try to lynch the scum.

[Ghostwheel]

BTD that's weak logic and I don't think it means thatguy is cop.

Also you were obvious lol.

Please. Can we stop?

[Ghostwheel]

Karnos it is way way too early for that and making a plan for roles is borderline rolefishing.

Please. Guys.

[karnos]

I guess after your post my read is obvious. Yes, I am reading Thatguy as cop. I wanted to insinuate that without being the person who made it too obvious (Karnos did just that). I'm not saying that this makes Karnos more likely to be scum (in fact, scum would be less eager to share it) but now, although I think my read is correct, I'm actually hoping for it to be wrong so we don't lose a PR. Of course, in the 1/18 probability (assuming Thatguy is cop) that we lynch Mafia Roleblocker we've effectively won. In fact, any scum lynch will help even if Thatguy is night killed. Of course, Thatguy is the only person who actually knows whether my reads are accurate. (I got them because a newbie cop is very likely to not vote at all without a Guilty).

That is not what I thought. There are other power roles that could suggest a similar strategy. It could also just be that he was indecisive, or he could even be scum misdirecting.

Specific: he could be a tracker, and if so a doctor could exist in the same game, thus my suggestion. Or even if he isn't, if the scum think he is a power role, that increases the chance of them going for him, so I would still push for a doctor or jailer to target him. Of course talking about this so blatantly means the scum might just target a different player anyway... but that might not be a bad thing if thatguy is a good PR.

[karnos]

Karnos it is way way too early for that and making a plan for roles is borderline rolefishing.

Please. Guys.

On the contrary, the above posts where a role was strongly hinted at is *why* I made that post. A newbie with a power role might not realize the danger of claiming at the wrong time, I specifically made the post to prevent that from occurring.

[Ghostwheel]

Thatguy made one post in which he didn't vote.

Then like 3 people voted him and all the speculation started happening.

Why is this such a big deal?

If you are PR only claim if you will be lynched AND you are asked or if yoh personally can determine thag outing our info is worth dying for. That's all we needed karnos.

[Ghostwheel]

EBWOP: or if you personally can determine that outing your info...

[karnos]

If you are PR only claim if you will be lynched AND you are asked or if yoh personally can determine thag outing our info is worth dying for. That's all we needed karnos.

There are players who are playing their first game. How are they supposed to know if the claim is worthwhile?

[Ghostwheel]

By thinking about it and by being conservative when in doubt. If there are a set of rules scum emulate that just as easily.

[karnos]

By thinking about it and by being conservative when in doubt. If there are a set of rules scum emulate that just as easily.

I'm not sure what you think the danger is.

Hypothetical: X is the cop, he follows the advice I posted above. How is the scum going to use the advice above against us? They still don't know X is the cop, and they can't claim cop without a counter claim wrecking them. I'm just confused at what the downside of sharing this information could possibly be. Can you give an example scenario?

[cytheflyguy]

By thinking about it and by being conservative when in doubt. If there are a set of rules scum emulate that just as easily.

I'm not sure what you think the danger is.

Hypothetical: X is the cop, he follows the advice I posted above. How is the scum going to use the advice above against us? They still don't know X is the cop, and they can't claim cop without a counter claim wrecking them. I'm just confused at what the downside of sharing this information could possibly be. Can you give an example scenario?

In all fairness, I agree with karnos on this. Regardless of roles, this information can't really backfire on anyone with the roles.

[Huntress]

I forgot to mention that I have less free time at the weekend, but I should be able to get to this later tomorrow. I've only skimmed the new posts but there's one thing I want to comment on now:

BTD's obvious fingering of Thatguy as a PR, in 120, and his really weird suggestion in his next post, that Thatguy shouldn't vote, thus drawing more attention to it, looked more like scum pointing out a PR read to his partner, in case he was lynched before he could post it their PT at night. I can't see any town motivation for it.

Vote: BTD

I got them because a newbie cop is very likely to not vote at all without a Guilty

I've played and read a lot of newbie games with newbies from many different backgrounds and I've

never

seen this before.


I'll address the rest of the new stuff tomorrow.

[Ghostwheel]

Uh Huntress I don't think that makes any sense because BTD wasn't even close to getting lynched, he could always out his cop read at L-1 or twilight, and I read real distress at thatguy possibly being pressured too much and if he was scum with that read he'd just want to let thatguy claim or get lynched.

You've been reaching pretty hard on what you think scum behavior looks like, looking for PR fishing or buddy coaching (and stretching hard for it) when simple manipulation is far more important and common. My vote on you is now serious.

[RadiantCowbells]

Voting me isn't going to make me any less reluctant to explain my reads.