Open 635 - JK9++ (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

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instinct

[Frozen Angel]

not voting cakey yet.

I want to see whats people reaction to mhs catchup

[Thor665]

Its just I hate when people say hey I can't be scum with X becuase we fought so hard!

Did we or did we not fight in a way that suggests we're scumbuddies.
Then, take that one step further and recognize that Ranger is arguing that we're scumbuddies to the point of advancing a less logical lynch.
Then ask yourself why.
Why is this like pulling teeth all of a sudden?

about what I remember was "she voted Titus"

I need a recheck I suppose.

That should take like three minutes - what did you find?

[Frozen Angel]

Its a fucking wednesday

Have patience

And Its not about the fact that you didn't seem like scum buddies to me. Its the fact your the one who is telling that which always pisses me off. You have no right to read yourself. If your scum your just screwing my mind, if your town your view about yourself means nothing to me. so instead of trying to bring up one fight or another to prove your not assosciated with others I expect town to try to check others associations.

what about that is hard to apprehend for you?

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith wrote:
(using up a strongman on heartless or a role block on ranger night one is IMO odd by a mafia team of any stripe, even a Titus-X-X team that really doesn't want to shoot ranger for obvious reasons)
You forget that Postie claimed a block on me.
The only way scum need to have used a strongman or a roleblock is if Postie is scum.

Though, you also are unfamiliar with Heartless, I take it? They're the kind of player who scum might have strongmanned anyway.

Yeah I forgot about the JK claim. That makes the NK of Heartless questionable rather than ridiculous. I've played with an anti hydra before (with Plot instead of TTH), and I was quite impressed. That said, I wasn't SO impressed that it normally makes sense for the mafia to shoot him instead of PR hunt, much less blow a PR use on that effort, especially in a board with a number of quality players. There's a certain amount of WIFOM to all night actions, and avoiding a doc protect target makes some sense, but mafia basically HAS to effectively PR hunt to win. So for them to abdicate that on night on... I feel like that's sub-optimal, unless they're doing it to protect a fake claim (which at that point would be either Titus or Ranger, and in either event that means that RC is mafia).

In post 2913, mhsmith0 wrote:
I have another boring mechanical game setup question (related to 2766): if a bus driver flips RC's investigation, how does the result work? Say RC had investigated Titus last night, and there was a bus driver flipping Titus and I dunno Thor. Would RC receive a "Titus is vanilla" result, or would RC receive a "Thor is vanilla" result? It seems kinda weird and bastard for RC to receive a result of one player's role attached to another player's identity.

That would make a Godfather bastard (though, actually I agree with that thinking). No, the busdriver works the way it works.

That's not helpful. Then again...
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bus_Driver

There is no consensus as to whether investigative roles (i.e. Cops) that have their target changed by a Bus Driver are told that their target changed.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

Bus Drive: Once at night, you may switch two players. Any actions that was meant to affect one player, will now affect the other, and vice versa.

Given that this is supposed to be an OPEN setup with KNOWN rules...

@mod: if an investigative action is affected by bus driving, does the investigator know whether or not their target changed?

In post 2913, mhsmith0 wrote:
wrt reads, if Ranger is mafia, then my absolute hat off to her. To me she screams town throughout, and her "HEY EVERYONE TITUS'S CLAIM IS BULLSMURF I'M THE DOC EVEN IF I'M NOT SAYING IT" push on Titus felt completely legit. Presuming that the mafia would likely have hammered Thor by now if RC/Ranger/Thor was all town, that means that it's RC and/or Thor as the mafia.

You're actually describing my push on Titus yesterday - the catch is, for Titus/Postie to be scum Postie needs to have faked their crumbs, which I find even more unbelievable, Also, Titus/Postie as scum would require a real hail Mary of a roleblock choice N2.

I think it's the latter that disqualifies a Titus-Postie team more than the former. Though honestly I don't crumb or know how to evaluate the validity of crumbs so the first point is basically just a *shrug* from me.
I'll go back and re-read your yesterday Titus push. Although I'm guessing you'll dispute that you were obv!doc in your Titus push like Ranger read to me.

In post 2913, mhsmith0 wrote:
@Thor: Is your read of Ranger just that she sheeped RC's vote at this point? Or is there a larger read on her? You've been in the game long enough that I'd think there ought to be more to it than just a "oh I don't like this one vote" sort of thing. Ranger seems extremely town to me this game; what am I missing on her?

It's just the RC = scum logic for me. If either RC or Ranger is town, then I think this day ends soon enough and it won't matter.
That Ranger is sheeping a case that has been openly called and agreed upon as bad speaks volumes to me.
That Ranger's defense of it requires the claim that Thor/Titus/Postie might be a team (when I think Postie is strongly cleared by crumbs, and the massive buss happy derp of my first day just screams that I'm not aligned with either of them - draw your own conclusions though I suppose) continues to bother me. Ranger's stances there are paper thin - yet she's standing by them strongly. That reads like scum, not town who is potentially full of doubts.

That is the full extent of my case there.

If BOTH RC and Ranger are town (presuming you're also town) then the day would have ended by now. If it's, say, RC-Titus, then even Titus and the third buddy hopping on the wagon just makes it 4 votes, which is short of majority.

Can you clarify where the case has been "agreed upon as bad"? I just took another skim through and didn't see it. Who has agreed that the case is bad, and where did they agree that it was bad?

Also, are you saying you see Thor/Titus/Postie as a valid team given our slots interactions? I don't care if you want to call it me defending them, defending myself, or attacking a silly belief - the question is, do you see that as a scum team?

Based on slot interactions, yes, I think it's credible (it's one thing to dislike theater on principle, it's another thing to sub in when all three members of a team are under fire, with no day chat to help make a better plan). But based on night actions, I think a Titus-Postie team is ridiculous, so no on that front. OTOH I don't think I see anything disqualifying from say a Titus-Thor-RC group.

In post 2921, Frozen Angel wrote:
I still think Ranger is very obvious town becuase of her scream of the way she don't want to trust Titus claim sisce day 1 and That means Titus is just scum if 3 scums are not the other 3 vt's which none of them is making me feel warm about that their not today.

Yeah, odd how much Ranger screamed that...while not voting Titus. Ranger was pursuing the 3dice/mhsmith slot through most of Day 1 and also Day 2 prior to any JKer claim.

That may be a fair point. I'll look back into that.

Its just I hate when people say hey I can't be scum with X becuase we fought so hard!

Yep there is always the possibility for your fights to be a show. but anyway I feel mh is a more valid guess to be those two teammates.

Because I called a Titus-Postie team ridiculous given night actions, or something else?

Ok. Everyone's on record. Great. Let's lynch Cakey. No one townreads him and it forces scum to make a move to give us info.

At this point, I don't think we can lynch outside of RC-Thor (though no lynch may be possible too). If they weren't both mafia, we'd have almost certainly seen a hammer by now. I mean, I'll certainly entertain a case on Cakey, but I think that's something for D5 at this point.

[Frozen Angel]

becuase Titus is pushing a cakez lynch this hard and he fight they had with Thor last day , this will be poe'ed to you if their the scum team. unless Thor fight or this SC push is fake which was not my view when I read them the first time.

[mhsmith0]

becuase Titus is pushing a cakez lynch this hard and he fight they had with Thor last day , this will be poe'ed to you if their the scum team. unless Thor fight or this SC push is fake which was not my view when I read them the first time.

If the team is Titus-Postie-x then I just give up because that's to me completely ridiculous given night actions.

That said, just about all pushes in MYLO/LYLO are potentially theater, so I wouldn't disqualify Titus-Cakez at all at this point.

[Frozen Angel]

huh

[mhsmith0]

I'm not sure I believe scum!RC would fake a rolecop result on Thor before I got in here when there was a good chance Thor could have been my jailkeep target, being my top scumread and all.

That's (apparently) not how JK works. JK is combo roleblock and protect, NOT blocking the target from investigative night actions. So unless I'm mistaken about the rules, RC claiming a vanilla on Thor is null wrt RC's alignment.

[Postie]

That's (apparently) not how JK works. JK is combo roleblock and protect, NOT blocking the target from investigative night actions. So unless I'm mistaken about the rules, RC claiming a vanilla on Thor is null wrt RC's alignment.

I thought that the jailkept player would be untargetable by any actions, including incoming ones. Have I been misunderstanding how Jailkeeper works this whole time? D:

[mhsmith0]

That's (apparently) not how JK works. JK is combo roleblock and protect, NOT blocking the target from investigative night actions. So unless I'm mistaken about the rules, RC claiming a vanilla on Thor is null wrt RC's alignment.

I thought that the jailkept player would be untargetable by any actions, including incoming ones. Have I been misunderstanding how Jailkeeper works this whole time? D:

I think so.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

Each night, you may "jailkeep" a player in the game, which will simultaneously protect them from one nightkill and also roleblock them.

Nothing is said there about blocking from non-killing actions. OTOH, this is supposed to be an open setup, so I feel like any mechanical questions should be mod-answerable. Then again, it's my first "open" here, so... *shrugs*

[Postie]

But they're, like, in a jail!
I guess it's a jail that allows visitors.

[mhsmith0]

But they're, like, in a jail!
I guess it's a jail that allows visitors.

Basically it's this jail

[Frozen Angel]

people in jail are not commuted or anything. You can still see them , lol

[RadiantCowbells]

Titus, how are you townreading Mhsmith?

Like I can't fathom how you're townreading either of the occupants of that slot.

FA is pretty fucking obviously the town in the VTs.

[RadiantCowbells]

Thor's argument is that I'm scum because I made a play that he can't argue is the wrong decision but is instead arguing that I didn't in fact believe either that you were town or that he was scum even though I made both of those reads explicit in my earliest reads today.

Like, you think Cakez is scum, which I agree with FTR? What do you think is more likely, that I as his scumpartner have been hard defending him when I could have just bussed him and lynched Thor or whoever the next day or that his scumbuddies are pulling out a last ditch push to try and get me lynched?

Mhsmith even said that since there's a confirmed scum in Mhsmith/Thor/RC if there's no quickhammer: which, assuming Titus is town, was already confirmed:
But he's posting that without even having voted me. So you've complained about me deflecting from Cakez but I fully explained my townread; they're both hard defending Cakez while Thor has claimed that he's a 50/50 for scum in the VTs with FA (who is obvious town and if Thor were actually town he would have Cakez as confirmed scum based on FA's recent play) and Mh has said virtually nothing at all regarding Cakez.

He's also pushing on me for wanting to lynch Thor despite the VT result: like no shit why wouldn't I want to lynch Thor when he's this big of a scumfuck.
I'm tired. It's Cakez/Thor/Mhsmith. I'm ready to vote Cakez because their collective defense of him suggests that he's their JoAT and they specifically want him alive.

Like, everyone super townread me in the VTs and pushed on you. Then I made it clear that I was never voting you and all of the pressure jumped over to me.

That's not town play.

[Postie]

I'm ready to end the day. Pick one of Thor/Cakez and I'll vote them.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I have your vote for Thor tomorrow I'd rather lynch Cakez since it looks like he might be scum PR.

[Postie]

Works for me. Do we have any plans for night actions?

[mhsmith0]

Titus, how are you townreading Mhsmith?

Like I can't fathom how you're townreading either of the occupants of that slot.

FA is pretty fucking obviously the town in the VTs.

Can you give me the "MHS is mafia" case? If you "can't fathom how you're townreading either of the occupants of that slot" then I'd think there'd be a pretty clear and obvious case for why I'm mafia at this point (even without anything from 3dr). I'd like to hear it. As far as why I FOS'd you instead of voting you, it's MYLO and I'm legitimately worried about being wrong. Especially since I'm new to this game and absolutely could be missing something important. Can you explain how and why that would be AI?

Ditto the "FA is FA is pretty fucking obviously the town" case. Because from my perspective, if FA is town then you MUST be mafia (provided that it's not Titus-Postie, but I'm like 98% comfortable dismissing that as a possibility). FWIW I'm kinda null on FA right now; nothing screamed obv town or mafia from her slot from my first read.

@Thor: if RC is mafia, would he be as blatant about spewing his partner (in this case it'd be FA) during MYLO/LYLO as KAAG was in our newbie game together (and yes, that is a big on my end for missing it at the time)? I don't have much experience w/ RC, so I don't know his meta. My guess is that's a bit over-blatant, but again, I don't really know RC's meta.

@Titus/Ranger: Since at least one of you is actually a doc, you're both doc protecting Postie tonight if there's a red flip. If mafia wants to kill Postie they need to be forced to blow a PR to do it. I feel like this is the most obvious thing ever. If it's a green flip, it's probably game over so do whatever.

@Postie: Since you're kinda the obvious NK tonight (in the event of a red flip), please leave your thoughts on the thread before day ends. As far as night actions go, jail whoever. IMO there's more utility out of keeping your actions secret than trying to demand anything. I'd probably lean towards flipping a coin and jailing one of the doc claims, but that's just me.

[Frozen Angel]

meta is shit

RC has no meta

Play as unperdictable as you can is his meta

[Postie]

RC has no meta

Everyone has meta.

[Frozen Angel]

Not gonna read , reread , check or whatever I promised tonight.

I'm extremely exhausted now and I want to just eat , take a shower , and sleep

[Frozen Angel]

RC has no meta

Everyone has meta.

everyone are people.

[mhsmith0]

@RC: if you're mafia (and I'm like 80% sure you are), well played game. Solid job pocketing Postie and making it non-obvious whether your buddy is Ranger or Titus, much less who buddy #3 is. If it's you and Ranger then I'm especially impressed. Ramming through a (presumable) sweep like this... seriously. Awesome. I applaud it. And if I'm wrong and it actually is the three VT claims, then I guess we get to continue our discussion tomorrow.

PS I'm only voting RC or no lynch today, unless I see a much better case than I've seen so far. If we mislynch today, I'd presume the strongman kill happens tonight for the sweep.