A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Dwlee99]

i have said all I need to say about it and you guys just sit there shaking your heads instead of engaging my case.

[Rob14]

Vote Count #3.8 (unchanged):

Mirhawk:

Marquis, SirCakez, podoboq, itlepip, Cerberus v666, Friendless Seniors (6)

Friendless Seniors:

The Pied Piper, pistachi0n, Flubbernugget (3)

The Pied Piper:

dramonic, Mirhawk, Dwlee99 (3)

Cerberus v666:

True Ogre (1)

Dwlee99:

Malakittens (1)

Not Voting:

Axelrod, davesaz

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-05-08 10:15:00)

[Mirhawk]

i have said all I need to say about it and you guys just sit there shaking your heads instead of engaging my case.

+1

[Mirhawk]

This is an open question to everyone by the way since piper isn't here.

In what scenario does a town player decide to lie about how much information will be revealed instead of just saying that they didn't want to say.

There's no reason to do so.

[itlepip]

When did that happen?

[Malakittens]

Hm.

So today and Tommorow I have major exams and then another one ion Tuesday

[pistachi0n]

I bitch at people for being stupid, until someone is stupid to such a level that they must be scum, or everyone else is so not stupid they must be town.

you've never seen town be stupid?

[Mirhawk]

They stated that they couldn't disclose why they thought Tictac was town "without outing a bunch of PRs for no reason" (exact wording) in 3920.

They later admitted that the only PR they would have to out was Tictac himself. This was in 4302.

To be perfectly honest I think they could have done that without giving as much of Tictac's role away as well, but that's more opinion then anything else.

[Cerberus v666]

I bitch at people for being stupid, until someone is stupid to such a level that they must be scum, or everyone else is so not stupid they must be town.

you've never seen town be stupid?

I've seen them be stupid. And I've failed to oppose mislynches on them as a result of an overwhelming level of stupid being required to explain away their play as being town motivated.

Being stupid isn't a scum tell in and of itself, but the longer it goes on, the less probable it becomes that their stupid actions are indicative of dumb town rather than malicious scum. In my opinion at least.

[Dwlee99]

They stated that they couldn't disclose why they thought Tictac was town "without outing a bunch of PRs for no reason" (exact wording) in 3920.

They later admitted that the only PR they would have to out was Tictac himself. This was in 4302.

To be perfectly honest I think they could have done that without giving as much of Tictac's role away as well, but that's more opinion then anything else.

^ +admitting an inno soft on tictac

[True Ogre]

I mean, you can talk to the half of the game here that has played with me, and among them, those who are scumreading me, are doing so because of my complete lack of involvement in the game, not because of the sort of content there is in my posts. At least, not for the sort of content you are accusing me of having in my posts. Because they expect that sort of content from me.

But you're feeding that response to them. I remember you mentioning that about yourself self-effacingly at least once. (I'll look it up in a sec)

And I can *see* that you're not being driven to make your reads until you're pressured. And don't get me wrong, I'm not voting you for pressure, I'm voting you because I think there's a good likelihood that you're scum. But I wonder what then drives you to make random comments on the gamestate or what other players "should" be doing and it doesn't gel. I mean you're here to find scum? So find scum.

Can I ask about Piper then?
When did you get a townread on them and how was it brought about?
Same with me. You've managed to get some kind of read on me and it wasn't really brought about by pressure I suppose, perhaps it's some kind of osmosis on your part, and some part me just asking about it or interacting with you?

Do you usually townhunt?
Do you usually have strong scumreads?
Who else in this game have you played with that would know if this is you or not?
What was your last game?

(sorry this post is primarily questions, but that's where I'm at)

Okay here's one example of you telling people (Seniors in this case) what they should expect from you and what they should be worried about:

What? I've barely even mentioned that! Usually it happens early in the day too.

And...umm...where's the activity? That's something you should expect from me, if I were trying to replicate anything.

Here's another example, and I think there are several more but I'm not in ISO/quote-dump mode tonight.

..naw man. This is EXACTLY the sort of shit I push people on. I don't understand why both of you, now, are insistent that forgetting about his scumread on Dave is what happened here. Let Mirhawk tell us himself. I also find it highly unlikely that you can tell me that you sincerely believe that completely dropping your top scum read for absolutely no reason is COMPLETELY NAI.

Anyways, the rest of this game though, yeah, totally not my normal town me. Sorry. Not giving it my all, so you get half-assed Cerb. My case isn't "Ranger thought it." It's, I find these points to be scummy and inconsistent for these reasons, which have been previously covered by myself and others. In addition, Ranger thought it was scum.

So you're setting expectations that you will be different as an excuse to... be different. Not only that but you're doing it pre-emptively.
That can come from town and scum for various reasons but I do want to know where you're coming from - thus the questions.

[True Ogre]

Hm.

So today and Tommorow I have major exams and then another one ion Tuesday :x

Good Luck! (You won't need it ;) )

[True Ogre]

Later when I have time I'll go through various people's old scum PTs and see if they're crumbhunters or not. Maybe it'll lead somewhere, maybe it won't. (I successfully towncleared a bunch of people in The Odds based on this activity and then...I forgot about it in lylo because I was too sick to reread and voted wrong.)

Did this ever happen Ploti? My skin still crawls whenever I remember Marquis and you saying that identifying Lovers was a reason to scumread Skybird... before she flipped.

[True Ogre]

If the scumteam is {Skybird, Piper, Marquis, TWL} I'm going to feed myself to Hiehachi in small pieces starting with my big claw.

[True Ogre]

They stated that they couldn't disclose why they thought Tictac was town "without outing a bunch of PRs for no reason" (exact wording) in 3920.

They later admitted that the only PR they would have to out was Tictac himself. This was in 4302.

To be perfectly honest I think they could have done that without giving as much of Tictac's role away as well, but that's more opinion then anything else.

So... Is this a case you're making for Piper-scum, or a matter of opinion?

(no need to respond to this, Dwlee)

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not sure what that wizard stuff is about

This is part of why you don't understand what we were doing.

I do however still have problems with the "exaggeration" over how many PR's were on the line.

Nacho didn't out every single person that we have a PR read on. You pushing at this angle bothers me because the only way that we can prove we weren't exaggerating is to list the rest of them and that would be anti-town as hell. Nacho was able to talk about it without saying everything but I wouldn't have been because I only have two modes: cryptic and verbose and I can't choose between them very well. The entire thing is a lot of threads tangled together in my head and I can't just pull one thread out and show it to you because of the way it is all interconnected.

I do however believe that any lying being done to other members of the town does have to be for some kind of tangible benefit. If you can't trust the word of other townies the game become exponentially more difficult for town.

It sounds like you think that we're town, and you know that we're not village idiots, and therefore it is not too much to ask for you to have extended some measure of trust towards us that even if you couldn't fully understand why we're doing something, we're doing it for good reason that will make sense in a day phase or two. I don't think everyone pushing us to reveal information that we hinted would be anti town to reveal is town, but a number of you must be town and it's baffling.

You know, by my reckoning Tictac should have used their investigation night two. I don't recall Tictac or Flubber ever saying they had used one. Did I miss this?

They were pretty obviously getting vigged night 2 so they needed to use their bulletproof shot instead to have a chance at surviving long enough to investigate. That's part of what we were doing on day 2 with implying that they were town in a way that could be construed as an inno: trying to prevent them from getting vigged.

Can we just lynch FS and cut all of...

this

*vague hand wave* short?

Yes, please.

which is fucking bogus

you know I'm town marquis

What is the scum motivation for removing Mala and davesaz from the mislynch pool? Who is Marquis scum together with that he's drowning in mislynches and can afford to do that?

Ugh.

If I am town, to your town perspective, lynching me today and dying leaves this town COMPLETELY DIRECTIONLESS.

VOTE: cerb

Fuck it. He has done nothing, and is completely and entirely coasting. TPP is probably scum but unlikely to get lynched. I'll deal with that in the future.

This tack kinda worked pretty well Day 1 when you were under pressure.
Nothing like successes of the past to inform future actions.

Funnily enough I'm not even in disagreement with you regarding Cerb atm.

As far as directionless though, that's just fearmongering pure and simple.

This.

I mean, simply put, the majority of what's been used as reasons to believe FS is scum, is crap. None of the cases presented have resonated with me at all. They havent been terrible crap, so bad that I still remember what I hated about them or felt the need to point out flaws, but they all seemed to lack solid foundation of actual scummy behavior.

What don't you like about my case against Seniors? Respond to my points in it rather than just discrediting it.

o, after all the hinting, does this boil down to: "We think TicTac/Flubber is Town b/c they neighborized us on N1 and they sound very Townie in the neighborhood?" b/c there's nothing about the role (as claimed) that makes it Town, and Tic's posting in this game thread is pretty medium. Also, if you were scum with a Neighborize, how would you use it? Don't you hit up someone in the Town you think you can get on their good side of? I'm not sure about your logic of "they wouldn't pick me if they were scum b/c they would be afraid I would see through them." And TicTac made himself bulletproof on N2 and no one died so maybe the vig. took a shot at him? Which is possible, but also doesn't say anything about TicTac's alignment. The fact they still have an investigate in their pocket also seems somewhat convenient. That would have been the first thing I shot off if I had those abilities.

You don't understand how newbies think. The rest of us know that you only need five completed games to be an IC and we think "five games? that's not that many. i was practically a newbie myself when i only had five completed games! oh man I was so dumb back then."

Newbies look up to the IC. They think "wow, this player is super experienced and in my last game they figured out that players were town when i couldn't see them as town and they figured out who the scum was when the scum tricked me and they're going to figure out this game too!!!" If they're town, they also think thoughts like "I really hope my IC isn't scum because they could trick me and I would never know it!" and if they're scum they think "oh no the IC is going to catch me they have x-ray vision I need to find some way to hide from them and make sure they don't look at me too carefully."

Newbie scum are often scared to even vote for the IC lest they attract the IC's attention. They don't want a private room with their IC with nothing to distract the ICs attention from themselves. They don't believe they can trick the experienced player. They might try to snuggle up to the IC, sure, and if tictac had opened the neighbourhood with HI LETS BE MASONS <3<3<3 then that would've been weird and gotten our hackles up for sure. But they didn't.

I just...don't see newbie scum who is scum for their first time deciding to get a neighbourhood with someone they believe to be a competent scumhunter and then displaying a mixture of paranoia that this player could be scum and hope that this player will help them get their footing in a game where they've bitten off too much for them to chew. I also think that the amount of effort shown in the neighbourhood is kind of wasted if they were scum since we're the only players to see it.

I just got out of a micro where there were 12 neighbourhoods and a masonry and a lot of the newer town players found it easier to express themselves in private. They were pretty uniformly lynchbaity in public, some of them barely managed to post anything in public at all, and then you got a neighbourhood with them and they turned into articulate, thoughtful town players.

Tictac wasn't town because of their role; roles aren't indicative of alignment. They were town because of how they played their role. Could I have underestimated them? Sure. But I don't think I did. Flubber hasn't done anything that would make me worry that I was wrong about tictac.

Also did everyone else miss the fact that the reason that FS is pushing Cerb out of their scumreads is that he is the scum not on their wagon b/c they were getting too much flack for OMGUSing. That isn't a towny reaction at all.

This makes a lot of sense.

@Dwlee in general

There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, dwlee.

@Marquis about Mirhawk regarding 4439

: okay i'm getting hungry and need to make lunch and my head is a bit foggy at the moment but I'll ISO Mirhawk in a bit. I'm worried about how quickly the FS wagon was dismantled and I feel like all of Day 4 is going to be FS vs TPP

again

and we only have 4 days and they're at L-6 again but I would like to have a map of Mirhawk; I've just been waiting for a good communication day. I just wanted you to know that I saw this post and that I want to give it the attention it deserves, but I've run out of attention for now.

pedit:

Later when I have time I'll go through various people's old scum PTs and see if they're crumbhunters or not. Maybe it'll lead somewhere, maybe it won't. (I successfully towncleared a bunch of people in The Odds based on this activity and then...I forgot about it in lylo because I was too sick to reread and voted wrong.)

Did this ever happen Ploti? My skin still crawls whenever I remember Marquis and you saying that identifying Lovers was a reason to scumread Skybird... before she flipped.

It wasn't as fruitful as I would've liked, but I also didn't have time to look into it in as much detail as I would've liked, but Cakez did a little bit of crumbhunting in Borderlands, Skybird did a tiny bit in Grand Idea but it was kind of weird because she had a PR read on only three players when it was grand idea and so pretty much everyone was a PR, and Seniors did a little bit of crumbhunting in Midsummernight's dream. Most players here don't seem to do any crumbhunting at all, or only pick up on stuff that falls into their laps; it's really weird. I think this is a dead end and that Marquis and I were just presuming too much competence.

Also, it doesn't make sense that Skybird would've claimed not to have any shots if she hadn't used her shot. If she had a shot left, she should've claimed to have a shot left and offered to let town direct the shot because she had a confirmable role and we've already had evidence that people believe that confirmable role = town (ala seniors). This means her target on night 1 could only have been Tammy, Spiffeh, or Snarky and of those Tammy is the only one that makes sense. I don't think a scumteam that kingmakers Tammy and shoots Spiffeh is a scumteam that knows that Tammy and Spiffeh are lovers.

[True Ogre]

If I understand Kingmaker correctly, if Skybird had had the opportunity to use it in MYLO/LYLO then scum win.

[True Ogre]

So saying the shot was used would have worked for scum if she could have avoided a lynch and ended up in that situation, potentially by acting like she was mislynch bait.

[Dwlee99]

yo @TPP
You said that you couldnt reveal info on tictac without oyting a bunch of prs. How do the other prs have to do with the soft you put on tictac?

[True Ogre]

I think this is a dead end and that Marquis and I were just presuming too much competence.

Crumbhunting as scum =/= competence, nor even correctness.
It's been my instinct to do it as scum, but to get it right... that takes something.

[True Ogre]

Where did that big burly hunkachunk Nacho go?
Everyone needs a slice of Nacho in their reads.
Even dramonic

[The Pied Piper]

If I understand Kingmaker correctly, if Skybird had had the opportunity to use it in MYLO/LYLO then scum win.

I guess it would depend on how the role worked. I am not the head that understand setup spec but in History, Errant had an ability that removed somebody's vote and it was explicitly only a night 1 and night 2 ability so that we couldn't use it in LYLO, but in Genesis mafia there was a 1-shot kingmaker ability (in town's hands) that could've been used in LYLO. Still, this requires that the player with the ability make it to LYLO and a player who is at L-1 on Day 2 is not likely to make it that far. If she had a shot left, optimal play would be to claim it so that she could live a bit longer because she wasn't going to make it to LYLO by getting lynched. I'm not sure it matters, though. We can't know what really happened. I usually imagine that lots of strategising is happening because that's what I'd be doing but in some of the games that I've modded the scum PT was like 1-2 pages with no discussion at all. Both heads of Seniors are pretty active in their PTs when they're scum (History, Cheetory, Butterfly, Midsummer Night's Dream) and so was Cerb in his PT as a third party antitown role in Saga.

I feel like this is one of those things that's exciting to speculate about but isn't actually going to get us any closer to any sort of solution. Do you disagree?

I think this is a dead end and that Marquis and I were just presuming too much competence.

Crumbhunting as scum =/= competence, nor even correctness.
It's been my instinct to do it as scum, but to get it right... that takes something.

I didn't look at QTs because I wanted recent stuff and I wanted to be able to use site search, but I'll read that one later maybe.

Perhaps everyone does it to some extent, but if none of it makes it into the PT, or if I look at the kills in the games they played in and they were mostly hitting VTs with their nightkill, or if I look at their PT and they aren't talking about looking for PR threats then I can't evaluate their ability to find PR threats.

yo @TPP
You said that you couldnt reveal info on tictac without oyting a bunch of prs. How do the other prs have to do with the soft you put on tictac?

There is not a single protown reason to ask or answer this question.

[True Ogre]

If I understand Kingmaker correctly, if Skybird had had the opportunity to use it in MYLO/LYLO then scum win.

I guess it would depend on how the role worked.

No.

[True Ogre]

Kingmaker is 1-shot, it says "nominated player decides lynch"

[The Pied Piper]

If I understand Kingmaker correctly, if Skybird had had the opportunity to use it in MYLO/LYLO then scum win.

I guess it would depend on how the role worked.

No.

Sometimes roles that affect voting have "except in LYLO" clauses built into them, sometimes they don't.