Newbie 1700 - GAME OVER

[Huntress]

@ tojam: I don't get the first and last paragraphs of 188. What makes you think thatguy was on for those six hours, and how is karnos's post time relevant to his alignment?

Here's the thing about the huntress wagon.

Scumhunting isn't solving a puzzle like in the movies. People aren't trying to tell half truths that subtly come out in speech patterns and irrelevant contradictions.

Huntress' content is what is scummy and I'm not going to try and beat everyone over the head with it because I want the pressure to accomplish something but consider the following:

What does the bolded part have to do with the wagon on me? It looks like you put it there to cast shade on me while still implying your wagon is just for pressure. Or are you trying to dissuade us from looking for the motivation in your posts?

Yeah I mean pressure as in centering the discussion around certain issues, and I don't expect to get as much out of you as I do out of others commenting about you.

I scumread you but I don't have the evidence on you or anyone else to push for a lynch, nor should I. I wanted to make my intent absolutely clear because people have voiced concerns about what votes meant. I wanted a few votes on you, now I have that. I wanted you and others talking, we're getting that. Eventually those on and off a wagon can make a consensus of what to do.

So you admit you have no evidence but you're still willing to let me be lynched? Don't claim it's necessary to get me and others talking. It isn't. In fact it's actually delaying me from answering the questions you asked earlier, so what's the point of that? However, it has confirmed my read of you, so I guess that's a benefit.

Vote: Ghostwheel

The proof of your intentions is in your vote.

[Huntress]

I don't agree. I mean, maybe that is true if pressure is uysed wrong. Correctly, you vote to put pressure on a player. If you don't get the results you want, you encourage others to vote. If the pressure isn't enough at L-3, you go to L-2, etc. If at L-1 you still don't get useful results, you lynch the player.

How do you define "useful results". And have you got any yet?

Newbie cops refuse to vote for a person "without evidence".

That page relates to a time when almost all games had a night start, and so applies to a cop who already has a result to base his actions on. So it's not something we really see any more.

I didn't like her whole spiel about pressure not being effective. If you are pro town, your incentive is to bow to the pressure and explain yourself, not to argue that the technique won't work on you. If you are team good, what do you have to hide?

I'd love to know how pressure votes can magically make more time for me to post over a difficult weekend, or magically make my aging laptop not play up just when I want to read and post (which is what happened last night just after I posted elsewhere and tried to come back to this).

[RadiantCowbells]

Hoppic I have made it abundantly clear that I'm not voting her based on her activity but based on the content of the activity she has. Much lf it is fluff/IC answering questions, and the scum pushes that are there are weak, overly picky on language, misrepresent what scum is going to do and clearly lack proper explanation of motivation. Minor point but she also failed the color test.

RC I think a protective role could reasonably decide to be on me tonight because I've been pretty vocal and helpful and obvtown. I also would much rather get Huntress than cy today. RC's townread gets better here but he also cements himself as the single person most dangerous for me to falsely townread here so I'll be constantly reevaluating.

Look through all my past newbie games.
In the last 10 where I was town I was nightkilled N1 in 9 of them.
Don't encourage bad play.

Huntress, I see you're not addressing my case against you?

[Ghostwheel]

Bolded part is more of a general statement. Looking for motivations is absolutely fine, but thinking every scummy post is going to be some weak attempt at PR fishing or scum coaching is more along the lines of that statement. Stuff like the thatguy votes and Hoppics confidence analysis are similar to this. This is also clearly my opinion but people are allowed to chew on that.

There was a time when I wanted you to answer my questions, then you came in with your third bad case and I thought voting you would be better instead. I won't say it's necessary to get people talking, but it is necessary to get people talking about you. It is true, neither you nor anyone else has actively or passively changed my mind about wanting to lynch you but that is not my decision alone. I don't have no evidence, what I said is I don't have enough evidence for my liking. You are still by far my best bet, do not delude yourself. I have openly outed you as my top scumread, and made honest statements about what I intend for the pace of the game, attempted to explain myself as clearly as possible, and give people the tools to understand my perspective while simultaneously making their own decision. So yeah, cut this out and start addressing the arguments RC and I have against you if you want to convince others.

[cytheflyguy]

Tbf...Huntress seems kinda scum even more to me and makes me want to hammer lol.

Like I'm not kidding. In the next 12-24 hours, if Huntress does not start answering questions by stopping being so hesitant to answer and addressing people when they ask you a question at L1, I will not be afraid to hammer. Whether she be town or not, I will take responsibility for the action.

[Rob14]

Vote Count #1.7:

Huntress:

RadiantCowbells, Ghostwheel, BTD6_maker, karnos (4)

Hoppic:

tojam2, cytheflyguy (2)

BTD6_maker:

thatguy (1)

karnos:

Hoppic (1)

Ghostwheel:

Huntress (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-05-03 19:00:00)

[Ghostwheel]

And RC I'd rather encourage mindgames because you're basically telling the scum to kill me 100% of the time but this isn't worth talking about so I'll leave it at that.

[Huntress]

I think Huntress is scum for a few reasons, ftr.

1) She's not scumhunting.

She's doing a ton of IIOA, doing some IC duty discussing theory, but there's no post I can point to of hers where I get the feeling she's trying to solve the game.

Funny, I can point to three at least.

2) Meta read.

Town!Huntress talks very personally, directs things at people, and generally keeps people 'close' emotionally. Scum!Huntress keeps a distance and talks very impersonally and avoids confrontation.
This is so far down Scum!Huntress lane that it's not even funny.

I'm pretty sure you've never played with me when I've been town, unless you were on an alt. And that description of my town play is very flattering but I don't think I match up to it, especially the third point which I'm not sure I even know what you're getting at there. Where have you seen me do that?

3) She's not engaging with me at all.

I voted her, she said almost nothing to me about it, isn't pushing me in reverse, and is just sort of hoping that she can lurk off the pressure. This is bad in general but this is EXACTLY the advice that she gave to her scumpartner in the last game we played together where she was scum and I was town.

I was concentrating on people who I had a chance of reading early in the game, which doesn't include you, and I didn't see anything in your vote on me that I needed to respond to. I rarely bother about early or singleton votes on me. The advice I gave to my scumpartner in that game was specifically because he was panicking about your tunnelling him and I didn't want him making a mistake.

Huntress, I see you're not addressing my case against you?

My post was already too long so I split it in two and sent it before continuing.

[tojam2]

thatguy's vote seems a little like 'cba, I'll talk about it later' and I don't balame him, he was probably online for the majority of those 6 hours and got bored.

I can't see Huntress as scum, however I've probably missed something as I got back from college literally 20 minutes ago, if someone quotes I may vote.

Hoppic, you've just given yourself away as scum by changing your vote when someone doubted the wagon's integrity, I also can't see scumkarnos posting at 4 a.m, I don't think he's experienced enough to try and use timing to his advantage (unless he's West NA, in which case my argument falls to pieces).
VOTE: Hoppic

When I posted before there were 3 wagons: 3 votes on huntress, 3 votes on thatguy, and 3 votes on btd6. You've just gone through the votes on btd6 (me, huntress, thatguy) as particularly suspicious. Why?

I didn't mention the wagon, and there shouldn't have been a reason to assume I was picking apart that wagon.

cy/Huntress?

Huntress and I would be more likely, haven't read cy much though.

@ tojam: I don't get the first and last paragraphs of 188. What makes you think thatguy was on for those six hours, and how is karnos's post time relevant to his alignment?

1. Who would post every 1 or 2 hours consistently, they'd have to either be pretty bored or really concerned about getting lynched
2. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen timing being used, I once used it to conclude someone was scum based on the NP length (on another site).

Huntress claim please, or I will have no choice but to lynch.

[Huntress]

Hoppic I have made it abundantly clear that I'm not voting her based on her activity but based on the content of the activity she has. Much lf it is fluff/IC answering questions, and the scum pushes that are there are weak, overly picky on language, misrepresent what scum is going to do and clearly lack proper explanation of motivation. Minor point but she also failed the color test.

Weak, yes. It was very early in the Day. Picky on language. Language is what often gives those early gut reads, which this was. Misrep? No. Colour test? You're joking, right?


Going out now. More when I get back.

[BTD6_maker]

Just because Huntress is at L-1 doesn't mean she has to claim. Forcing claims carry other problems. For example, any scum could claim VT. If you were to lynch any VT claims, then at least 71% of VT claims would be mislynched (possibly more if there is a sixth VT or some PRs fakeclaim VT to avoid the nightkill).

The emphasis should be on defending yourself, not on claiming.

[Ghostwheel]

^Agreed, and perhaps Tojam is too hasty here but it's his prerogative. As a person on the wagon if you feel Tojam is being too hasty, you can unvote, call him out on it, let him vote, and take control of the hammer yourself.

Many VT claims would be mislynched, but the point of asking for claims is to ensure you don't lynch PRs, PRs on L-1 shouldn't fakeclaim. Scum fakeclaiming PR buy time for themselves but are doomed to die.

Point is if you think Huntress is scum, you should expect a VT, which would confirm your suspicions, it's a caution rather than a be all end all or even the priority here.

[Hoppic]

I can't see Huntress as scum, however I've probably missed something as I got back from college literally 20 minutes ago, if someone quotes I may vote.

You've gone from not seeing her as scum to having no choice but to lynch her pretty quickly...

cy/Huntress?

Huntress and I would be more likely, haven't read cy much though.

You would be more likely mafia than cy?

[Hoppic]

Point is if you think Huntress is scum, you should expect a VT, which would confirm your suspicions, it's a caution rather than a be all end all or even the priority here.

If she's town, she's probably VT, and she's more likely to be town than scum, statistically speaking, so to say that her claiming VT confirms that she's scum is just wrong.

[Hoppic]

Huntress, could you please link us to the last game you played as town? So we can see this emotional closeness in action.

Sorry for the multiple posts. I keep thinking of new stuff.

[Ghostwheel]

Which is why that's not what I was saying. I'm only saying that's what you'd expect, that people on the lynch train that claim VT don't get off based on that claim. To be on the lynch train there have to be other reasons.

Hoppic pointing out that old tojam post is very astute, it's a change of heart that's giving me whiplash. Explain why you have no choice Tojam (Again that kind of wording REEEEALLY bothers me and there are way too many people acting like this for it to be a scumread but it really should be.)

[Huntress]

@ Ghostwheel:

What I think is bothering me most about you is your continued attempts to separate yourself from the lynch you are pushing. Most people pushing lynches are happy to take responsibility for them - see RC's posts for example - but you are doing the opposite. Once again you say in 228 that wanting to lynch me is not your decision alone. That and your admitted attempts to take control of the game (the rqs, the last para of 196, and the comment in 228 concerning what you "intend for the pace of the game"). Trying to manipulate the game like that comes from a scum mindset, not a town one.

Tbf...Huntress seems kinda scum even more to me and makes me want to hammer lol.

Like I'm not kidding. In the next 12-24 hours, if Huntress does not start answering questions by stopping being so hesitant to answer and addressing people when they ask you a question at L1, I will not be afraid to hammer. Whether she be town or not, I will take responsibility for the action.

Where is this question which you say was asked at L-1 and which you claim I haven't answered?
Where have I been hesitant?
Why are you trying to rush a lynch when we've still got nearly a week of discussion time left?
And more importantly, from my point of view, why are you in a hurry to stop me posting just when I have more time to do so?

1. Who would post every 1 or 2 hours consistently, they'd have to either be pretty bored or really concerned about getting lynched
2. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen timing being used, I once used it to conclude someone was scum based on the NP length (on another site).

1. There are quite a few players on site who post that often.
2. I've used timing myself in the past but I don't see why you would think karnos posting at 4 a.m makes him town rather than scum? Surely he could be awake at that time as any alignment?

Huntress claim please, or I will have no choice but to lynch.

Why would you have no choice? I'll repeat the questions I asked cy above:
Why are you trying to rush a lynch when we've still got nearly a week of discussion time left?
And more importantly, from my point of view, why are you in a hurry to stop me posting just when I have more time to do so?

Huntress, could you please link us to the last game you played as town? So we can see this emotional closeness in action.

All my games are listed on my wiki page. Just click the link to the wiki at the bottom of my post. The only games not listed there yet are my two most recent scum games I think, but I'll check that.

[Huntress]

It was actually only one game missing, and I've added it in now.

[Hoppic]

Yeah...actually...I see what RC means about the different metas.

Ghostwheels seems quite different in his other game that I read too though. Much jokier.

[Hoppic]

Wait, no. Huntress was kinda samey to here in gelato mafia, and she was town then. She did more scum hunting, but she wasn't at L1, which could explain it.

Although, even at L1, if she knows she could get lynched any minute, why isn't she giving us her reads to help us in the next day after she flips town?

[cytheflyguy]

Tbf...Huntress seems kinda scum even more to me and makes me want to hammer lol.

Like I'm not kidding. In the next 12-24 hours, if Huntress does not start answering questions by stopping being so hesitant to answer and addressing people when they ask you a question at L1, I will not be afraid to hammer. Whether she be town or not, I will take responsibility for the action.

Where is this question which you say was asked at L-1 and which you claim I haven't answered?
Where have I been hesitant?
Why are you trying to rush a lynch when we've still got nearly a week of discussion time left?
And more importantly, from my point of view, why are you in a hurry to stop me posting just when I have more time to do so?

1 & 2: I'm mainly referring to the points that other people are making (like on post 222 (which is something I need to address soon as I'm also accused xD)), they are things I agree with, so those are things you should take up with other people.
3: I have a strong hunch on you.
4: I didn't stop you? Like I gave you 12-24 hours. That's reasonable time imo.

I still have suspicion on you, but I don't want to hammer just yet.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm also pretty sure CyTheFlyGuy is her scumpartner, and don't forget about that if I die (and if you're protective and not protecting me you're making a serious mistake.)
He put Huntress as one of his major scumreads but refused to vote, called the wagon odd, and is blatantly setting up for her scumflip (trying to call me out for bussing pre-flip on a wagon he's not even on.)
Rest of the game are variants of townreads. If I'm wrong about one of my townreads it's probably Tojam.

I still have her as my biggest scumread ^^. I haven't voted bc if I did, it would be the hammer vote, which would lynch her. We still should give her time, as we still have over a week (tho maybe we can get it over with sooner lol)

And, uh, what's a scumflip?

Sides, why would, hypothetically speaking, of course, I make her a major scumread if I'm her partner? Like is that a thing here? lol

I do have suspicion on someone else, but as I'm about to leave for the night, I'll save it until tomorrow for me.

[cytheflyguy]

Wait, no. Huntress was kinda samey to here in gelato mafia, and she was town then. She did more scum hunting, but she wasn't at L1, which could explain it.

Although, even at L1, if she knows she could get lynched any minute, why isn't she giving us her reads to help us in the next day after she flips town?

This is actually a good point as to why I am still considering putting her in the hammer vote. o:

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: CyTheFlyGuy

Huntress stlil probs scum but this is scum 100%.

[cytheflyguy]

VOTE: CyTheFlyGuy

Huntress stlil probs scum but this is scum 100%.

Lol. Ok. So does anything I said mean nothing? xD

Or does that make you think I sould more maf?