A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Dwlee99]

OGRE

[The Pied Piper]

TPP: okay, what would you consider the foundational post of your case against FS? Point me to to it, and I'll deconstruct it. Or I'll fail, and realize I'm an idiot who wasn't reading in depth enough. We shall see.

3809, especially the bit after the line break (the bit above it was more catchup on stuff they'd said since the last time i'd posted).

I'm literally stating which head I am addressing in the majority of cases so that seems fine; I do have a BoP on you two though and if Nacho's not around then I can't exactly read him now can I? And I've already said I can't read you

Are you? *skims through your ISO* I guess you are. Nacho tends to be around when I'm asleep unless I stay up late. His posting seems to happen more in the realm of 9?pm to 2am GMT, give or take, and he's around more on weekends.

So I guess your best bet if you want to talk to him in real time is, in your time zone, weekday mornings (when you're probably at work) or afternoon-evenings on the weekends. Does asynchronous communication work okay for you?

[dramonic]

Anyone who read 4590 and 4640 and still isn't voting TPP...
Sad.

[Dwlee99]

The posts are so long no one reads them. dank scum strategy tbh

[The Pied Piper]

Anyone who read 4590 and 4640 and still isn't voting TPP...
Sad.

In 4590 I was catching up on the game and then I got distracted yet again by Ogre and going around in circles with Ogre is antitown and antifun and I'm trying to find a way to stop doing it. 4640 is one such attempt.

[Cerberus v666]

Umm. 3809? Really? Okay..umm. I disagree? It's not the kind of case I can ever support. It has lots of supposition, like "it looks like they were trying to accomplish this" attached to things which could just as easily have been sincere questions. You say FS questioning itlepip about their reads/asking for detail on those reads is somehow contradictory if they were townreading Skybird, but...it isn't?? What's contradictory about asking someone about the reasoning behind their reads?

The rest of it is simply very handwavey. You point to specific things, but you don't outline things which I consider even remotely scummy. You say they don't act like town would by reevaluating things after having been proved wrong, and by simply continuing down the same path they were before even after seeing innos on people they expressed suspicion of...but...why does that matter? What makes it so very essentially that their OTHER reads they were pushing were CONTINGENT UPON the accuracy of those reads which were likely wrong? There is nothing to support that idea as far as i can tell, so there's no reason to expect them to go back and reassess their(for example) tictac read, in the context of town marquis/mala/davesaz.

[dramonic]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
yeah no you're scum.
That shitty little "but wait, there's more!~" attempt, that awful speculation based on vig requests, that mudslinging at people who actually see you're BSing, that appeasement aimed @TO, that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...
Please Plot, do you REALLY think I'm that stupid?

[The Pied Piper]

Umm. 3809? Really? Okay..umm. I disagree? It's not the kind of case I can ever support. It has lots of supposition, like "it looks like they were trying to accomplish this" attached to things which could just as easily have been sincere questions. You say FS questioning itlepip about their reads/asking for detail on those reads is somehow contradictory if they were townreading Skybird, but...it isn't?? What's contradictory about asking someone about the reasoning behind their reads?

The rest of it is simply very handwavey. You point to specific things, but you don't outline things which I consider even remotely scummy. You say they don't act like town would by reevaluating things after having been proved wrong, and by simply continuing down the same path they were before even after seeing innos on people they expressed suspicion of...but...why does that matter? What makes it so very essentially that their OTHER reads they were pushing were CONTINGENT UPON the accuracy of those reads which were likely wrong? There is nothing to support that idea as far as i can tell, so there's no reason to expect them to go back and reassess their(for example) tictac read, in the context of town marquis/mala/davesaz.

Because the game doesn't happen in vacuum. Suppose you have a hypothesis, that skybird is town. This hypothesis will mean that everytime you read a post by someone scumreading Skybird, you were wondering "are they pushing Skybird because they're scum trying to mislynch the lynchbait or are they pushing Skybird because they sincerely believe Skybird to be to scum." You aren't wondering "Are they bussing Skybird or are they town correct about their reads." This thinking colours your reading of all posts about Skybird whether you want it to or not because you believe that your opinions are right.

You are confronted with evidence that Skybird is scum: The mod posted Skybird's scum flip. As town, this means that you have information now that you didn't have the first time you read everybody else's posts about Skybird. Reading them again will help you spot people who knew all along that Skybird was scum.

When a townread flips scum, or a scumread flips town, it's evidence that the way you're approaching the game is off. You went wrong somewhere, made a mistake, probably made a lot of other assumptions predicated on that mistake and if you don't manually update those assumptions they're still going to exist and you're going to keep being wrong. When something surprising happens in a mafia game, town players go back and try to understand what happened, how they went wrong, how they can go right again in the future.

Seniors didn't do this. Time and time again they are faced with the knowledge that something is wrong with their approach to the game because their scumreads keep flipping town and their townread flipped scum, but they haven't re-evaluated, they haven't tried to figure out what that means, they keep parrotting that town will be lost without them, which is the sort of empty rhetoric that scum are more likely to resort to when they don't have another line of defence.


Seniors got irrationally upset with Marquis for townreading The Wrong Lynch. It is very common for scum to get irrationally upset when they are deprived of mislynches. In the micro I just got out of, scum were livid that I wouldn't let any town players get lynched because they looked scummy how dare I have an unshakeable meta based townread on a scummy looking player [95% confidence based on a sample size of 35 games]. It happened in the blitz game with my townread on phantomcobalt and in the odds with my townread on itlepip.

You say FS questioning itlepip about their reads/asking for detail on those reads is somehow contradictory if they were townreading Skybird, but...it isn't?? What's contradictory about asking someone about the reasoning behind their reads?

This was a minor point but itlepip said that the case on Skybird (who they were townreading) and me (who they were scumreading) was weak, and Seniors wanted to know why, and the tone they used was a tone of disapproval, so it sounded like they believed the case on Skybird was a strongcase, but they were townreading Skybird.

[The Pied Piper]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
yeah no you're scum.
That shitty little "but wait, there's more!~" attempt, that awful speculation based on vig requests, that mudslinging at people who actually see you're BSing, that appeasement aimed @TO, that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...
Please Plot, do you REALLY think I'm that stupid?

I don't know what "there's more" is referring to. Do you mean my promise to ISO Mirhawk? I will do that when I have time.

Dram, all I can really think of is a conversation we had back in July when we were talking about mafia theory and I said something about my playstyle -- I don't even remember what it was anymore -- and you said that if you were ever in a game with me that you would lynch me so hard and I said that you could try if you wanted to but likely wouldn't succeed, so when you started scumreading me I thought "well I guess he was right back in July" and that's about all the thought I've given it.

[dramonic]

No I'm referring to you saying you have MORE PR info just so we won't lynch your obvious ass.
Also good reply, ignore the post and say "you said you'd lynch me in the past!", 5/5 would read again.

[The Pied Piper]

Found it! I was wondering if I still agreed with my old self because it was newer back then. Turns out I still agree with the part you didn't like (my opinions on the rest are a bit more nuanced now).

I try to give them ways to de-escalate and ways to back out of the argument without losing face.

Don't play with me or you are getting lynched

really hard

.

[The Pied Piper]

No I'm referring to you saying you have MORE PR info just so we won't lynch your obvious ass.
Also good reply, ignore the post and say "you said you'd lynch me in the past!", 5/5 would read again.

I don't see why anyone would refrain from lynching me just because I've found more crumbs than I'm sharing. That makes no fucking sense. That post wasn't an argument for why I was town or why people should townread me or anything of the sort. The point of the post was somebody said that I was lying and tried to use social pressure to get me to reveal more information than I wanted to reveal and I was refusing to give way.

I have nothing to say about the rest of your post beyond "you don't seem to understand me very well but I don't think you're scum for it and I am glad that you have a found a way to communicate your thoughts." The "you said you'd lynch me in the past" part was because I thought that your complaints about my interactions with TO could be explained by that half remembered conversation we had back in July: there are things about my approach to the game that you find scummy and I suspect something about the way I interact TO is pinging you on that level.

I disagree that my speculation was awful. I haven't been mudslinging or BSing. I haven't asked people not to scumhunt us, I've asked them to stop talking about crumbs. I don't think you're stupid, just wrong. None of these thoughts of mine are particularly interesting, that's why I omitted them before.

[itlepip]

(before TPP caught my ogre lyncher soft)

[itlepip]

Oh yeah Mir where the fuck has your Cakez push been in the last few pages cause A). Cakez is obvTown B). You haven't done shit to push it.

[Friendless Seniors]

When a townread flips scum, or a scumread flips town, it's evidence that the way you're approaching the game is off. You went wrong somewhere, made a mistake, probably made a lot of other assumptions predicated on that mistake and if you don't manually update those assumptions they're still going to exist and you're going to keep being wrong. When something surprising happens in a mafia game, town players go back and try to understand what happened, how they went wrong, how they can go right again in the future.Seniors didn't do this. Time and time again they are faced with the knowledge that something is wrong with their approach to the game because their scumreads keep flipping town and their townread flipped scum, but they haven't re-evaluated, they haven't tried to figure out what that means, they keep parrotting that town will be lost without them, which is the sort of empty rhetoric that scum are more likely to resort to when they don't have another line of defence.

when did this happen

[itlepip]

Also Cakez, it'd be super cool if you didn't shoot me if you are the vig.

You never say this to your top scumread ftr. Mir is just outed, we have a few days before deadline, can we get him to claim yet and do final readlist thing and questions soon.

Pedit: in case you didn't notice Skybird flipped scum.

[Friendless Seniors]

for pretty bogus reasons

nothing in my frame of knowledge changes with skybird the lurker flipping scum

[itlepip]

Actually I agree with you on Sky, but not reevaluating after your counterwagon d1 flipped town which you called just scum super shittily is pretty scummy.

(wow google agrees that shittily is a word)

[The Pied Piper]

When a townread flips scum, or a scumread flips town, it's evidence that the way you're approaching the game is off. You went wrong somewhere, made a mistake, probably made a lot of other assumptions predicated on that mistake and if you don't manually update those assumptions they're still going to exist and you're going to keep being wrong. When something surprising happens in a mafia game, town players go back and try to understand what happened, how they went wrong, how they can go right again in the future.Seniors didn't do this. Time and time again they are faced with the knowledge that something is wrong with their approach to the game because their scumreads keep flipping town and their townread flipped scum, but they haven't re-evaluated, they haven't tried to figure out what that means, they keep parrotting that town will be lost without them, which is the sort of empty rhetoric that scum are more likely to resort to when they don't have another line of defence.

when did this happen

Ranger flipped town. Tammy flipped town. Pistachi0n was revealed as innocent child. Skybird flipped scum.

You were right about Spiffeh and Snarky. So that's [2/6] for things that mod has confirmed. Four flips that give you a sign to re-evaluate.

You were scumreading Marquis, davesaz, and Mala. Marquis has revealed innocents on the other two, and if you believe him then that's some more signs that something is wrong about your reads. If Marquis is town then you're at [2/9].

I'm not pointing this out to be mean, but I think that if you were town you would have already noticed it and would be trying to fix it. I think your towngame is better than this.


If you're asking when the "town will be lost without us" rhetoric happened then i'm referring to posts like 4376; there are many more similar posts in your ISO.

[itlepip]

On that note people don't forget that FS was a couterwagon to town d1

[Rob14]

Vote Count #3.9:

Mirhawk:

Marquis, SirCakez, podoboq, itlepip, Cerberus v666, Friendless Seniors (6)

Friendless Seniors:

The Pied Piper, pistachi0n, Flubbernugget (3)

The Pied Piper:

dramonic, Mirhawk, Dwlee99 (3)

Dwlee99:

Malakittens (1)

Not Voting:

Axelrod, davesaz, True Ogre

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-05-08 10:15:00)

[Dwlee99]

TPP's FS case is "optimally town would do this and they didnt do that" which is a bs reason to scumread someone and I believe is plot is as good as people make him out to be he would realize that. "Optimally town wouldnt lurk" doesnt mean that lurking is a scum tell? Your reasons are bullshit and you should know that, tpp.

[The Pied Piper]

You're accusing me of burden of profficiencying Friendless Seniors by saying that if they were town they would re-evaluate their reads based on new information? How little respect for their town game do you have?

[Dwlee99]

They are obviously town to me and yet you push them for BoP reasons which is shitty. This is the time of the year with finals happening (I have my first final for AP gov in two hours wish me luck!!) so obviously they wont be playing as well as they normally do (according to you, anyway).

[The Pied Piper]

I don't have children so I don't really pay attention to the school year, but I don't think that finals start in March and last until May?

I'm not attacking them for their behaviour this particular week or last particular week or whenever finals started. I'm attacking them for their play over this entire game.

Good luck on your exams!