A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Mirhawk]

The second quote is just a scummy post.

Dream on.

[Mirhawk]

Nah, the play you're thinking of cerb would be to just say what happened from the get go instead of fucking around for 100 pages.

+1

[Mirhawk]

*sigh* I'm not going to waste any more time talking to you about this dwlee, because you don't actually seem to understand what happened or their explanations.

This is a terrible lazy opinion that shows a pretty fundamental disregard for the arguments from everyone who thinks they're scum.

If you understand what happened so well why don't you explain it.

[Mirhawk]

I could actually see a Mirhawk/TPP scumteam--TPP was a big driver of getting the wagon off Mirhawk and back on to FS.

No?

This might make sense from Piper's end, but from my end what exactly would I be doing, other then being the worst teammate possible? I've been hardpushing Piper since mid-yesterday.

I mean if you're willing to lynch Piper to find out I'm all game for that.

[Cerberus v666]

*sigh* I'm not going to waste any more time talking to you about this dwlee, because you don't actually seem to understand what happened or their explanations.

This is a terrible lazy opinion that shows a pretty fundamental disregard for the arguments from everyone who thinks they're scum.

If you understand what happened so well why don't you explain it.

Because it's been explained repeatedly, and if Dwlee chose to ignore the previous explanations, why should I waste my time repeating it?

Same with your responses to the cases against you. It all amounts to, every time: Oh, yeah, I changed my mind/got stronger scum reads. That's not compelling. Or convincing. At all. There's no need for me to bother with actually building a case of my own against you when others have already done so, particularly when you've addressed those cases in a fashion I find underwhelming.

[Mirhawk]

Because it's been explained repeatedly, and if Dwlee chose to ignore the previous explanations, why should I waste my time repeating it?

Same with your responses to the cases against you. It all amounts to, every time: Oh, yeah, I changed my mind/got stronger scum reads. That's not compelling. Or convincing. At all. There's no need for me to bother with actually building a case of my own against you when others have already done so, particularly when you've addressed those cases in a fashion I find underwhelming.

Hey, you did go back and check my original response to pips case. Good for you. So do you think I didn't actually change my mind, or that I didn't actually develop stronger reads? What's so underwhelming about my defense?

I'm absolutely am going to keep pushing you on this, because as far as I can see you're pushing me in the laziest way possible.

Also, no you absolutely should post you own damn reasoning for things. Town players should be able to back up everything they say, if you say that Piper's "explanation" is clear as day then you should absolutely be able to back it up.

[Mirhawk]

I have a result of significance. Prod dodging for now as I continue seeing more specific interactions develop.

Also, lol.

[Cerberus v666]

Because it's been explained repeatedly, and if Dwlee chose to ignore the previous explanations, why should I waste my time repeating it?

Same with your responses to the cases against you. It all amounts to, every time: Oh, yeah, I changed my mind/got stronger scum reads. That's not compelling. Or convincing. At all. There's no need for me to bother with actually building a case of my own against you when others have already done so, particularly when you've addressed those cases in a fashion I find underwhelming.

Hey, you did go back and check my original response to pips case. Good for you. So do you think I didn't actually change my mind, or that I didn't actually develop stronger reads? What's so underwhelming about my defense?

I'm absolutely am going to keep pushing you on this, because as far as I can see you're pushing me in the laziest way possible.

Also, no you absolutely should post you own damn reasoning for things. Town players should be able to back up everything they say, if you say that Piper's "explanation" is clear as day then you should absolutely be able to back it up.

I didn't go back and check, lol. I just remember things.

And yes, laziest way possible.

But I could have had you lynched 4 hours into the day, ESPECIALLY if I were scum, so don't try to posture as though you honestly think I am.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and it's not compelling because it's undocumented.

[Mirhawk]

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Also, what was undocumented? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I don't particularly feel that I was in serious danger of being quicklynched within four hours of the day starting for the record, and I feel that you claiming credit for me not being lynched is a little much.

[Cerberus v666]

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Also, what was undocumented? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I don't particularly feel that I was in serious danger of being quicklynched within four hours of the day starting for the record, and I feel that you claiming credit for me not being lynched is a little much.

It's underwhelming/not compelling because though you say you had these thoughts, at no point did you EXPLAIN the inconsistencies to the game at large before you were attacked for them. I think you're scum, and you never had reads, and you fucked up.

And, perhaps you're right, but, well...yesterday you had more than enough votes on you to lynch you today, and I believe only one of those slots died. One of the votes on you now wasn't on you then. There is, and was, clearly an overwhelming sentiment to get you lynched that could have been easily stoked into a quicklynch.

I think you're underestimating how many people would be quite content with a lynch on you today.

[Cerberus v666]

Dram, cause I'm bored. The bolded is where I express my positions on people, as far as they've developed at least

I read everything TO. I have very high standards for the analysis and thought I put into my reading though, and I'm simply not up to standard. I know what's been going on, but I haven't double checked anything or tried to go deeper, as it were, to see if I can spot any subtle, rather than overt, scumminess. I've put NO effort or thought into anything, except where directly confronted, so all my stances are based off first impressions and superficial reads.

The *only* time I ever claimed to not actually be up to date was this weekend.

The only 100% town slot in this game is pistachion. Others are varying degrees "least likely to be scum", but ya know she's the only one I'd save in your scenario..;p ofc, she's IC, so that's a cop out. If I had to save 2, it would be her and dave/mala/marquis. Some combination. Not impossible lbut highly improbable for marquis to be scum, which leaves the others as scum only if there is redirection or godfathers. Next you have yourself, and TPP. If I have to save more and more, that is. Fs is probably next, in their own little unique tier. Everybody else who isn't Axel, Mirhawk, or Dwlee, I have varying degrees of town-null reads on.

None of that changes the fact that I won't be voting for FS. I mean, I get that your point isn't to convince me to vote for FS, it is now that I'm scum (though I don't actually see how the post which prompted you to make that decision could have actually done so), but, just noting the fact.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, Mirhawk, you were also at L-2, with Axelrod actively around and talking, and he didn't take the opportunity to sheep the widely townread marquis on you.

Kinda weird right? I understand the need to not compromise his previously expressed reads, but...ya know...still. :/

[Mirhawk]

It's underwhelming/not compelling because though you say you had these thoughts, at no point did you EXPLAIN the inconsistencies to the game at large before you were attacked for them. I think you're scum, and you never had reads, and you fucked up.

And, perhaps you're right, but, well...yesterday you had more than enough votes on you to lynch you today, and I believe only one of those slots died. One of the votes on you now wasn't on you then. There is, and was, clearly an overwhelming sentiment to get you lynched that could have been easily stoked into a quicklynch.

I think you're underestimating how many people would be quite content with a lynch on you today.

I can explain approximately what I was thinking for pretty much every post I've made in this game. The assertion that I should make certain that every thing I think should be instantly spammed into the thread without prompting is silly. My current posting style is cluttering the shit out of the game and you think I'm not saying enough?

You're not holding anyone else to that standard, so how is it scummy if I don't do it. Also you realize how hypocritical this is right? Why am I having to push you for explanations for your read on me when apparently I'm scummy for not making my thoughts clear enough.

Again what exactly am I inconsistent about? You keep saying I am, and I keep asking you what about. I'm almost certain I've asked this question during day two and three as well, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer. You say I've clearly done fucked up, but you don't seem capable of pointing out what I've fucked up on.

Also I think you're overstating you will of town to have a quicklynch. The last votes on a wagon are the hardest, of the players in the game who was going to show up and decide "it's quickhammer time".

[Mirhawk]

Oh, Mirhawk, you were also at L-2, with Axelrod actively around and talking, and he didn't take the opportunity to sheep the widely townread marquis on you.

Kinda weird right? I understand the need to not compromise his previously expressed reads, but...ya know...still. :/

This is a stretch.

Its scummy for scum to not vote me when I'm listed as one of their townreads?

[drmyshottyizsik]

I'm not liking Cerberus at all.

FoS

[Mirhawk]

Oh geez, I just realized Dave was the watcher. Nevermind on those earlier implications that I thought Flubber was one.

[SirCakez]

TPP's sudden disappearance from the game thread is very very alarming. My townread there is dissipating combined with the FS town flip.
Still want Mirhawk for now though.

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah, well, someone thought "she looks so helpless and her body's saying hell yes" was remotely an acceptable thing to say in a fucking game thread so yeah i'm avoiding the game thread so as not to ruin everybody else's enjoyment until I calm down but I've been making ISO maps in my hydra PT and i'm about halfway done with Axel's ISO. Nacho's been pretty busy right now with Chicago meet coming up but he hopes to have time for this soon.

[itlepip]

Nvm Dram is town.

[The Pied Piper]

While I'm here, though:

Interesting wording you have there

Interesting how you aren't confirming/denying anything.

I didn't notice at first, but Axel was a ninja, hmm.

Also, did somebody not speculate about ninja's earlier in the game? I definitely have no desire to go back and look for it, but I seem to remember a conversation about that.

It was Ogre. There's a little "Search this topic" thingy up top, below where it says "A Musical Mafia! (Day 4)", to the right of the "Reply" button.

Spoiler: these 3 posts

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

My cop wouldn't give me your role name, just the musical you're in.

Ultimately I decided on you in an attempt to use the role to clear (or damn) you because you'd refused to claim flavour and you were unconfirmable by normal means. I had a few other ideas (ie Tammy, TWL, Piper) but decided this wasn't a role that was going to be used like a normal investigative. Had I gotten a result on you I would have crumbed it but not said anything. However given there was no result and there were two kills I thought that maybe you were an SK with a 1-shot ninja (thinking about that later I'm not sure if that actually works against a role cop) or that scum had some kind of protective effect. I just thought it really, really unlikely that I'd be roleblocked or jailkept given I hadn't crumbed anything and hadn't been playing like a PR.

Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

Not in a way that's going to wrap it up in a nice neat package for you, Cerb.

Also, since you asked so nicely, this is roughly where I am:

Mod-Confirmed Town: pistachion
Almost certain Town: Marquis, davesaz (based on result), Malakittens (based on result), podoboq (based on strong read)
Leaning Town: True Ogre, Mirhawk
Undecided: Pied Piper, Friendless Seniors, itlepip, Cereberus
Scummiest: Dramonic, SirCakez, TicTac (now replacement), Dwlee99

Undecided represents FS actually moving up from where I had him early on, itlepip is down from where I had Beeboy. Pied Piper is the one I feel most in need of re-reading, but I haven't found the time or energy to just do it yet. In scummiest, I've said everything I have to say about Draminoc. Pretty sure I've made my position on Cakez clear too. TicTac is also in need of a re-read, but I know there were several things I didn't like. Dwlee is just bugging me.

Thanks and I read the top half of your post as well. You're a fucking enigma to me right now. A scummy one, but I'm really not connecting with your processes so some of that might be my own predispoition to your play. I suppose... Do your thing? It'll make it easier for me to know where the hell you're coming from if you happen to be town.

Also I have role-based reasons to *tend* to think Piper's town. It's not strong, but it's another consideration for me. And if you haven't picked up on what my role is yet, then you're just going to have to wait till I die or until it becomes super-relevant.

First Question to you: Given your claim, what "role-based" reasons are making you think PP is Town? You didn't ever target him, and I don't believe he's claimed anything.

They crumbed flavour and locking that in so early I think would be disadvantageous for scum.

Okay. Well this is going to be fun because I'm late for work again so I imagine there's going to be a nice rush of activity. But it was you I was waiting on to say go ahead itle since I assumed you had some part in the results.

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

*sigh* have fun.

Second question: Did you by any chance inquire of the Mod. for any clarification on what would cause "no result". i.e. is this what the mod. would tell you if you were role-blocked (instead of just saying, for example, "you have been role-blocked.")

I didn't enquire as to that specifically because I think it'd be pretty rare that a blocking action of any kind gives the blockee that level of information.
I was thinking of asking whether a Ninja-kill would return a no-result but it's moot since it doesn't apply to pistachion anyway.

Things get a bit muddy if it's applied to my investigate on you and you happened to attempt ninja-kill and that also failed somehow. But I doubt that's what happened.

You can always ask Rob yourself if you think it's relevant. I'm sure he loves it. Each of my submits have been "Dear Diary" entries.

I had overlooked the possibility of a ninja and that could make both players town where I was thinking one had to be scum.
Though I wonder what made it enter your thoughts.

3802
8 tabs in Firefox is working fine for me.

[Flubbernugget]

Interesting wording you have there

Interesting how you aren't confirming/denying anything.

I didn't notice at first, but Axel was a ninja, hmm.

Also, did somebody not speculate about ninja's earlier in the game? I definitely have no desire to go back and look for it, but I seem to remember a conversation about that.

You know what? I was 100% sure you were going to dodge this question but you did by pushing the same way two other people did so you're probably going to get away with it

I haven't used my tracker yet

[Flubbernugget]

VOTE: Mirhawk

Think that's L-1

[itlepip]

Aww is my case not useful?

Geez. No, I am not seriously policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

+1

I'm also having trouble believing that all the people who are supporting Saks on this think its legit as well.

Want to include all interactions for completeness.

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

.

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

-snip-

Likes Mir a lot right now. Never really explains this read but holds it the entire game. Which he really doesn’t do with Cake.

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

Ew. Bad vote.

First, you were totally casting aspersions on me without voting for me, which, is a thing you can do - not every suspicion is worth a vote - but when you get challenged for it don't pretend it wasn't what you were doing either. Also, you totally did NOT make it "clear" that your read was "null." What you said was (in response to the challenge) that Mirhawk was leaving out a 3rd possibility that the behavior was "neutral" or you hadn't formed an opinion on it yet (which is two different things), without actually saying that this was, in fact, your position. How was this "clear"?
-snipy-

Either Axel spent the entire game trying to build a false association with Mir and Mir as town just happened to ignore Axel or they are just scum together.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:

My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.

I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.

I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.

p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?

Wee axel and Mir are missing even though they both have readable content at this point.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:
snip

Have you ISO'ed anyone yet?

I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players.

Fine. I will say that if scum Mir was always planning to bus sky to some extent. This push doesn’t really make sense at all though ‘spread out between groups of players’ is dumb.

I've finally caught most of the way up from the weekend.

Kind of like Tammy for a lot of the same reasons, particularly early enthusiasm. I slogged through the whole back and forth with Wrong Lynch, and basically came out of that more agreeing with Tammy than Wrong. I don't have a "scum" read on The Wrong Lynch, but he's sort of fallen back to Neutral.

Other people I like okay to this point: podoboq, Sir Cakes, Mirhawk. Which maybe deserves a bigger post, but I don't see the Mirhawk hate. I mean, I understand, but I don't agree.

People in the middle: Pistachi0n, Pied Piper, Tic Tac, TrueOgre, Sakura Hana, Skybird. The Miller claim is kind of null to me. If pistachi0n had done it before most of the people in the game had already posted it would have been a stronger play, but the delayed entrance made it a much less risky proposition as a scum gambit. and then he was away for another day after, and by the time he came back Ami was no longer even voting for him. He hasn't done enough of anything else to give me a strong feeling about him. TicTac I thought had a strong entrance, but then the rest of his posting has been kind of meh. Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all. Skybird hasn't done much of anything. I kind of liked Ami's point about him, so he might be more a leaning scum than a total null.

I feel like Spiffeh is going to be impossible to read as someone who essentially posts nothing but 1-liners. I so cannot do that. I don't actively dislike anything he's said so far though.

Dramonic is like Spiffeh but with less content and worse opinions. He's definitely possible to be scum. The other people I like the least are (still) Friendless Seniors, and Davesaz. I also do not like the lurkers - Swordworth and SnarkytheSnowman. But that's almost as much a principle thing as anything they have actually posted.

I know some people asked me some questions in there and I'll get back to those in just a bit.

Remember that Axel went through those hoops to defend Mir but now woo he’s null town. Doesn’t make much sense to me.

@Axelrod

Regarding 288, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Being 90% certain seems like hyperbole to me, but I agree that he seems sincere in his hyperbole. Are you still townreading Mirhawk?

Pretty much.

I liked all Mirhawk's early stuff. I thought his questioning of davesaz was right on the money. The flack he's getting right now is entirely based off his supposed illogical reaction to Ami's "counter-claim" but I don't have a problem with what he said. I mean, this is the "reaction" post:

See it clearly is a fairly strong townread even though he put Mir as nulltown before.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

Why are people that assosciate with each other necessarily the same alignment? This push seems fake to me.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know. For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh. I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. :( I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.

Why do you feel some people are associated together?

In case anyone's wondering, this is the only existing wagon which I'm comfortable with.

Every other one sucks. Except MAYBE pistachion.

.

Podo what do you think of skybird?

I really don't like the whole dropping his RVS vote 1000 posts into the game to start doing serious scumhunting, then the the first thing he does is ask Snarky (of all people) a question about something he said 1000 posts ago.

Too scummy to be scum is stupid, but I mean that's ridiculous.

It’s a semi-decent push on scum that wouldn’t have ever lived super long, take it as you will

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

eh

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

That's another thing, I don't really believe that.

You said you were doing ISO's four days ago, but I haven't seen any evidence of a person reading through ISO's since then.

Every single thing you mention in every post appears to be something that has happened within the last two or three pages, and its never concerning the same player consecutively.

The only thing I could believe is ISO related is your comment to Snarky. Which brings up the question of why did you start with him of all people.

I don't consider myself to be particularly good either. I'm cool with most players play so long as they're trying to have a good time. Doesn't mean I won't call random stuff scummy though.

WTF is starting with snarky scummy?

Mirhawk, in post 345 was a question to Sakura asking her thoughts on TWL and Dave. She responded to you immediately after in post 346. You say nothing in response. In post 878 you respond to Spiffeh calling TWL town with a no. Ten posts later you tell Spiffeh to quit townreading scum. If you are scum reading TWL why haven't you voted for them? Further, why aren't you pushing them?

p-edit: bad podo. :P

I am 100% okay with lynching Ranger to sort other people.

I'm looking to justify my Skybird read this way in fact.

Yeah wtf is lynching someone to sort other people…

The quick summary is Seniors claimed fruit vendor and Rangers L-1.

Included because this is the only Axel post Mir has in the last 1500 posts.

I got wigged last night. So there's seniors action.

I'm down with Pistachion and TWL.

I admittedly haven't spent a great deal of attention on Axel or Tictac.

Okay, so he admits he’s ignored Axel entirely (which he has and does contine to do).

Hrm, I read Tac's Iso.

Pretty lurky, but nothing stands out to me as particularly scummy.

What in particular looks scummy to you?

Reads tictac’s iso but never even tries to sort Axel, Axel just kinda sticks in the null-town category the whole game.

Curious, did you put that wig on your avatar yourself, or did the mod. actually provide you with that?

As awesome as it would be if Seniors had a role that forced people to change their avatar with wigged versions I must admit to doing it myself.

It just seemed like the right thing to do.

Omg 2 full interactions! And look how weak they are…

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Third Vote:

Mirhawk @ #1748. This is another case of the vote coming well after Mirhawk's issues with Ranger had already been laid out. As noted above, Mirhawk expressed dislike for Ranger as early as #1341. He was voting Skybird then, and stayed on Skybird at the time. I believe Mirhawk was also responding to Ranger's statement that the only two viable wagons were Mirhawk's and FS (which was clearly wrong). Mirhawk actually changed his vote to SirCakes prior to voting Ranger (during a time when there was maybe a tiny bit of momentum towards a Cakes wagon), but that didn't last very long, and I think the Cakes suspicion was/is justified anyway.

I've been mostly a Mirhawk fan this game and this isn't changing my opinion.

Fourth Vote

: Spiffeh @ #1830. Spiffeh was Town.

Basically Axel’s wagon analysis is everyone is varying degrees of scum except flipped town and Mirhawk.

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

True Ogre, I wanted to get back to you on this since I didn't get a chance to finish out.

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him. I did like post 879 from Mirhawk. That really reads town to me. I don't agree with calling FS town just because they are a fruit vendor which Mirhawk is basically doing. If I was a mod this would be a great scum role just because most people do read it as a town role. I also didn't like that Mirhawk didn't seem to give any consideration to those of us saying Ranger was town. Anyway, this is basically the argument I am having with myself about whether Mirhawk is town or scum.

‘this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, he might be town, this isn’t strong’. ;)

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Nvm he’s not even not strong potentially mafia, he’s town! Also why does Skybird feel the need to make this post?

2872

Yeah, Skybird never stopped being scum. I still support this.

.

I was going to make a joke about eating cake after chicken or something like that, but then I realized that was dumb.

I can play ball on this, other people are supporting this wagon now so I'm not as worried about it dying out overnight. Not to mention I'm having a hard time believing I can scrape five more votes up by the end of the day.

Unvote
Vote: Skybird

.

@Axel
For the record, I only scumread Cakes after I read his ISO.

I didn't do that until Spiffah asked me to vote for him.

But yeah I'll agree that that vote looks shitty.

Omg an interaction with actual content guys!

I finally looked at Cakez case on Mirhawk from #1774.

The short version is, it's not as bad as the case he did on TicTac. I don't agree that most of the stuff he was arguing is alignment indicative (Mirhawk's davesaz push, Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller claim/counter-claim), but opinions can differ.

I'm going to call slight misrep to say that Mirhawk only voted Ranger late after other people already voted her, implying he waited until there was more support for it. There was plenty of lead up to that vote and there was nothing suspicious about it.

On the other hand, I will give Cakez #1612 and #1700, which was when Mirhawk briefly jumped over to Cakez, as that one did look a bit opportunistic.

So, that's not really changing much of anything.

Some valid points but it doesn’t change anything cause I say so. Mir still town guyz

I was going to do my own thing on Skybird next, but since PP just did one, I might end up just checking to see if I agree with that or not.

Skybird is obviously dying here and scum is jumping on the wagon.

Mirhawk, one of the reasons you wanted to lynch Ranger was because Ranger thought I was town and defended me. You also said that you would use the Ranger flip to figure me out. (post 2305) Ranger flipped town. And yet, you are still scum reading me. I don't see the logic there. You pushed for a mislynch and now you are pushing for a second one.

Weak pushback on Mirhawk, lends credibility to the bus. This post doesn’t make any sense given that Sky just called Mir town. This isn’t how you interact with town reads and Sky didn’t make an update post about her mir read like she did before.

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

Do you even know why I'm voting Skybird?

The case was weak btw. The reason that wagon went over is that scum saw sky as a lost cause and went to bussing.

Skybird's D2 is a lot like her D1. I'm not going to post a whole thing on it. I support this.

Vote: Skybird

Unofficial Vote Count:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod (6)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, Dwlee99, dramonic, davesaz (4)
SirCakez: pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
Malakittens: True Ogre (1)

See

people are ignoring me and that is REALLY fucking suspicious

I'm not ignoring you. But I'm not going to vote PP just because you say so either. PP needs more going over than I've got time to give right now.

Axel what do you think about Mirhawk? The only thing in your ISO I can find about him is you addressing the case I made on him.

I am a Mirhawk fan, and have been for most of the game. I have zero interest in voting for him.

Okay so Axel is either trying to pocket Mir or again they are just scum blocking together. The reason I’m pretty sure that Mir is scum here is that as town you would actually interact with people you are townreading. Try to convince him earlier that Sky is the right lynch etc. and he never does any of those.

Yeah, I think the king gets the final say in any lynch or something like that. The wiki page is kinda unhelpful for this one. Not sure if Skybird's claim is too convenient or not. It would have been super conformable if it had targeted anyone other then Tammy, but its' still possible.

I've never actually seen a kingmaker role, but I can't think of any reason for there to not be one either.

Trying to see if people buy the claim. Also remember that scum in their eye had a confirmable role that they lost to a lover so the bus makes a lot of sense just coming from that perspective.

I'm down with a cakez lynch. (And yeah, here come all the post about me trying to save my neck.)

Cakez is the counterwagon to sky…

Here, I don't think I've actually posted anything on Skybird today.

She had no scumreads day one, so she said she was going to do iso's on everyone.

But the only one she ever did was Snarky of all people. He had like three posts. What was she expecting to find? Why ask him a question, he was never going to answer. She asked him for reasoning on his very first post too, that question couldn't have been more pointless. "Hey Snarky, I know you're not here and probably aren't reading the game. But when you do show up can you please explain this post you made on page four"?

I can see town with no reads deciding to read some iso's to get some. But the only one she did was the most useless player in the game. Even if you had limited time, why only do someone who will yield nothing?

She then apparently don't do any more looking until immediately after I ask you what happened to those iso's you were doing. She then asks a rather halfhearted question about my read on TWL. A line of questioning that she immediately abandons. The whole thing just doesn't strike me at all as someone who's actually looking for scum, but rather like you were trying to just look busy.

Weird to do the push after sky was already getting lynched.

Thematically speaking I don't think Kingmaker is that unlikely in a game about musicals.

Maaan I don't know now. It's kinda playable.

Are you guys sure we can't just lynch Cakez.

And then immediately goes to sky’s counterwagon… I mean changing reads at deadline is fine but literally just made the big case of sky and then you immediately about face and try to move to cake. Also town would have moved their vote here ftr.

I've been thinking that maybe scum would likely be in the people who agreed with Ranger's reads when she entered the game, as she pretty much destroyed Skybirds wagon.

This includes Cakez (conveniently for me) but I can't really remember who else.

This of course depends on Seniors alignment, I think they're town but can't prove it. They look a little worse on insisting on Skybirds innocence yesterday, but I can't remember if they were on the Skybird wagon day one or not.

I find myself thinking that Skybird really did use her kingmaker shot on Tammy. No way to prove it now of course, but otherwise she probably would have said she still had it. Which I suppose means that there's no way scum noticed the lovers connection day one. I don't think this has any importance other then the fact that it's both ironic and lucky for us, as if she still had it she might have been labeled as town.

I'm going to reread Skybird's stuff later when I have time. But that'll likely be after the day one wagon on skybird.

My guess is scum tried to kill Ogre last night as he hinted the fuck out of some kind of role, and that the Vig chose not to kill or was similarly interfered with. Shenanigans of some sort would have stopped at least one kill. There obviously isn't any advantage in discussing it, but I figure someone should at least acknowledge it.

@Cakez
I don't care if you push me now, you got stuff going on. My problem was with that stretch of day one. I'm probably going to cool my jets on this until I've reread a bunch of skybird related stuff anyways.

This actually makes it look better for Mir if he weren’t still voting Skybird even as he tries to save them.

I decided to look at Skybird wagon first:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod, pistachi0n, True Ogre, The Pied Piper, Dwlee99 (9)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, dramonic, davesaz (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
SirCakez: tictac, Skybird (2)

1st Vote

: Marquis at #2875. This is just a continuation vote from earlier push going back to D1. Marquis is Town, or Town has no Cop and we are going to lose.

2nd Vote

: podoboq at #2876. "Marquis is right," which isn't the greatest, but it looks like podo had Sky in at least his "top 3rd" list of suspicious people. He doesn't have his own case, but is basically barning Marquis and being fairly transparant about it. I've been reading podo strongly town most of the game.

3rd Vote

: malakittens at #3160. This is just a naked vote. In isolation, I would have said it could be a candidate for a possible Bus vote, but, malakittens/TWL has now been cop cleared, so, probably not.

4th Vote

: mirhawk at #3161. Not the greatest vote. Admittedly waggoning because he can't get momentum on his preferred lynch (Cakez). But he voted Skybird on D1 also, and never appeared to change his opinion on her. Mirhawk still looks okay.

5th Vote

: Me at #3398. I mean, do your own assessment. I reviewed her, didn't like her. Pretty much 'nuff said.

6th Vote

: pistachion (confirmed Town)

7th Vote

: True Ogre at #3468. Pretty much just a wagon vote as we approached deadline. Skybird was not Ogre's focus before this, it was mainly PP. He was "really skeptical" of a Skybird lynch as of #3325. The whole sequence is a little weird as it kind of reads like Ogre suspecting PP, to going along and following with him. (Note: PP was voting for Skybird before this, but will subsequently unvote, and then go back to voting which is why Ogre's vote comes first on this votecount). This one is another possible bus vote.

8th Vote

: PP at #3591 "I'm tired". As noted, PP was previously voting for Sky in #2877, but then unvoted in #3545. PP also did that huge "ISO Map" of Skybird's game activity in #3114, which looked like too much work for scum (though I've been told, not for him?). I don't know, the Unvote looks a little weird. PP talks about wanting to give Skybird "space" so Sky can give her reads, and it's all a little too earnest for me somehow.

9th Vote

: Dwlee99 at #3612. Naked hammer drop. Also a complete reversal from #3519, and #3553. Apparently his opinion changed very rapidly over the span of like 2 posts. This was also close to deadline. Still kind of eeeehhh. Dwlee is going to be a hard read for me with that style, but didn't love this.

If this isn't an all town wagon, the worst looking votes here are TrueOgre, PP and Dwlee.

Also noteworthy there were some other Skybird voters who left the wagon before the end - I believe Cakez and itlepip both were voting her at some point.

I haven't looked at the other people who were voting other people at the end yet.

Again just skips over mir and calls him town.

I want everyone to read 465 and 697 and tell me why Axel is conveniently not in the readlist after Sky defended him.

Also Dwlee stop being just wrong.

Pretty sure Skybird was trying to engage Dramonic, not defend Axel.

Yay my correct read and Mir defending scum.

I finally had a chance to dig into Marquis case on Mirhawk from 4439. And I'm not voting there.

The thing is, Marquis, most of what you're accusing Mirhawk of just isn't accurate. You're saying he's acting inconsistent with respect to his reads, but I don't see that. He had Skybird as a scum read from early on D1, and never came off that. The one post you quoted, where Mirhawk agrees (with FS) that your point against Skybird for unvoting after pistacion was mod-cleared wasn't really a point, doesn't change that. He can think that's not a valid point without it being a defense of Skybird and I didn't read it that way. It's more an expression of skepticism against you, which is something else he's been consistent on.

He also hasn't flipped-flopped on Cakez as far as I can tell. He's called Cakez scum for a long time and that hasn't changed. And I guess I'm more sympathetic than you are to the idea that he could lose enthusiasm for the vote when no one else seemed interested in voting the same way. I also don't read Mirhawk's post as him "immediately believing" TPP's claim about Cakez. I read it as "why would you say this (TPP) if what you are saying is true..." He's criticizing TPP (and not simply believing him). I also think the way TPP acted around that whole "reveal" was strange. The post asking Cakez not to vig him looked mostly like a joke.

Aside from that, I'm seeing suspicion for him not 100% accepting your claim at face value, which is kind of ehh. I think he's being overly paranoid, but the fact is, you

could

be pulling some kind of scum-gambit, and I don't think he's seriously arguing that, just reminding people of it. So, you can get on him for that, but he's not wrong. And I'm not sure what advantage he gets as scum in that spot. And his posts around your fake-miller claim, which I also don't find scummy.

There's just not that much there. And I agree with a lot more of Mirhawk's posts than I disagree with, which probably isn't true for most of the people in this game.

Axel spends a lot of time defending Mirhawk this game.

Frankly, I think everything you thought was suspicious about Mirhawk applies like 2x over to SirCakez.

Pushing away from Mir on to cake

This is all off the top of my head as I don't feel like looking anything up.

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

Friendless Seniors - Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.


Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

Mirhawk - Mirhawk strikes me as super frustrated in general in how despite repeatedly laying out solid cases on his scumreads, the cases he makes are universally ignored by most of town. Seriously screw all you guys.

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

Marquis - Marquis is probably town. There isn't really much else to say. I would still be tickled pink if he got rolecoped, as that would heave us with four confirmed townies instead of one. I also like his recent case on me. Don't get me wrong, it sucked tons, but it still makes him the only person on my wagon who is trying to provide any kind of reason as to why I should be lynched. It also means he actually is looking for scum. which a lot of other players aren't. I'm still moderately peeved with him for torpedoing two of my scumreads today, but it's for a good cause so it's fine I guess. Also after my flip it should be apparent that I TOTALLY CALLED THAT MILLER GAMBIT AND IN YOUR FACE EVERYONE WHO SAID I DIDN'T.

Flubbernugget - I didn't really have much of an opinion on Tictac, though I did think her posting made sense for a person who was apparently spending the entire game making catchup posts. Flubber is unfortunately exactly the same. I think his posting is townish and decent in general, but god I wish he would just catch up already.

Cerberus v666 - I'm mildly scumreading Cerberus though I'm not entirely sure why. I know I've seen a lot of posts from him that I don't really like very much, but he's just never seemed like an important enough read to spend any time getting a more concrete one. He's been pushing for my lynch for a really long time, but somehow despite that I still don't really understand why he thinks I'm scum. I know he's posted a couple cases on me, but I found them pretty weak and I'm seeming to remember that I poked them full of holes. Despite the pokes though he's never really seemed to think about anything I've said, and I don't particularly like how he's basically deathtunneled me for the whole game without doing much of anything else. So a mild scumread

Malakittens - I don't really have much to say about Mala other then the fact that I don't really like the way she's treated this game. I know she's really busy and all, but she's not even making a effort to say things like "Ill have more time this weekend", or "I am reading along but don't have much to say" or "I like the push on x, I'll vote with it". I'm not expecting her to make cases or anything, but I am expecting somewhat more involvement. This doesn't really matter as she's apparently cop cleared, but it still bugs me. The fact that my impression of her is that she isn't a bad player makes this even worse for me, I really do wish she was more involved.

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

pistachi0n - Pistachion is confirmed town, but isn't trying very hard to find scum.

True Ogre - True Ogre is easily the townist player in the game. He's engaging all the major wagons, he's looking for scum, and the points he brings up feel genuine, as in he actually want's to know the answers.

davesaz - Dave honestly needs to try harder. If he wasn't confirmed by Marquis I would seriously still be scumreading him. He isn't really doing anything that would help town at all. I have no idea what his reads are because he never pushes anyone, but rather has some wagons that he'll vote on because they aren't "too bad". He occasionally makes observations that I feel are pretty decent, but it's too bad he doesn't do anything with them.

podoboq - I have a mild townread on Podo. He makes some good posts, and some not so good posts, but no really bad ones. I feel like he is actually trying to look for scum which instantly elevates him above some of the other players in the game. I don't think I agree with all his reads, but whatever, he's fine.

Basically
Person-content
Person-content
Axel- nothing
Person-content
Person-IC
This is too easy.

eeh, I'm not really feeling axel.

Not feeling the wagon on the null read you haven’t sorted yet with 5000 posts :P

Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

This is really bad
There's no way you just have Axel as "sorta townish, nothing else to say"

And yet I do.

I think in four hundred posts I've directed like one of them to Axel.

But if you want to peruse my posts to see if there's something that indicates I have more thoughts on him be my guest.

Obviously missing the point. Having 5000 posts into a game and a null-town read with no analysis is really bad on a fairly active slot. Mirhawk has never this game given any real thought to Axel’s alignment.

Nah, I just don't see the will in town to change to a different target. Realistically speaking the other options are Axel, Piper, Seniors, and Cakez.

The Axel wagon is too new and simply doesn't have enough people who think he's scum, not to mention there's not really enough time for those that think he is scum to convince anyone else.

Piper had its heyday already. There's a few people who support it, but if there was any real amount of will for this wagon I would have found it days ago.

Seniors has been flirting with death all game, and I don't really see a whole bunch of people jumping back on them now.

There's actually at best only like four people who support a Cakez wagon, believe me I tried.

I'm going to flip town, but like you said I'm a VT so its not a huge loss.

Axel is not going to get lynched because his wagon is new. Also you’d think that Mirhawk would throw in “I think he’s town’ or something here but he doesn’t/

I've found scum and I've spent days throat stuffing. The problem is that nobody cares about the people I think are scum.

I don't think Axel is scum, and Hiplop's recent posts have been town as fuck so I'm not going there.

I've been arguing against shitty bullshit garbage cases on me all goddamn game. Apparently town is okay with lynching me despite there being NO FUCKING CASE ON ME AT ALL SO FUCK ALL THE TOWN WHO HAVEN'T BOTHERED EVEN ASKING ANYONE WHY THEY'RE VOTING ME.

What are you honestly expecting me to say here Ogre.

More have no read on Axel but its not scum.

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

And what the fuck is he doing going from this to "IT'S NOT A 1V1 BETWEEN US! I KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ONE BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE SUBSTANTIAL READS HUEHUEHUEHUEHE"? Axel has 4 votes. I have 2. Dramonic would vote us, FS would move over, Mirhawk would move over, there's plenty of paranoia abounding on us from all angles. Why isn't he pushing us today when this is, again, the best opportunity to get us lynched?

Because he knows that if we 1v1, he will die, and he knows that there is no way in hell that we get mislynched after he flips scum.

Why would I move to Axel? If I'm not willing to move to seniors who I currently have as null, why would I move to Axel who I'm townreading?

For what reason????

Unvote

Vote: Friendless Seniors

Better than Mirhawk.

Lolll

[dramonic]

Can we stop putting people at L-1 so early, especially considering MARQUIS CLAIMED INFO.