Mini 1770: College Mafia! (Game Ovah)

[ɀefiend]

The feeling when both the townie and the mafia ignore your big "thoughts out in the open" post...

I'm at like a 60/40 point right now.

Maybe you guys could try telling me why you're town instead of scraping up cases on each other at the last minute that didn't exist at all before toDay.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm town because I got a green role pm. I think it would help if you asked me more questions about things I did that you in particular find scummy or can't understand. Anything else I post pushing SirCakez or advocating for why I'm town is just gonna be exactly what I would also post if I were mafia here.

[ɀefiend]

What?

Are you claiming your scum game is so impeccable that you can effortlessly and perfectly replicate a townie post in Lylo? If you were scum, then you'd know that SirCakez is town and therefore there would have to be some portions of your attack/defense that are inherently contrived or deceptive.

NOBODY plays the exact same way as town and mafia and for you to insinuate that you would do so when asked to make arguments in 3p Lylo is very unsettling to me.

[GuiltyLion]

What argument are you asking me to make, exactly? If there's some magical townie post that would convince you of my alignment, what would stop scum!me from making it?

My point was that your 1900 asking "tell me why you're town" is a useless question. If anything, I would probably bullshit an answer much harder if I were scum. I personally think my efforts to game solve speak for themselves, but I'm happy to answer any and all questions about my play that you might have.

Again, tell me what you're missing and I'll try to help. Where do you see honest efforts to sort people in SirCakez's ISO? I made a post at some point yesterday describing why his play is scummy and I still think it fits, I'll dig it up for you.

[GuiltyLion]

GL, why the wakeup call on SirCakey?

I think zefiend/Nahdia are town

Therefore scumteam is in NH/massive/SC

I don't like how SirCakez is pushing you after townreading you in D2/D3. The read doesn't really seem like a natural progression to me. And I don't think generally he's been a proactive scumhunter this game. Instead of interacting with players directly, he seems to instead look at groups of people arguing and then arbitrarily picks someone in the group as scum. His scumread on me felt like it was a "you have the highest chance of getting lynched" scumread.

Do you agree with this assessment?

here

[GuiltyLion]

also ftr I think my scum game in lylo is pretty good, I won the past (and only) two LyLos I was in as scum (although both games were Newbies). So yes, I could fake a "why are you town" post if I needed to

[ɀefiend]

Basically, I'm at a point where my brain says SirCakez but my gut says GL.

I reread the game and I'm certain SC is scum up until yesterDay. Then I read yesterDay and everything in my gut tells me that it must be GL based on how they both acted yesterday.

The reason why my brain says SirCakez is
-the very bad connection to massive D1
- the fact that massive would probably bus to try to do anything helpful since he knew he was useless/likely to be on the chopping block anyway
- the fact that almost all of his reads and votes throughout the game have been seemingly conjured or based on very light, subjective reasoning
- his trajectory in this game follows no natural progression or intent to solve the game; rather, his votes and opinions seem to revolve around whatever is currently going on and he hasn't really produced any independent content

The reason why my gut says GL:
- large distance from massive all game. The notion that you started a big wagon on him is false. You naked voted him and then when the wagon started to blow up you said your vote was some kind of bait or trap, but didn't expound any further. That is not a convicted push like you are trying to suggest.
- in retrospect, you were very very wrong about NH whether you're town or mafia, and looking back on the arguments you had with him in a new light has made me very suspect of you. Since NH is conftown now, I can read his posts with the understanding that he's coming from a completely townie mindset. Most of your retorts to him are denial and counter tunneling. YOU as a townie weren't ever considering that he could be town until it became necessary for you to align your views that way.
- to build on that point, your focus for most of the game up to and including yesterDay has been NH. You barely scraped the surface on massive/SC partner which I called you out on and you still didn't give a concrete reply. If SC is town, then fypov all you have to do is remain adamant about NH and either he gets lynched or a NL happens, and you win. SC on the other hand actually considers switching to massive; transition to next point
- this still has yet to be explained; if SC is scum then he can just leave his vote on NH and guaranteed win the game. Because you were tunneling NH and never giving the impression of voting massive, a massive lynch wouldn't have happened from his pov. Any other lynch or NL wins SC the game. There is no reason for scum!SC to suggest pulling the votes together for massive when he knows town!GL is willing to vote town!NH.

EVEN IF you try to make the argument, "Well zefiend you refused to vote NH so his lynch wouldn't have happened, and it came to an impasse where deadline was approaching so the only logical lynch was massive," SC STILL brought up the notion of lynching him while YOU waffled about "not wanting to guess between SC and massive today."

- the way I see it, YOUR play is more indicative of being backed up against the wall with a partner who abandoned the game during Lylo (sorry btw) than being town and trying to make the best of a tough situation. Whereas if SC was scum, I don't think he would have been so brazenly switching his vote between NH and massive. He would have locked in NH and just stuck it out.

[ɀefiend]

GL you missed the point of the question entirely. Obviously just quoting a post and saying "here, this is why I'm town" renders my question pointless.

The point of the question is to see HOW people respond to the question, and HOW they shape the argument that they're town in conjunction with the posts they dig up.

You failed to do both. Thanks for ruining it.

[ɀefiend]

Both of you need to read that wall (and possibly the other wall) and soothe my concerns.

[GuiltyLion]

GL you missed the point of the question entirely. Obviously just quoting a post and saying "here, this is why I'm town" renders my question pointless.

The point of the question is to see HOW people respond to the question, and HOW they shape the argument that they're town in conjunction with the posts they dig up.

You failed to do both. Thanks for ruining it.

I'll get to your wall in a second, but this just makes me mad.

I'm town regardless of whether or not you can see it. Your question isn't designed in such a way so that town answers one way and scum answers another. If you want to get somewhere, case me and I'll tell you where you've made mistakes, because that's the best way to get you to see things correctly without polluting the thread with WIFOM. This is what you did with your other post that I'll respond to next.

I've seen scum win too many games by writing up a bunch of pandering crap in LYLO and spamming the thread with NAI arguments that only serve to confuse townies. That's how I myself have won before (see N1667, Bushfire). I will do what I can to show you I'm town, but part of that includes not stooping to distractions or meaningless walls that allows scum to thrive.

So no, I didn't *ruin* anything, you asked a useless question and are now arguing as if I'm scummy or somehow wrong for telling you that it's useless. I hope you can see why that's bad play. It's setting yourself up to be sucked up to

[ɀefiend]

Let me try to explain the rationale in a different way since I actually believe it is important and not bad play at all, contrary to your beliefs.
My question "show me you're town" is a reaction test. I'm not really interested in the game content you specifically pull, because as you stated that can be seen for myself and both alignments can easily post the same quotes.
I'm more interested in HOW you respond to the question in the sense that, you're right, scum may sometimes slip up by over explaining or give themselves away by pollution of WIFOM. On the other hand, genuine townies could reaffirm their positions by introducing new observations that were previously missed, or by correlating earlier things with current things that provides new insight. THAT type of analysis is very hard to fake as scum because 1) they're informed and 2) it is very very easy to call out bullshit if they try to fabricate an argument of that nature.

The fact that you didn't even TRY and instead are trying to have a strategy/theory debate with me is VERY peculiar. You failed the reaction test hard.

[GuiltyLion]

- his trajectory in this game follows no natural progression or intent to solve the game; rather, his votes and opinions seem to revolve around whatever is currently going on and he hasn't really produced any independent content

This is what I was saying, and why it should be obvious that SirCakez is scum.

The reason why my gut says GL:
- large distance from massive all game. The notion that you started a big wagon on him is false. You naked voted him and then when the wagon started to blow up you said your vote was some kind of bait or trap, but didn't expound any further. That is not a convicted push like you are trying to suggest.

It was not a convicted push because it was day 1. My naked vote was a bait to some degree - I like to naked vote my scumreads and see how people react to them. I have a history of doing this and can dig up some examples from past town games if you want.

I didn't leave the massive wagon until it completely died and he wasn't a viable lynch any more. While I didn't exactly post a thesis on why I was okay with lynching him, I also don't think it fits the play of someone presumably bussing their partner D1.

- in retrospect, you were very very wrong about NH whether you're town or mafia, and looking back on the arguments you had with him in a new light has made me very suspect of you. Since NH is conftown now, I can read his posts with the understanding that he's coming from a completely townie mindset. Most of your retorts to him are denial and counter tunneling. YOU as a townie weren't ever considering that he could be town until it became necessary for you to align your views that way.

I never knew that they were coming from a townie mindset either. What exactly looks bad about our interaction to you? Why are you reading it TvS instead of TvT?

I will fully admit to having a bad read on NH. you've already saved the game once by refusing to lynch there.

- to build on that point, your focus for most of the game up to and including yesterDay has been NH. You barely scraped the surface on massive/SC partner which I called you out on and you still didn't give a concrete reply. If SC is town, then fypov all you have to do is remain adamant about NH and either he gets lynched or a NL happens, and you win. SC on the other hand actually considers switching to massive; transition to next point
- this still has yet to be explained; if SC is scum then he can just leave his vote on NH and guaranteed win the game. Because you were tunneling NH and never giving the impression of voting massive, a massive lynch wouldn't have happened from his pov. Any other lynch or NL wins SC the game. There is no reason for scum!SC to suggest pulling the votes together for massive when he knows town!GL is willing to vote town!NH.

EVEN IF you try to make the argument, "Well zefiend you refused to vote NH so his lynch wouldn't have happened, and it came to an impasse where deadline was approaching so the only logical lynch was massive," SC STILL brought up the notion of lynching him while YOU waffled about "not wanting to guess between SC and massive today."

- the way I see it, YOUR play is more indicative of being backed up against the wall with a partner who abandoned the game during Lylo (sorry btw) than being town and trying to make the best of a tough situation. Whereas if SC was scum, I don't think he would have been so brazenly switching his vote between NH and massive. He would have locked in NH and just stuck it out.

Brazenly switching between two players in LYLO is not town play. I had a scumread I was willing to bet the game on, and I didn't move anywhere else. It was wrong, but being wrong is not the same as being scummy.

You say there's no reason for scum!SC to be willing to switch to massive, but I think this argument you are making is _exactly_ the reason for him to do that. If we lynched massive without SirCakez on the wagon, he knows he would have been absolutely sunk today. So he came into 5p LYLO with a crossbussing plan to give him an out if his NH lynch didn't go through.

[GuiltyLion]

The fact that you didn't even TRY and instead are trying to have a strategy/theory debate with me is VERY peculiar. You failed the reaction test hard.

Explain to me why peculiar = scummy. Why would a scum!GL argue this with you instead of pandering and doing what you wanted? My point here is clear - asking both players to cater to you only serves to benefit whoever pushes your buttons correctly.

If you test me and conclude that I'm scum, that's your test failing to make a correct read, and thus a fault of your play. But we can argue this postgame because you probably won't believe what I'm saying until you see conclusively that it's coming from a town POV.

[SirCakez]

The feeling when both the townie and the mafia ignore your big "thoughts out in the open" post...

I'm at like a 60/40 point right now.

Maybe you guys could try telling me why you're town instead of scraping up cases on each other at the last minute that didn't exist at all before toDay.

I responded to that wall tho, in 1891.

I'd say the main things that make me town are pushing the massive lynch over NH yesterday and bumping the game at 8 hours until deadline. I'm aware my play in the early days was terrible, especially day 1 where I nearly got mislynched. I think the two things I just mentioned make up for that though. As you've stated, I could have easily sat on NH and avoided massive until deadline. And bumping the game when it was completely dead so close to deadline would have been idiotic as scum as well. It would have been much easier to lurk out the game to deadline, like what scum did in Evolution Mafia recently.
Also if it helps here's some LyLo meta worth looking at for me

Scum game in 4p MyLo that I was lynched in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=65884
Town game in 4p MyLo that I was lynched in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594
Town game in 7p LyLo that I was lynched in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=64977

[SirCakez]

The reason why my brain says SirCakez is
-the very bad connection to massive D1

Yes I did fight the early wagon on massive, but I'd like to point out there's very little scum motivation in trying to stop a RVS wagon like that on a buddy. If anything, wagons like those are a good way to create distance. And I was on the later massive wagon that got to L-2 as well.

- the fact that massive would probably bus to try to do anything helpful since he knew he was useless/likely to be on the chopping block anyway

massive doesn't regularly bus for one, I modded a game that he was scum in and he avoided pushing his partners, at least from what I remember (was a month or so ago).

- the fact that almost all of his reads and votes throughout the game have been seemingly conjured or based on very light, subjective reasoning

I can't deny this. This is how I usually play though, and the role interactions discussion are mainly why I've been so out of it this game.

- his trajectory in this game follows no natural progression or intent to solve the game; rather, his votes and opinions seem to revolve around whatever is currently going on and he hasn't really produced any independent content

See above.

[ɀefiend]

GL, you said you voted massive to see how people reacted to it. Yet, your follow up to that strategy was virtually fruitless.

Your vote on massive being naked allows you to remain flexible as if you're his partner, you can bus with some added reasoning later on

On the other hand, SC puts massive at L-2 when he didn't really need to...

Your interactions with NH look bad because (ironically) you kept using the argument, "NH isn't even considering that we could be town, therefore he's scum," when it was actually YOU who literally NEVER considered that NH could be town. You just tunneled him all game while denying his efforts to sort you out. That is why I am leaning towards the interaction being TvS.

Precisely the fact that you were waging your whole game on your NH vote is why I disagree about the vote swapping thing. scum!GL only has three options to win the game yesterDay: 1) Lynch NH, 2) Lynch SC, or 3) NL. Lynching me was not an option to anyone. So you went with the most probable scenario, that SC misvotes NH and either massive sneaks on and hammers, or you persuade me to vote NH over NLing. i believe town!GL would have been more open to the idea of discussing who scum!NH's partner is, and yet you strayed away from debating SC/massive with me. Meanwhile, SC, while wrong about NH, at least entertains the idea of catching scum!NH's partner, by suggesting to vote and then voting massive. Furthermore, the fact that NH is confirmed town and engaged in repeated vote swapping does not bode well for your assertion that it's not something a townie would do.

[ɀefiend]

Oh and I missed the last point you made:

But we essentially lynched massive without you on the wagon, because I would have hammered massive anyway. So if you were technically "off the wagon," wouldn't this sink you too? Your vote on massive was inconsequential.

[ɀefiend]

Actually rereading your last point again, it's complete BS because the same argument can be applied to you: both scum!SC and scum!GL have the plan in mind to push a NH lynch because at least one townie is misreading them. The only difference is that SC might have had a contingency plan to bus massive, while you had no backup plan whatsoever. The contingency plan theory is still shattered by a point that has been repeatedly made; if SC just sticks to NH or otherwise does nothing to spur the massive lynch, he wins anyway.

[ɀefiend]

Explain to me why peculiar = scummy.

Why would a scum!GL argue this with you instead of pandering and doing what you wanted?

My point here is clear - asking both players to cater to you only serves to benefit whoever pushes your buttons correctly.

You begrudge my reaction test on the basis that scum can pollute with WIFOM, then you ask a blatant WIFOM question. Really?

[GuiltyLion]

Look, I get mad and bullheaded when someone calls me scum and I know I'm not. I tend to tunnel and scumread those people because I assume it has to be scum-driven since my towniness should be obvious. You're saying I'm scum just because I couldn't read NH correctly and that's not grounded in anything indicative.

Next, saying NH engaged in "vote swapping" similar to SC is incorrect - NH was a hydra posting multiple times from two separate people. Which "swaps" from NH were similar to SC randomly voting massive with 8 hours until deadline and then switching to a ML wagon as soon as my vote went on it?

[GuiltyLion]

Next, I don't really consider myself a part of a massive wagon. That was not at all a lynch I wanted yesterday, my vote was just to make sure there was

A

lynch because I didn't know if you'd be back to hammer. I don't know why you're acting like I'm trying to gain towncred from voting massive. Instead, I'm saying that SirCakez was fine pushing/driving a massive lynch because

he knew already that he was scum

. I didn't have that information which is why I didn't want to lynch outside of what I thought was obvious scum

[GuiltyLion]

Explain to me why peculiar = scummy.

Why would a scum!GL argue this with you instead of pandering and doing what you wanted?

My point here is clear - asking both players to cater to you only serves to benefit whoever pushes your buttons correctly.

You begrudge my reaction test on the basis that scum can pollute with WIFOM, then you ask a blatant WIFOM question. Really?

How is that WIFOM? I'm asking you to consider what scum motivation I would have for answering as I answered. You're saying it's strange and therefore it's scummy, but you're just completely wrong.

[GuiltyLion]

Also look at what SC said makes him town - the fact that he pushed massive and the fact that he posted with 8 hours to deadline. He's literally using the wagon to angle for towncred, as I am trying to show you!

[GuiltyLion]

DEADLINE SUDDENLY APPEARS 8 HOURS
VOTE: massive
I am more confident in this being scum then NH

Like, what about this reads to you like town pushing their scum suspect? This is an insurance vote. He moves to NH as soon as I showed up and we were in a crossvote

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: massive
If massive is town I'm gonna flip my shit not gonna lie

Also this is just fake