A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Mirhawk]

sureish, I'm reading through so it might not be super right now, but It'll be soon.

[Friendless Seniors]

Whose early townreads on Cakez were you having trouble understanding?

Maybe I only looked at cakez from a surface level, but his play doesn't seem too far removed from how he usually plays. Which is the kind of stuff that gets him scumread

Mirhawk's dave scumread was his pet scumread for a while: do you think that it makes sense for him to swap votes onto Skybird if town?

I think i mentioned earlier that Mirhawk's vote progession made a decent amount of sense, when talking about the skybird vote later d1.

What was the later stuff that made you think Cakez/Axel might be town?

Don't quote me on this, but that was when I thought cakez/axel were actually engaging with the game in a way that made sense. I don't know about axel being town, but that sort of seems towny for cakez

Why do you think this?

because i think they're both town until i see the flips from some people i'd like to lynch more.

Moving on to your second post right now.

-EP

[Mirhawk]

To be honest, my flavor actually would imply that I'm a cop. But sadly I am not.

It seems pretty strange to me that scum!Mirhawk would be setting up the whole "my flavor doesn't align with my role" thing early and by that he meant "not a cop".

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

The reason why we didn't want to disclose why we were crumbing an innocent on tictac to Cakez is because explaining it outed both of them. The reason why people are complaining about us lying in the first place is because we said a "bunch of" PRs instead of "a couple PRs"; the motivation for doing so as scum is non-existent; the idea that people came up with is that we were crumbing to out PRs to make it less likely that people would want to lynch us or some dumb crap like that even though the difference in gain between saying a bunch of and a couple for scum is pretty much zero, which means either A) we're liars, B) our perception of "a bunch of" is different than yours, or C) we have another PR we are trying to avoid to out. The only thing that this magical exchange has proven to me is that certain people in the town either want everything or nothing; there's no use trying to explain this situation to everyone's satisfaction because no one actually gives a shit what I'm typing, and the only small benefit that could come out of our slot explaining further is being driven a little less crazy but that obviously isn't happening so there's no use in trying.

You say that our play is pretty "cut in dry" scum, and yet you've gone through no effort in explaining it. Can you explain why scum in our position would crumb the innocent on tictac Day 2 and then refuse to explain it? Can you explain why the motivation we would give for explaining it as scum was "out a bunch of PRs" when we could have pretty reasonably said that it would out two PRs as opposed to a bunch? You were pretending like we were a universal scumread with our backs against the wall throwing everything and the kitchen sink at everyone to avoid a lynch but WE WERE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY SCUMREAD. WE WERE NOT GETTING LYNCHED TODAY. The only reason there is even lynch pressure on us period is because of the claim situation that we got ourselves into if scum and had no motivation to get ourselves into if scum. People are lashing out and calling us "obvious scum" because of a situation that they don't understand and won't understand until everything's on the table, which isn't happening period.

I would call two things a couple, three a few, and more then that a bunch. The fact that you're allowing for other scenarios there is pretty definite in that even you don't believe thats what happened. I would go with A or C. In the case of A, you're scum, and in the case of C, why did you tell us in the first place? There was no reason to if you weren't willing to talk about it. Also I'd appreciate it if you stopped pretending that everyone was out to get your info. Nobody's asking for it. I've repeatedly said I don't care about it and that it isn't significant to my case.

Also I've said more than once what benefits scum would gain from this, If you think those aren't benefits then say why. You're acting like I'm accusing you of something totally unreasonable, when in fact it is quite reasonable.

When did I say you were in danger of being lynched. That is definitely not a thing I said. I'm pretty sure the only people really scumreading you when you crumbed Tictac were Dwlee and Seniors. After you crumbed Tictac you were catching flak, but not before. I haven't said anything about you being desperate or anything in that vein either.

Also being worried about outing Cakez is silly. I once spent an entire game listening to Titus repeatedly tell the vig what to do, it never made me think she was the vig. I don't think actual vigs spend all their time talking about vigs. Even if you did think Cakez was a vig it was still only a theory, and the way I view the information reveal on Tictac is that you never had to mention it at all.

[SirCakez]

Cakez, why are you townreading hiplop?

Claim + gut + feels like town games I've had with them in the past + they've been constantly pushed the whole game by various unsavory types

[Mirhawk]

Also, you keep saying trust me. But the thing is, I don't. I don't have any reason to either, you haven't been the townest player around this game. Obviously I'm not either, but I'm not telling everyone to listen to me just cuz.

[Mirhawk]

Oh and dram. Dram was pushing you too.

[Friendless Seniors]

My problem with compromising right now is that I feel like my reasons for your slot being scum are a lot stronger for my reasons for any other slot being town and I don't want to compromise and shuffle off to another lynch to face the same thing tomorrow because this game is not really fun for me or Plot at the moment. If I felt better about the game, if I didn't think that you guys were that strong of scumreads, then I'd be a hell of a lot more willing to compromise. Hell, even if hiplop just calmed the hell down and posted something that even seemed vaguely town, I'd be more willing to compromise.

I understand, 120% where you're coming from. This game has been a complete and utter slog since probably like page 4. But at least we're here talking to each other and I think thats going to help town in the long run, regardless of whether or not you're town or scum. And I think that this game is a shoe-in even if we have some missteps along the way.
But what you're doing in regards to our lynch is not helping town. I get that you don't want to face us tomorrow. But you are painting a picture that points to Axel scum, and here we are, agreeing with you.
Is it the fact that we're agreeing with you that you're becoming less confident in your axel scumread?

Axel in particular feels like a bad compromise target to me as well because he's someone I'm not confident in reading that well and he's someone who seems genuinely lost, and is someone who I think could look a lot better once he found his footing in the game. I also haven't really been reading this game that closely and don't have a lot of reads I feel confident enough to compromise on right now.

this definitely doesn't gel with what i'm getting from the other stuff that you're saying about axel. Not one bit.

If the hypothetical vig wasn't townreading both of us, I'd feel better in leaving it at that, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Yeah, I get what you're talking about. But I think that you and I both know that it's highly unlikely that both of us are going to make it to the endgame.

The only thing that I need from you is more stuff - I don't really need big walls, I just need you to dive in and think about what's going on in this game a little bit more. It's frustrating because I understand where you're coming from and I realize that it's incredibly difficult for you to post some things and somehow undo my read on hiplop, but I'm not really sure what other approach that we could take here.

My primary motivation this game has been survive to the next day, but I don't really feel that anymore. I still want to live so that we can push the lynches that we think need to get through. I think I'm better grounded with this game, though, and the way I envision this game going if we live is pretty similar to how I envision it going if we die. And us getting lynched or vigged is something that I can sort of accept, because I'm positive that there are a good amount of town that have their hearts set on us being scum and our townflip will get the town where it needs to go to kill the right people.

That was pretty much just a really long way of saying- I'm not posting in an attempt to undo your read on hiplop. I didn't ask you to engage me because of your read on us. I asked you to engage me because I want your perspective on my outlook on the game as it stands if you're town, and to hold you accountable to leave behind associatives if you turn out to be scum, as WIFOM-esque as they may be, because I am confident that you don't live to endgame as the game state stands. Does that make sense?

Although one thing that I've been wondering about - have you talked to hiplop about Mirhawk at all? Has hiplop talked to you about me specifically at all? What's been said there?

I honestly wish I had the luxury to talk to hiplop about everything like we did in Midsummer.
But we don't. We've been on the chopping block day after day and trying to reverse that while simultaneously figure out the game is something that I've pretty much done individually. It's not an excuse, i'm just saying that hiplop and I haven't connected as much as we have in midsummer, but I think that we have at least similar outlooks on the polarizing reads for today. We've barely talked in private since D1.

honestly, nacho- you know what it seems like to me?

And before I talk about it, know that I'm not accusing you of anything. It's no secret that I think that your slot has done some scummy things. But I want to keep this discussion reasonable and open. If you have a different interpretation about what you said, then by all means tell me.

It seems to me that you don't feel confident that we're going to get lynched. It feels like you're preparing for us to not get lynched. You'd be fine with compromising on someone you profess to not being able to read well if hiplop does something even remotely town. That's not the attitude of someone who is confident that we're going to get lynched or even get lynched and flip scum. You're telling me what to do to get you to townread me, which I guess is fine- I like it when people engage their scumreads- but it seems inconsistent with your actions this game. You're asking other people to vote us, you're asking why people are townreading us (presumably so you can attempt to change their minds). These actions are a person that wants us dead. That expects us to die. That has no contingency plan for when we don't die. And that isn't the mindset that you're portraying when you're engaging me. Does that make sense, nacho?

-EP

[Friendless Seniors]

sorry if that came off long-winded and confusing, i hope you understand where i'm coming from.

[pistachi0n]

Not voting piper or Mirhawk ftr

Why do you want a no lynch?

At least switch to FS.

[Mirhawk]

We must be remembering a pretty different Day 1 then because last time I checked, it was pretty difficult to classify Friendless Seniors as the "I don't give a shit" type from Day 1. What I do remember is hiplop refusing to do anything until beeboy left him alone, then I remember crappy attacks on Ranger, Amihan (for "faking too much" - remember when everyone thought Amihan's miller counterclaim looked pretty solidly town and hiplop went "nah guys she's faking too much"), shifting off Ranger to push an alternative tictac wagon even though they were very very confident on Ranger, and then nonsense nonsense nonsense. They are voting you because "they could be wrong" - this isn't why town people vote other people, this is how scum compromise on wagons they know will flip town so they can continue pretending that there's something behind the shit scumreads that they've been pushing and pushing and pushing - and for what reason? Why are Friendless Seniors pushing us again? Oh yeah, "pointless meta bullshit" - calls clumsy wagoning a scumtell from Plot based on Butterfly Mafia where Plot was uncharacteristically disengaged and frustrated and angry, calls us scum for SOFTING A GUILTY ON HIM TO GAIN SUPPORT which is a line of shit repulsive enough where even Dwlee, who has done nothing this game but single-mindedly push us, said "no, that doesn't make any sense", and has pushed us for the claim bullshit that everyone else has pushed.

No the bit I find town is the fact that he sat on snarky for ages for no apparent reason, while maintaining that he actually had a reason, while half the town was giving him shit for it. The rest of his day one is pretty null to me, throwing shitfits and having bad reads doesn't actually make you scum.

Also you guys have played way too many games together because that meta bullshit was definitely going both ways.

I don't remember this softing business. When did that happen?

[Mirhawk]

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.

Your dislike of meta is your dislike of his playstyle; this has absolutely nothing to do with his alignment and is a dislike that is not game-related. He didn't spend "most of Day 1 with his thumb up his butt doing nothing"; at the time, I thought a lot of it didn't really make sense, but saying that he wasn't doing anything at all is pretty much completely wrong if you make the effort to read his posts. If you'd like to disagree with this, go right ahead and I'll start happily dumping quotes as long as you need me to. Today, he's been reiterating his townreads on us/FS and scumreads on you/Axel. This is not really different from what every single player this game day has been doing; it's been a lazy as fuck game day where the only thing that seems to happen is people keep reiterating shit they already said, so Cakez isn't exactly some shiny amazing scumread that everyone are idiots for missing for doing something that everyone else has been doing all day.

My dislike of meta has nothing to do with his playstyle? The only reason I bring it up at all is because in previous game I witnessed him pushing his scumreads aggressively day one. Which is the polar opposite to this.

If you think not pushing his solid top scumread is how he plays then all the power to you. I'm not bothering to reiterate my case however when you could go and read any one of my DOZENS of posts I've already made on the topic on why he's scum. If you want to argue my stance on Cakez then dig up some of my old posts, I'll argue with you on those.

Why are you even asking me about this? Is this somehow relevant right now?

[Mirhawk]

What's your point in 5003?

All those dram posts are from half the game ago. I'm talking about his more recent posts obviously. Why bother going through his iso to find a choice selection of useless posts, I obviously wasn't talking about those.

[Mirhawk]

I kinda like 5011 and 5013 from Cerb. That kind of mindset feels town.

[Mirhawk]

I already explained it? I don't agree with it, but I CAN see how someone could get the wrong impression from a post that is essentially saying "yes, you don't understand what we're doing"

For the record this is not the impression that I got, I was assuming that he meant that I didn't have enough information to understand. The people who apparently have a problem with this aren't me.

[talah]

UNVOTE: Mirhawk
VOTE: Piper

Why do you keep unvoting Mirhawk? We have less than a day left.

I went back through his ISO after interacting with him and if he's scum he's doing a really good job of seeming like he's posting from a town mindset. I also think it's really weird he won't compromise on Seniors and I think dramonic said something which swayed me into thinking that makes more sense for town than scum.

Anyway, I'll be around toward deadline and around-ish today. (After a crap-ton of coffee)
You can probably just consider me a +1 vote on whatever wagon is leading for now. I'd have to think harder to make a decision and that's hurting atm.

[Mirhawk]

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

"Connected with the goings-on of the rest of the town". What game are you reading and can I replace into that one and out of this one? What has Dwlee done other than tunnel us this entire game? How has he shown awareness with what's going on with the rest of the town when he barely shows awareness with what's going on with us?

Yeah he's deathtunneling you, he's not looking for any other scum but he seems perfectly alright with talking with any player that tries to engage him. That seems town to me. Aside from the tunnel is there any reason you're scumreading him?

[Mirhawk]

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

Pip's first significant read was a scumread on tictac.
His first read's list had Axel as maybe town but maybe scum based on a specific tell, FS could be scum for ass backwards reads and was frustrating in general, didn't like you for your Ranger push, didn't like Podo for the 834 readslist, Sakura was ?, Tictac scum but improving, Skybird null. He had a theory that you and tictac were strongly connected. Attacked Podo in order to sheep dram (strong townread), read evolved to scumreading him for pushing a policy lynch. Started to read Podo as town (I think?), swapped to Axel. Switched to Skybird. Reread Skybird, thought she might be town, swapped to you. Reiterated case on Axel, continued pushing you.

Your characterization of Itle having you as "by far" his weakest read is either not reading or not understanding how fluid his scumreads were early game: he didn't have you as "the only one left" of the scumreads he could push; the only one that he got major pushback for was his Podo read. I don't even see where the Piper thing happened but I'd love for you to point it out to me.

That's how I remember it. He pushed his first read then backed down, then his second then backed down. He might not have pushed me immediately afterwards but it didn't seem that long. This is something I'd probably be willing to look up some other time, but not right now.

The piper bit was immediately after I posted my reads list.

[The Pied Piper]

I won't be able to respond to Mirhawk or EP right this second since I'm headed out but:

And that isn't the mindset that you're portraying when you're engaging me. Does that make sense, nacho?

It does because that's the mindset that I have when I'm responding to you. In you, I see a player who is in a similar place that I am and I don't want to compound on that feeling by shutting you out completely whereas every post hiplop makes is simultaneously aggravating, nonsensical, and scummy as shit. If hiplop is town, there's probably no way in hell that he'll be able to fix my read on him when all he does is pop up to push my buttons, but the way you're approaching me right now is really really appreciated from this end so I'm willing to try to take a step back and give your slot another chance, if that makes sense. I don't want to compromise right now but if you are willing to show me the view of the game that you're talking about then we're taking the right steps to move forward.

[Mirhawk]

I can address counterarguments, and I can explain why I agreed that Cakez is the vig. Do you want me to elaborate? Do you think that elaborating if I am correct is a good move? Do you think that I would say that I could provide more information if I couldn't, regardless of alignment?

Cakez shoots tictac and tictac doesn't die. If Tictac is scum, possible explanations: scum blocked Cakez because they thought he was the vig about to shoot tictac. Scum protected tictac because they thought he was a likely vig shot. Tictac is bulletproof to counter Cakez. If tictac is town, tictac is bulletproof. If I shot a strong scumread of mine and they didn't die, I would probably double my efforts in getting them lynched the next day too.

This is such a wifomy pointless thing to say. There's literally dozens of reasons for a player to survive a vig and most of them are not AI.

Also you wanted Cakesz in particular to not think Tictac was scum because he didn't die? I mean, if Cakez had shot him he obviously already thought he was scum. Why would you be worried about him thinking that harder because Tictac didn't die?

[talah]

UNVOTE: Mirhawk
VOTE: Piper

Cerb, what made you think that Ogre was townreading us?

Well I've been defending you a lot if that counts - or at least asking people who are saying that the claims business is scummy to explain how that makes sense as a play for scum.
So I guess you have had the better part of my faith. But I kind of agree that the events of today one way or another aren't going to be an enjoyable repeat event tomorrow.
Painful as it sounds for you to want to get involved - it's painful to experience from this end as well, and I don't really want to be a part of making this experience bad for either of you (and I'm significantly convinced that I'm probably doing that).

So. I'm just going to pull my finger out of my butt and just say you're a townread, and we can proceed forward for whatever overlapping time that's remaining in this thread, with minimal interaction except as far as it relates to discussing the play of others, and not your own.

I think it's better than the option of being pained about whether to just go ahead and support your lynch for whatever information it would gain and to progress the lines of conversation in this thread.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

(Aside: FE:A wasn't particularly special but then again I got scum-vigged night 1 so didn't have to deal with a lot of it. I read along. It was exciting though, for me, at that point in time.)

[Mirhawk]

Cerb, do you see why I'm townreading Mirhawk?

The fuck is this.

If you're townreading me why are you asking me all these pointless aggressive questions about my reads that have nothing to do with who's going to be lynched today?

[Mirhawk]

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

And what the fuck is he doing going from this to "IT'S NOT A 1V1 BETWEEN US! I KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ONE BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE SUBSTANTIAL READS HUEHUEHUEHUEHE"? Axel has 4 votes. I have 2. Dramonic would vote us, FS would move over, Mirhawk would move over, there's plenty of paranoia abounding on us from all angles. Why isn't he pushing us today when this is, again, the best opportunity to get us lynched?

Because he knows that if we 1v1, he will die, and he knows that there is no way in hell that we get mislynched after he flips scum.

Why would I move to Axel? If I'm not willing to move to seniors who I currently have as null, why would I move to Axel who I'm townreading?

[talah]

They're talking about moving to them, not Axel.

[Mirhawk]

VOTE: mirhawk

I was wrong once maybe wrong again

I'm just so tired of being ignored dram :\

we're right, but these people will NEVER listen.

and maybe pressure in this direction can help out

be sad.

I don't want him to die

It's blatant survivalism sure. Pretty lazy too. Why are you being so lazy in your attempt to stay alive FS??

Survivalist still isn't AI. :/

are you fucking kidding me?

seriously?

I push and push trying to gamesolve ALL FUCKING GAME WHILE BEING BACKED INTO A CORNER. PUSHING PEOPLE THAT AREN'T POPULAR

I FUCKING BANDWAGON ONE TIME AND YOU SAY THIS?!

YOURE THE ONE DOING NOTHING, CERB.

Also, you quoted what must be all of the LEAST relevant parts of Seniors push on me here. Seriously what the hell.

[Mirhawk]

They're talking about moving to them, not Axel.

That makes more sense.