[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[drmyshottyizsik]

There was a thread dedicated to Mafia role ideas. It has a cult leader role in it. Does anyone know where I can find this thread?

check our wiki

[drmyshottyizsik]

I'm about to mod a carbon 14 game and it got me thinking.

Carbon 14 and that thing, plus some nice dudes too

town

1 cop
1 seer
7 townies

scum 1

2 werewolf or mafia

scum 2

2 killless bullet proof werewolf or mafia

work like carbon 14 but two scum groups are chosen at random to be either mafia or werewolves.
scum can win together if they are the same faction but do not know who is in the other faction
weird quirk, if the night kill is mafia killing mafia or werewolves killing a werewolf they do die, they are getting stabbed in the back

[callforjudgement]

I have a suspicion that the 9:4 versions of the setup are much more scumsided than the 9:2:2 versions even though the scumteam doesn't have perfect information. (Also, the 9:2:2 versions clearly favour scumteam 1 over scumteam 2 except possibly when endgame screwiness is involved.)

[drmyshottyizsik]

I have a suspicion that the 9:4 versions of the setup are much more scumsided than the 9:2:2 versions even though the scumteam doesn't have perfect information. (Also, the 9:2:2 versions clearly favour scumteam 1 over scumteam 2 except possibly when endgame screwiness is involved.)

the trade off is that scum 2 are bullet proof

[callforjudgement]

So are scum 1. There aren't any roles in the setup that have the ability to kill them at night.

[drmyshottyizsik]

I have a suspicion that the 9:4 versions of the setup are much more scumsided than the 9:2:2 versions even though the scumteam doesn't have perfect information. (Also, the 9:2:2 versions clearly favour scumteam 1 over scumteam 2 except possibly when endgame screwiness is involved.)

the trade off is that scum 2 are bullet proof,

actually they should only be bullet proof from non same faction kills. so in the 9:4 set ups mafia can kill themselves on accident, but in the 9:2:2 set ups the kill less scum team can't be nkd

[drmyshottyizsik]

So are scum 1. There aren't any roles in the setup that have the ability to kill them at night.

if it is same scum killing same scum I'll call it being stabbed in the back so bullet proof won't mean shit

[callforjudgement]

I mean, in the 9:2:2 setup,

both

scumteams have equal NK immunity.

The kill-less scumteam has bulletproof, so it can't be killed by the other scumteam.
The scumteam with a kill doesn't have bulletproof, but they can't be killed by the other scumteam because the other scumteam don't have a kill, and there are no other killing roles in the setup that could kill them.

[drmyshottyizsik]

I mean, in the 9:2:2 setup,

both

scumteams have equal NK immunity.

The kill-less scumteam has bulletproof, so it can't be killed by the other scumteam.
The scumteam with a kill doesn't have bulletproof, but they can't be killed by the other scumteam because the other scumteam don't have a kill, and there are no other killing roles in the setup that could kill them.

hmmm true, so what if they both had a night kill, and kills worked like this:

[same factions]
scum shoots scum - scum dies

scum both shoot same town member - town dies and one who ever gave the kill order now knows that the other person who killed them is mafia(confirming it is a 9:4 set up for mafia, but only revealing one partner to each team)

scum shoot 2 different townies - two dead townies


[different factions]
scum shoots scum - no kill
both scum shoot same townie - town lives both scum die
scum shoot differnt town, two dead town.

also in order to win with the other scum team in 9:4 the person must survive to end game

[JasonWazza]

Snip

This way it seems town sided if different factions, and scum sided if the same faction.

If they accidently kill the same townie, they instantly know that either

A) they are opposing factions (known by the left member)
B) Know one partner of the other team, and need to switch killing member to try and give the most info.

In scenario A, both scum teams have basically fucked each other, but now know that they are both different, town has no knowledge that they shot each other (but can probably assume)

In Scenario B, your able to basically promote yourselves to a 4 man scum team, by making 2 smart kills on obvious targets.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Snip

This way it seems town sided if different factions, and scum sided if the same faction.

If they accidently kill the same townie, they instantly know that either

A) they are opposing factions (known by the left member)
B) Know one partner of the other team, and need to switch killing member to try and give the most info.

In scenario A, both scum teams have basically fucked each other, but now know that they are both different, town has no knowledge that they shot each other (but can probably assume)

In Scenario B, your able to basically promote yourselves to a 4 man scum team, by making 2 smart kills on obvious targets.

but with no day talk only one member of each scum group will know they are they same until the next night. also the two different factions have no way of knowing.

ALSO what if when they are the same faction there is only one kill, who ever sends it in first.

[JasonWazza]

but with no day talk only one member of each scum group will know they are they same until the next night. also the two different factions have no way of knowing.

ALSO what if when they are the same faction there is only one kill, who ever sends it in first.

With no day talk, it doesn't matter, both teams know that there was one kill, and that means that they know for certain that one of each team know the other team and can play with that knowledge.

and if there is one kill if the same faction, it will become obvious extremely quickly to both the scum faction and the town faction, that there is 1 scum team, and if the finder mechanic still exists, it can be played around as you will know for certain.

[Realeo]

Let's try this setup

Hunter gonna hunt

3 Town Vanilla

1 Normal Traitor

(know the mafia team but not the other way around. Endgamed if mafia is dead)

1 Mafia Goon with factional kill

If a

Town Vanilla

is lynched, he turned into

1 shot day vig

before lynched.

Town wins if Mafia Goon is killed

.

Mafia Goon and Traitor wins if all 3 TV is killed or nothing can prevent that.

Possible scenario:

1. Town lynched, shot Mafia Goon:

Town win

2. Traitor lynched: Proceed to d2
3. Town lynched, shot Normal Traitor:

Mafia

win
4. Mafia lynched:

Town

win
5. NL: It comes down to

Mafia Goon

kill

Deadline:
1st day: 14 IRL days
Day vig kill: 7 IRL days
Night: 48 IRL hours
2nd day: 10 IRL days

[JasonWazza]

That setup is kinda barely mafia as it is, and feels like it should be something played in a face to face/Marathon sort of setup more than a Mafia setup.

In fact i found the micro i was in that was like this but with actual mafia knowledge

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24594

Essentially the same but the GF knows the other member in that.

[Realeo]

and feels like it should be something played in a face to face/Marathon sort of setup more than a Mafia setup.

In fact i found the micro i was in that was like this but with actual mafia kn

Possibly.. I was inspired by Jungle of Bullshit

[shos]

Something very, very similar has already been done, I think.

[heuristically_alone]

Wild Wild West

6 Town Gunslingers

3 Mafia Goon with no factional kill

Mechanics:

-

Mafia

have no ability during night or day.
-Each night each

Town Gunslingers

must PM the mod the name of any player to whom they will give a gun.
-During day, each player via PM will be told they received X guns during the night (you can receive more than one).
-During the day, any player with a gun may PM the name of any player to mod for a one shot kill. There is a 50% chance the player's name will be revealed upon using gun.
-Any gun not used by end of day is disposed of.
-Lynches still occur every day

As for balance, it seems that the beginning the mafia have advantage, but as the game goes on it could start leaning towards town.

[Mizzytastic]

@Heurisitcally_alone - without having done any calculations it strikes me that there is a lot of room for PoE by having everyone say who they'll give a gun to, and people saying how many guns they got. There is probably an optimal strategy to it. Might need to hammer out what that strategy is to see how balanced the set up is.

I'm assuming it's they can't, but just checking, can a gunslinger give a gun to themselves?

I love the theming, but it strikes me as it might get changed a lot before it's balanced.

[Mizzytastic]

Actually this sounds really fun to work out

[JasonWazza]

@Heurisitcally_alone - without having done any calculations it strikes me that there is a lot of room for PoE by having everyone say who they'll give a gun to, and people saying how many guns they got. There is probably an optimal strategy to it. Might need to hammer out what that strategy is to see how balanced the set up is.

I'm assuming it's they can't, but just checking, can a gunslinger give a gun to themselves?

I love the theming, but it strikes me as it might get changed a lot before it's balanced.

Simple, Give a gun to the person below you on the player list, 3 people won't get guns, the person above them is a mafia member.

EDIT: And yes all 3 mafia members should have guns (optimally), however that is countered by the 3 townies with guns.

Order of events:
D1: NL
N1: guns to person below
D2: let's assume all mafia are on at the deadline and shoot all the townies with guns, we are now at a 3v3, but mafia don't control a majority of the vote, so the game should go to another night with a no lynch.
N2: townies know who to give guns to.
D3: GG.

[drmyshottyizsik]

mame the goons bandits and let them each pick a player. if that player got a gun the mafia steals it

[callforjudgement]

Something very, very similar has already been done, I think.

We Need A Fifth. Actually, it's the setup Jungle of Bullshit was based on.

[callforjudgement]

Simple, Give a gun to the person below you on the player list, 3 people won't get guns, the person above them is a mafia member.

Scum can cause confusion via claiming not to have received the guns either. I suspect the setup is still broken but it's less obvious.

For example, a pattern of TSTST, one possible outcome is for players 3, 4, and 5 to claim no gun, and player 2 to claim a gun. With TTSST, exactly the same sequence of claims could happen. With TTSTS, again the same sequence of claims is possible (and it has no scum in common with the first pattern!), although this would require scum nearby afterwards in order to prevent the sixth player giving it away. You also can't make people shoot to confirm that they have a gun; in each case, everyone claiming that they have a gun actually does (it's just that some people with guns falsely claimed not to receive them).

I actually think that the only playerlist pattern which actually 100% gives away the scum is TTSTTSTTS, but this is pretty unlikely to occur. You'd need a computer search to work out what the EV in terms of setup breaking is.

Other possibilities involve passing guns in other cyclic patterns, e.g. groups of three players swapping in a triangle. I suspect there's probably a broken combination somewhere, but currently am not sure where it is.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Wild Wild West

6 Town Gunslingers

2 Mafia Goon with no factional kill
1 Mafia Bandit

Mechanics:

-

Mafia

have no kill during the night.
-Each night each

Town Gunslingers

must PM the mod the name of any player to whom they will give a gun.
-They may not give anyone a gun if they choose, but cannot give a gun to themselves.
-During day, each player via PM will be told they received X guns during the night (you can receive more than one).
-During the day, any player with a gun may PM the name of any player to mod for a one shot kill. There is a 50% chance the player's name will be revealed upon using gun.
-Any gun not used by end of day is disposed of.
-Lynches still occur every day
-The Mafia Bandit will get all guns give to the person that he targets in the night, but regardless oh how many he steals, he can only use one of them.

[heuristically_alone]

Mafia bandit is a good idea. Also, I meant for the game to start with night, that way the players don't get a chance to discuss strategy yet on who to give guns to at first. I did mean to include that gunslingers can't give a gun to them-self, thanks for fixing that. How do people typically figure out the EV of games?