A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Dwlee99]

Your case is talking about how they didnt reevaluate their reads after a skybird flip, skybird flipped recently

[The Pied Piper]

They should have also re-evaluated upon learning that Tammy, Ranger, and Pistachi0n were town. Those things happened less recently.

[Dwlee99]

theyre still town

[The Pied Piper]

Can you talk about some of your other reads because right now all I know that is that you're scumreading me and flubber, and townreading Seniors, and I have no idea what you think about anybody else.

[Dwlee99]

since when am I scum reading flubber? And ogre town, marquis town, dramonic town, cakez town

[SirCakez]

Everything is blending together ahhhhhh
I've been skimming a lot but the tl;dr looks like Dwlee still wants to murder TPP and TPP makes a lot of really long posts

Dwlee - do you often deathtunnel as town? Can you give me examples if so?

[The Pied Piper]

since when am I scum reading flubber? And ogre town, marquis town, dramonic town, cakez town

Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.
Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

Flubbernugget has replaced tictac.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're no longer scumreading flubber.

[Dwlee99]

since when am I scum reading flubber? And ogre town, marquis town, dramonic town, cakez town

Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.
Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

Flubbernugget has replaced tictac.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're no longer scumreading flubber.

that was like 1000 posts ago and since then flubber's posts have looked p good so I have moved the slot to null-townish
@Cakez, I do when I believe I caught scum.

[Dwlee99]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=64409
I did this game although I ended up being wrong.

[dramonic]

That shitty little "but wait, there's more!~" attempt

,

that awful speculation based on vig requests,

that mudslinging at people who actually see you're BSing

,

that appeasement aimed @TO

,

that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...

I'm not sure what that wizard stuff is about

This is part of why you don't understand what we were doing.

I do however still have problems with the "exaggeration" over how many PR's were on the line.

Nacho didn't out every single person that we have a PR read on. You pushing at this angle bothers me because the only way that we can prove we weren't exaggerating is to list the rest of them and that would be anti-town as hell.

Nacho was able to talk about it without saying everything but I wouldn't have been because I only have two modes: cryptic and verbose and I can't choose between them very well. The entire thing is a lot of threads tangled together in my head and I can't just pull one thread out and show it to you because of the way it is all interconnected.

I do however believe that any lying being done to other members of the town does have to be for some kind of tangible benefit. If you can't trust the word of other townies the game become exponentially more difficult for town.

It sounds like you think that we're town, and you know that we're not village idiots, and therefore it is not too much to ask for you to have extended some measure of trust towards us that even if you couldn't fully understand why we're doing something, we're doing it for good reason that will make sense in a day phase or two.

I

don't think everyone pushing us to reveal information that we hinted would be anti town to reveal is town, but a number of you must be town and it's baffling.

You know, by my reckoning Tictac should have used their investigation night two. I don't recall Tictac or Flubber ever saying they had used one. Did I miss this?

They were pretty obviously getting vigged night 2 so they needed to use their bulletproof shot instead to have a chance at surviving long enough to investigate. That's part of what we were doing on day 2 with implying that they were town in a way that could be construed as an inno: trying to prevent them from getting vigged.

Can we just lynch FS and cut all of...

this

*vague hand wave* short?

Yes, please.

which is fucking bogus

you know I'm town marquis

What is the scum motivation for removing Mala and davesaz from the mislynch pool? Who is Marquis scum together with that he's drowning in mislynches and can afford to do that?

Ugh.

If I am town, to your town perspective, lynching me today and dying leaves this town COMPLETELY DIRECTIONLESS.

VOTE: cerb

Fuck it. He has done nothing, and is completely and entirely coasting. TPP is probably scum but unlikely to get lynched. I'll deal with that in the future.

This tack kinda worked pretty well Day 1 when you were under pressure.
Nothing like successes of the past to inform future actions.

Funnily enough I'm not even in disagreement with you regarding Cerb atm.

As far as directionless though, that's just fearmongering pure and simple.

This.

I mean, simply put, the majority of what's been used as reasons to believe FS is scum, is crap. None of the cases presented have resonated with me at all. They havent been terrible crap, so bad that I still remember what I hated about them or felt the need to point out flaws, but they all seemed to lack solid foundation of actual scummy behavior.

What don't you like about my case against Seniors? Respond to my points in it rather than just discrediting it.

o, after all the hinting, does this boil down to: "We think TicTac/Flubber is Town b/c they neighborized us on N1 and they sound very Townie in the neighborhood?" b/c there's nothing about the role (as claimed) that makes it Town, and Tic's posting in this game thread is pretty medium. Also, if you were scum with a Neighborize, how would you use it? Don't you hit up someone in the Town you think you can get on their good side of? I'm not sure about your logic of "they wouldn't pick me if they were scum b/c they would be afraid I would see through them." And TicTac made himself bulletproof on N2 and no one died so maybe the vig. took a shot at him? Which is possible, but also doesn't say anything about TicTac's alignment. The fact they still have an investigate in their pocket also seems somewhat convenient. That would have been the first thing I shot off if I had those abilities.

You don't understand how newbies think. The rest of us know that you only need five completed games to be an IC and we think "five games? that's not that many. i was practically a newbie myself when i only had five completed games! oh man I was so dumb back then."

Newbies look up to the IC. They think "wow, this player is super experienced and in my last game they figured out that players were town when i couldn't see them as town and they figured out who the scum was when the scum tricked me and they're going to figure out this game too!!!" If they're town, they also think thoughts like "I really hope my IC isn't scum because they could trick me and I would never know it!" and if they're scum they think "oh no the IC is going to catch me they have x-ray vision I need to find some way to hide from them and make sure they don't look at me too carefully."

Newbie scum are often scared to even vote for the IC lest they attract the IC's attention. They don't want a private room with their IC with nothing to distract the ICs attention from themselves. They don't believe they can trick the experienced player. They might try to snuggle up to the IC, sure, and if tictac had opened the neighbourhood with HI LETS BE MASONS <3<3<3 then that would've been weird and gotten our hackles up for sure. But they didn't.

I just...don't see newbie scum who is scum for their first time deciding to get a neighbourhood with someone they believe to be a competent scumhunter and then displaying a mixture of paranoia that this player could be scum and hope that this player will help them get their footing in a game where they've bitten off too much for them to chew. I also think that the amount of effort shown in the neighbourhood is kind of wasted if they were scum since we're the only players to see it.

I just got out of a micro where there were 12 neighbourhoods and a masonry and a lot of the newer town players found it easier to express themselves in private. They were pretty uniformly lynchbaity in public, some of them barely managed to post anything in public at all, and then you got a neighbourhood with them and they turned into articulate, thoughtful town players.

Tictac wasn't town because of their role; roles aren't indicative of alignment. They were town because of how they played their role. Could I have underestimated them? Sure. But I don't think I did. Flubber hasn't done anything that would make me worry that I was wrong about tictac.

[...]

The entire other post would be BRIGHT PURPLE

[The Pied Piper]

Ah. Well now we know what you're thinking. That's helpful. Unfortunately, none of these things are scummy.

Blue: someone accused me of exaggerating when I wasn't.

Red: almost literally everybody was scumreading a slot that we believe to be town.

Green: people are pushing us to reveal more people's crumbs for no reason and are calling us scum for not doing it. there is no town reason for people to behave like this. some of the people who are pushing this distraction are doing it to derail the seniors wagon. other people are just being bad.

Purple: I am trying to get out of a TvT. Going around in circles with Ogre is apathy inducing for everyone involved and just fills the thread with useless noise. It is getting in the way of accomplishing what I want to accomplish, I'm not the head that Ogre can read anyway, nobody else cares about this argument between me and Ogre when I don't even understand what we're arguing about half the time.

Orange: Last orange I was saying

a newb

would think we were good players and making predictions about how

newbtown

would treat us vs how

newbscum

would treat us, including thinking that I'm a better player than I am. It happens whether the IC is a good player or not; i spectated the game ika ICed and the newbies responded to him in the manner I'm describing. I am well aware of my own shortcomings in mafia, but tictac isn't aware of them.

First orange: A person who looked up the game Nacho mentioned would understand what was meant by wizardry. It's not tremendously important.

Second orange: If you believe someone is town, and if they're not a village idiot, you give them some amount of trust to see where they're going with what they're doing. If you think they're scum or a village idiot, then you don't. If someone says "I'm in the middle of something", town players let them finished, scum players try to interrupt it so they can't finish what they were doing.


I am not going to reply to any more comments about crumbs because this is a stupid waste of time.

[Axelrod]

Still have very limited comp access. Looking like I may have a completely new computer this weekend.

I might have some availability during the day tomorrow though, so we'll see.

[Rob14]

Dram, don't use orange, that's my mod color.

[Friendless Seniors]

hello, ep here

i'll start rereading the whole thread so that if we do end up dying, you have a comprehensive understanding of where i'm at. i'll work on it for maybe 40 minutes right now and then more in a few hours, possibly.

i am uncomfortable with marquis being confirmed town because i feel like it's easy to play suboptimally as scum. shrug. because the suboptimal strategy is what people don't expect, which makes it better than what it is at face value. i do think that marquis is far more likely to be town, though.

[Friendless Seniors]

Dwlee replaces sakura, flubber replaces tictac, cerb replaces millar, itlepip replaces beeboy.
skybird flips scum
pist is mod-confirmed
marquis has innocents on TWL and dave. am i missing anything important?

let's do this

Spoiler: Pages 1-30, spoilered so you don't necessarily have to read them

I just remembered how much noise there was in the early stages of the game... urgh.

I don't like tictac's or Axel's entrances.
cakez entrance too... but i guess that might be just cakez doing his thing.

If mirhawk flips scum then I think axel is more town, though but this isn't anything set in stone.

I can see the pistachion comment from Mirhawk early game coming from scum who knows that pistachion is town. But I don't think it's scum exclusive- it could come from town doubting the miller claim from marquis. I will say though- a mirhawk scumflip is where I draw the line and clear marquis.

jesus christ i'm reading beeboy's posts and I can feel my blood pressure rising. Just need to push through this and then maybe we can get some common sense in here.

i fart into ziploc bags and keep them in the top drawer of my dresser.

cool

we should lynch tictac fast.

Axelrod's 538... yuck.

I thiiiiink a mirhawk scumflip makes TPP a bit more towny.

Early game interactions that I'm looking at are Axelrod/TPP/Mirhawk and I think that I'd divide teams into Mirhawk and TPP/Axel with TPP/Axel at least one scum if Mirhawk flips town, probably TPP.
Okay, I changed my mind. I actually think it might more likely be axel.

I am semi-confident in podo being town.

I'm just looking at the early mirhawk wagon, and I find it somewhat interesting that dave and TWL, the two checked people, are voting with Marquis there. Doesn't mean anything because the more recent marquis push came post copclaim, of course.

I think cakez can/should die too.

I like this point especially since it's about you.

This post smells bad, really bad

I'm at page 30 right now and here's where I'm at, disregarding a good chunk of the recent stuff because I am very much not caught up on claims and developments.

TPP: A lot of recent stuff has made me think scum, in addition to me not liking some of their stuff in the early game as well.
CAKEZ: I will meta this dude if I find sorting him to be super relevant. But I think disregarding meta, could be scum.
AXEL: I thought that entrance was weak in a vacuum. I think that it is very possible that alignment is opposite of Mirhawk's.
MIRHAWK: I'm leaning scum here, actually. Which makes me wonder about TPP.
DRAMONIC: Not a lot here but I don't see the scum argument.
DWLEE: Sakura was null.
FLUBBER: Tictac's entrance was weak.
CERB: Nothing yet, I think I need to do a reset on cerb's read. There's a lot from cerb that I just haven't read.
MALA: Town, and not just because of the Marq check.
ITLEPIP: From what I know, itlepip has been very unimpressive but beeboy is town.
TO: I still dislike early game, but I think town regardless.
DAVESAZ: Nothing convinces me he's town except for the marq check.
PODO: Entrance was weak but I think town regardless.

Mirhawk can get lynched today.
Lynch pool tomorrow as of page 30 if Mirhawk flips town for me would be {cakez/axel/flubber/TPP/maybe cerb}
and if mirhawk flips scum, which I'm thinking is likely, hen I'll have to do some hard thinking about TPP and axel.

[itlepip]

My play has been unimpressive but you think both of my top scum outside of yourself are probably scum?

[dramonic]

Dram, don't use orange, that's my mod color.

That's more of a light brown but okay :p

[Flubbernugget]

So I procrastinated

[itlepip]

VOTE: Flubber

[itlepip]

VOTE: Mirhawk I couldn't do it.

[davesaz]

Re: 4689 are you doing this merely because you were accused of not updating your reads?

[pistachi0n]

TPP, I don't agree with your analysis of how newbies play in 4590. Every newbie is different. In my newbie game, half the town was death-tunneling the IC at first because he did something we didn't like and we figured that if he was scum, he would be the hardest to get lynched.

I'm not sold on tictac being scum, but I don't think "newbies wouldn't play like this" is a good reason. I think you'd be a good neighbor choice for him no matter what his alignment.

[Friendless Seniors]

Re: 4689 are you doing this merely because you were accused of not updating your reads?

so you were just navelgazing when i said, multiple times, that i would eventually get around to reading the game in full, got it

My play has been unimpressive but you think both of my top scum outside of yourself are probably scum?

1. I haven't been paying attention to your reads.
2. I don't really see you driving the game state, which is fine. never said i wasn't townreading you, no need to ask for a medal dude

-EP

[davesaz]

Re: 4689 are you doing this merely because you were accused of not updating your reads?

so you were just navelgazing when i said, multiple times, that i would eventually get around to reading the game in full, got it

I found the timing interesting, seeing as it came right after TPP was pointing out that your reads haven't changed in the face of multiple flips.

[Friendless Seniors]

Guess you weren't paying attention to the other times that they accused us of doing that.
glad to know that I'm not the only poster that you're not paying attention to, i guess