New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 7:37 am

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 102, TehBrawlGuy wrote:The whole statistics discussion is stupid and doesn't read natural. Feels like a poor attempt at distancing to me, as does Ircher's "go vote shotty". VOTE: Ircher

Copper case has no real merit imo. Copper had no reason to unvote/vote anyone else, but also no reason to actually believe Ircher was more likely to be scum than anyone else at the time.
I think the whole statistics discussion is a pretty null read. Sounds like a scum trying to come up with a reason to vote someone and manipulative convince others it's scummy.

Scum lean for TehBrawlGuy
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 7:43 am

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 226, drmyshottyizsik wrote:
In post 222, Titus wrote:
In post 220, drmyshottyizsik wrote:
In post 216, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:
In post 214, drmyshottyizsik wrote:keep in mind those games were probably from 3-5 years ago.
only one of them is, but i work with what i got. doesn't make it any less valid, especially if it's something you aren't aware of.
You have a sample size of 1 town game and 2 scum games, plus an out dated game. Read as far into as you want, but if you go down this rabbit hole I want be here to pull you out of it.
Sample size is null. If you're looking for a genuine tell, older games are better. Like for anyone getting to know me as scum, I direct to games like Gundam Seed and Mini UDesign. If you see how a player structures an argument, it is not likely to change much.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
you did something in this game you haven't done in our current game so you must be scum.
From what I've seen, players quoting other games tend to be town. Would anyone agree or disagree?
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 7:45 am

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 259, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:ircher stats are funny

but not scummy
Agree, and because we are on the same train of thought, EspeciallyTheLies is probably town
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 7:50 am

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 232, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Well given that half the wagon on Ircher was driven by calling him scum for badly mangling statistics I can’t see this as valid at all. Why not anyone else. Brawl, who you are floating as Town, is just as guilty as Nos in my mind.
Ircher getting voted for statistics has been pretty valuable. In the future, we will probably be able to gain information from the votes on that exchange on scum and not scum.

Slight town lean Magna
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 7:52 am

Post by Ircher »

Hey Heur, I know Ive done single quoting like that before, but if you are going to make a lot of comments and quotes, it might be wiser to copy and paste them to another doc & have it all in the same post.
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:00 am

Post by copper223 »

@H_a
Disagree that quoting prior games is a town tell.
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:05 am

Post by heuristically_alone »

@Ircher, I normally do that when I know I have a lot to comment/reply to. I am having more to say then I initially realized. Thanks for the feedback
In post 341, copper223 wrote:@Egg
Saying you are 99.5% sure there is not showing confidence, it's either dumb overconfidence or scum theater
I would say that giving just under 100% is a fair analysis, because there is absolutely no way to be 100% certain. Scum lean on copper.
In post 349, zakk wrote:heuristically_alone - can never really accurately read this guy due to posting style. have played with him as both alignments that i can recall, can't really (be assed to try to) tell a difference in posting.
Then I must be doing something right :)
In post 349, zakk wrote:drmyshottyizsik - seems annoying and narcissistic mostly. doesn't seem particularly town or scum. would lynch, regardless. i keep seeing DGB, zito, and reck, with every post he makes. #51 is an odd post to make as scum (from 2010) though.
I know what you mean and was thinking along the same lines, though I'd prefer not to lynch as I'm seeing it a more slight town lean
In post 366, cytheflyguy wrote:I have read nothing and everything at the same time. Ircher seems most scum atm so I'll go with him for now

VOTE: Ircher
Your laziness has earned you scum points according to my scum points book

In post 388, Titus wrote:Read his two posts.
In post 389, zakk wrote:
In post 387, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:how is cy the top wagon with only 2 posts?
have you read the posts?
Both Titus and Zakk replied the same thing. I know this should be a null read, but I'm gut reading both Titus and Zakk as town for the moment.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: cytheflyguy
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:09 am

Post by alban »

Mod, replace me please.
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:10 am

Post by copper223 »

In post 406, heuristically_alone wrote:I would say that giving just under 100% is a fair analysis, because there is absolutely no way to be 100% certain. Scum lean on copper.
Really, so what % is your scumread on cythe at the moment?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:17 am

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Seeking a replacement for alban.
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:18 am

Post by Egg »

I'm not sure I consider the cythefly votes lazy. They have merit. Like his Ircher vote was definitely lazy, but only scummy if Ircher is town. So if you are townreading Ircher, I understand dropping your current vote to switch. Otherwise, you're in my boat where it stood out my I still think Ircher is scum so I stayed put.

So let's look at the people who voted cythefly:
Zakk -First vote on the wagon and was townreading Ircher. Just spoke about looking for lazy scum voting Ircher so this vote makes sense. I did just notice, however, that zakk's vote was on Ircher so I have to ask: What changed between the vote and your calling him town? It's possible this was an outdated vote and zakk was looking for a place to vote which makes the cythefly vote even more fitting. But why leave the Ircher vote for so long?

Titus - Titus hasn't been shy about townreading Ircher, so it makes sense for her to scum read such a lazy Ircher hop. I definitely get this vote

Projectmatt - Called Ircher town in his first vote. Acknowledged that part of the Thebrawl vote was pressure, so maybe that was getting stale. This one makes sense too. The only reason to call it scummy is because it follows the first two so immediately which is shaky reasoning at best

Seth- Even this one is fine. He asks questions and even says he'll unvote if he sees a good reason for cythefly's vote.

So overall, the wagon is fine in my opinion. The only thing I'm wondering is if these four votes are all town, why hasn't scum jumped on such an easy wagon? It very easily could be because cythefly is scum.

Preview edit: Heur's vote, I can go either way on. One question for Heur though. What is your read on Ircher? I don't really see anything in your ISO that answers that and that makes me think you could be his buddy considering how widely he's been discussed.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 8:23 am

Post by Egg »

The following heur posts look like a soft defense of Ircher, yet he never directly calls Ircher town: 400, 402, 403
^I missed this skimming his ISO. Also don't like his "must be doing something right" towards being hard to read. If you're town, don't you WANT people to be able to read you?
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:21 am

Post by Ircher »

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Shotty ISO May 21
1. - Asks Copper why he voted me -
I just cannot understand why Shotty asked Copper about his vote like that. One idea could be Shotty/Copper scum with Shotty distancing from Copper. Another option is Shotty is super paranoid about things, but I don't get that vibe from Shotty's later posts. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very odd and seems out of place. -
-1 Point


2. - Accuses me of defending Copper -
I don't understand this post really either. Copper's vote was obviously RVS and you did ask why. Granted, not addressed at me, but that would've been the answer almost anyone who did answer would have given, simply cuz that's a fact. -
-3 Points


3. - Buddying accusation at Copper and me -
Ok, start thinking Shotty. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a Copper/Ircher team at that moment was actually unlikely. Why would we as scummates have a real need to defend each other mutually when your scumread had no solid basis? Your analysis doesn't make the most sense & is full of bias. -
0 Points


4. - States general chit-chat happens *only* in General Discussion -
This has got to be one of the worst posts I've seen (maybe the worst) outside the newbie queue. Have you never seen players act friendly towards each other in RVS simply because they played before (or know each other in RL, but not the case here). That sort of stuff is general chit-chat and should be considered null 99/100 times. -
-5 Points


5. - Claims I'm dead -
Do tell me Shotty, why do you keep saying I'm dead when I'm clearly not. Once or twice might have been fine for RVS purposes, but continuing to push it for 10 pages is ridiculous and it seems like you are actually trying to use it as proof I'm scum. -
-1 Point


6. - "activity is, trust me. Also why are you so jolted if it doesn't matter? Town shouldn't get this excited, well I guess I did just kill you." -
What is this? Now you're trying to use stereotypes and "One-Size-Fits-All" arguments to advance your case. -
-3 Points


7. - Shotty's scumread on me @ this point is based on not playing exactly like previous games and the stat discussion. Also states Zakk is TPR -
Both of your arguments are null. Let's cover the statistics one first though -- Whether silly and/or stupid, the statistics is just null cuz town can be just as silly and/or stupid as scum can be. Now, the argument that I do not mention my # of town games in other games -- Not AI because 1) Metas change 2) I'm gonna bet that you looked only at 1 or 2 games, excluding the marathon games at the shelter and 3) The argument itself is not how meta works; you were looking for an exact, specific thing, but meta doesn't work that way. Playstyle/Personality is what meta should be used for, and looking to see what I exactly do or do not say about myself is too specific for meta purposes. Finally, your TPR comment - Why TPR? I would not be surprised if this game is multiball (as a large, it probably is), but what made you think TPR specificly and why are you even actively searching for one. You didn't even provide evidence. -
-5 Points


8. - Says I'm very easy to read -
Do you know how many times I've been mislynched as town cuz of playstyle? Countless number of times, and yet you are claiming I'm easy to read. Since you apparently did meta me, I want to ask what about my past games makes you think that argument is still valid. Anyone who actually looks and pays attn realizes it isn't that simple. -
-1 Point


9. - Easier to scumhunt not town than is scum -
No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Hunting for anti-town things is gonna make towns ML a ton of players who are newer and/or accidentally commit scumtells. Searching for evidence proving someone is scum is the correct way to go imo because its more foolproof. You try to analyze motive rather than just looking at words. -
0 Points


10. - Says Titus is changing definition of defend -
I might be biased here, but Titus is right. Defenses don't have to be direct, and in fact, there's a term for what Titus is accusing you of: Chainsawing - An indirect defense by targeting the player's attacker. Ok, on second thought, you're not chainsawing since I never attacked Copper, but you were still indirectly defending Copper by attacking me. -
-1 Point


11. - Claims (once again) I'm conf!scum without the guilty -
Ok, this is really annoying me, and you've yet to give a solid reason as to why you think there's a 97+% chance I'm scum. Please do, or stop claiming I'm conf!scum. -
-1 Point


12. - Defends Cythe by stating he's being lazy -
If it weren't for the rest of your iso, which might I mention has been 95% focused on me, yet never gave a single good reason why I'm scum, I would townread you for this post. But, considering the rest of your iso, this feels like a scumbuddy defense. -
-1 Point


Total Score: -22 points
Average Score: -1.83 (-22 / 12)
Final Score: -2.83 (Out of -6; includes bias score of -1)
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:24 am

Post by SirCakez »

Expediance replaces alban! Please welcome him.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:28 am

Post by Expedience »

Hello.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:37 am

Post by Expedience »

In post 29, copper223 wrote:
In post 22, drmyshottyizsik wrote:Laugh all you want, if he flips scum you're next.

Kill: Ircher
If you caught Ircher scum on page 1 I'll be happy to go next.
I was reading some post of this game, might have been Egg's one just above, I saw something about this post being town or something. I actually really dislike this post.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:39 am

Post by Ircher »

The reason why I think this either has multiple scumteams or an SK is because its a large & would run too slowly without some extra kills.

Current Speculations:

Shotty, Cythe - Mafia A
Copper, Zakk - Mafia B
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:49 am

Post by EspeciallyTheLies »

In post 412, Ircher wrote:
Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Shotty ISO May 21
1. - Asks Copper why he voted me -
I just cannot understand why Shotty asked Copper about his vote like that. One idea could be Shotty/Copper scum with Shotty distancing from Copper. Another option is Shotty is super paranoid about things, but I don't get that vibe from Shotty's later posts. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very odd and seems out of place. -
-1 Point


2. - Accuses me of defending Copper -
I don't understand this post really either. Copper's vote was obviously RVS and you did ask why. Granted, not addressed at me, but that would've been the answer almost anyone who did answer would have given, simply cuz that's a fact. -
-3 Points


3. - Buddying accusation at Copper and me -
Ok, start thinking Shotty. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a Copper/Ircher team at that moment was actually unlikely. Why would we as scummates have a real need to defend each other mutually when your scumread had no solid basis? Your analysis doesn't make the most sense & is full of bias. -
0 Points


4. - States general chit-chat happens *only* in General Discussion -
This has got to be one of the worst posts I've seen (maybe the worst) outside the newbie queue. Have you never seen players act friendly towards each other in RVS simply because they played before (or know each other in RL, but not the case here). That sort of stuff is general chit-chat and should be considered null 99/100 times. -
-5 Points


5. - Claims I'm dead -
Do tell me Shotty, why do you keep saying I'm dead when I'm clearly not. Once or twice might have been fine for RVS purposes, but continuing to push it for 10 pages is ridiculous and it seems like you are actually trying to use it as proof I'm scum. -
-1 Point


6. - "activity is, trust me. Also why are you so jolted if it doesn't matter? Town shouldn't get this excited, well I guess I did just kill you." -
What is this? Now you're trying to use stereotypes and "One-Size-Fits-All" arguments to advance your case. -
-3 Points


7. - Shotty's scumread on me @ this point is based on not playing exactly like previous games and the stat discussion. Also states Zakk is TPR -
Both of your arguments are null. Let's cover the statistics one first though -- Whether silly and/or stupid, the statistics is just null cuz town can be just as silly and/or stupid as scum can be. Now, the argument that I do not mention my # of town games in other games -- Not AI because 1) Metas change 2) I'm gonna bet that you looked only at 1 or 2 games, excluding the marathon games at the shelter and 3) The argument itself is not how meta works; you were looking for an exact, specific thing, but meta doesn't work that way. Playstyle/Personality is what meta should be used for, and looking to see what I exactly do or do not say about myself is too specific for meta purposes. Finally, your TPR comment - Why TPR? I would not be surprised if this game is multiball (as a large, it probably is), but what made you think TPR specificly and why are you even actively searching for one. You didn't even provide evidence. -
-5 Points


8. - Says I'm very easy to read -
Do you know how many times I've been mislynched as town cuz of playstyle? Countless number of times, and yet you are claiming I'm easy to read. Since you apparently did meta me, I want to ask what about my past games makes you think that argument is still valid. Anyone who actually looks and pays attn realizes it isn't that simple. -
-1 Point


9. - Easier to scumhunt not town than is scum -
No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Hunting for anti-town things is gonna make towns ML a ton of players who are newer and/or accidentally commit scumtells. Searching for evidence proving someone is scum is the correct way to go imo because its more foolproof. You try to analyze motive rather than just looking at words. -
0 Points


10. - Says Titus is changing definition of defend -
I might be biased here, but Titus is right. Defenses don't have to be direct, and in fact, there's a term for what Titus is accusing you of: Chainsawing - An indirect defense by targeting the player's attacker. Ok, on second thought, you're not chainsawing since I never attacked Copper, but you were still indirectly defending Copper by attacking me. -
-1 Point


11. - Claims (once again) I'm conf!scum without the guilty -
Ok, this is really annoying me, and you've yet to give a solid reason as to why you think there's a 97+% chance I'm scum. Please do, or stop claiming I'm conf!scum. -
-1 Point


12. - Defends Cythe by stating he's being lazy -
If it weren't for the rest of your iso, which might I mention has been 95% focused on me, yet never gave a single good reason why I'm scum, I would townread you for this post. But, considering the rest of your iso, this feels like a scumbuddy defense. -
-1 Point


Total Score: -22 points
Average Score: -1.83 (-22 / 12)
Final Score: -2.83 (Out of -6; includes bias score of -1)
lmfao wtf is this...
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:51 am

Post by Egg »

Expedience, that was probably Anen's post but can you explain why you don't like that from Copper?
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:52 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 417, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:
In post 412, Ircher wrote:
Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Shotty ISO May 21
1. - Asks Copper why he voted me -
I just cannot understand why Shotty asked Copper about his vote like that. One idea could be Shotty/Copper scum with Shotty distancing from Copper. Another option is Shotty is super paranoid about things, but I don't get that vibe from Shotty's later posts. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very odd and seems out of place. -
-1 Point


2. - Accuses me of defending Copper -
I don't understand this post really either. Copper's vote was obviously RVS and you did ask why. Granted, not addressed at me, but that would've been the answer almost anyone who did answer would have given, simply cuz that's a fact. -
-3 Points


3. - Buddying accusation at Copper and me -
Ok, start thinking Shotty. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a Copper/Ircher team at that moment was actually unlikely. Why would we as scummates have a real need to defend each other mutually when your scumread had no solid basis? Your analysis doesn't make the most sense & is full of bias. -
0 Points


4. - States general chit-chat happens *only* in General Discussion -
This has got to be one of the worst posts I've seen (maybe the worst) outside the newbie queue. Have you never seen players act friendly towards each other in RVS simply because they played before (or know each other in RL, but not the case here). That sort of stuff is general chit-chat and should be considered null 99/100 times. -
-5 Points


5. - Claims I'm dead -
Do tell me Shotty, why do you keep saying I'm dead when I'm clearly not. Once or twice might have been fine for RVS purposes, but continuing to push it for 10 pages is ridiculous and it seems like you are actually trying to use it as proof I'm scum. -
-1 Point


6. - "activity is, trust me. Also why are you so jolted if it doesn't matter? Town shouldn't get this excited, well I guess I did just kill you." -
What is this? Now you're trying to use stereotypes and "One-Size-Fits-All" arguments to advance your case. -
-3 Points


7. - Shotty's scumread on me @ this point is based on not playing exactly like previous games and the stat discussion. Also states Zakk is TPR -
Both of your arguments are null. Let's cover the statistics one first though -- Whether silly and/or stupid, the statistics is just null cuz town can be just as silly and/or stupid as scum can be. Now, the argument that I do not mention my # of town games in other games -- Not AI because 1) Metas change 2) I'm gonna bet that you looked only at 1 or 2 games, excluding the marathon games at the shelter and 3) The argument itself is not how meta works; you were looking for an exact, specific thing, but meta doesn't work that way. Playstyle/Personality is what meta should be used for, and looking to see what I exactly do or do not say about myself is too specific for meta purposes. Finally, your TPR comment - Why TPR? I would not be surprised if this game is multiball (as a large, it probably is), but what made you think TPR specificly and why are you even actively searching for one. You didn't even provide evidence. -
-5 Points


8. - Says I'm very easy to read -
Do you know how many times I've been mislynched as town cuz of playstyle? Countless number of times, and yet you are claiming I'm easy to read. Since you apparently did meta me, I want to ask what about my past games makes you think that argument is still valid. Anyone who actually looks and pays attn realizes it isn't that simple. -
-1 Point


9. - Easier to scumhunt not town than is scum -
No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Hunting for anti-town things is gonna make towns ML a ton of players who are newer and/or accidentally commit scumtells. Searching for evidence proving someone is scum is the correct way to go imo because its more foolproof. You try to analyze motive rather than just looking at words. -
0 Points


10. - Says Titus is changing definition of defend -
I might be biased here, but Titus is right. Defenses don't have to be direct, and in fact, there's a term for what Titus is accusing you of: Chainsawing - An indirect defense by targeting the player's attacker. Ok, on second thought, you're not chainsawing since I never attacked Copper, but you were still indirectly defending Copper by attacking me. -
-1 Point


11. - Claims (once again) I'm conf!scum without the guilty -
Ok, this is really annoying me, and you've yet to give a solid reason as to why you think there's a 97+% chance I'm scum. Please do, or stop claiming I'm conf!scum. -
-1 Point


12. - Defends Cythe by stating he's being lazy -
If it weren't for the rest of your iso, which might I mention has been 95% focused on me, yet never gave a single good reason why I'm scum, I would townread you for this post. But, considering the rest of your iso, this feels like a scumbuddy defense. -
-1 Point


Total Score: -22 points
Average Score: -1.83 (-22 / 12)
Final Score: -2.83 (Out of -6; includes bias score of -1)
lmfao wtf is this...
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"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:54 am

Post by Expedience »

In post 109, Killthestory wrote:
In post 103, Egg wrote:Drmy, what were you referncing with your first post?

Vote Ircher

For posts 11 and 12. I've never liked it when people stress that votes on them are RVS. And the post before it feels nervous about being voted while trying not to convey that.

Copper, which of Ircher's posts on Page 1 gave you the "sure of himself" vibe?

Ircher's OMGUS crusade against drmy is pretty bad.

I lost brain cells reading the probability discussion on Page 3.

I've got at least some level of a town read on drmy, copper, zakk, and Magna (in that order). That's as of the end of Page 3. Will say so if that changes.

Killthestory, you said you know your alignment now. What is it?

Acknowledging that an Ircher wagon exists. I'm gonna keep my vote there.
dont be dumb. any person with half a brain would say town. stupid fucking filler question
I don't ike this post either.
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 9:58 am

Post by Expedience »

In post 418, Egg wrote:Expedience, that was probably Anen's post but can you explain why you don't like that from Copper?
I didn't notice what Titus pointed out. It was too confident and seemed more about betting on Ircher being town than the read being too early, sort of. Like he knew Ircher was town.

Ircher might be town, not sure. Shotty is surely town.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 10:01 am

Post by cytheflyguy »

In post 406, heuristically_alone wrote:@Ircher, I normally do that when I know I have a lot to comment/reply to. I am having more to say then I initially realized. Thanks for the feedback
In post 341, copper223 wrote:@Egg
Saying you are 99.5% sure there is not showing confidence, it's either dumb overconfidence or scum theater
I would say that giving just under 100% is a fair analysis, because there is absolutely no way to be 100% certain. Scum lean on copper.
In post 349, zakk wrote:heuristically_alone - can never really accurately read this guy due to posting style. have played with him as both alignments that i can recall, can't really (be assed to try to) tell a difference in posting.
Then I must be doing something right :)
In post 349, zakk wrote:drmyshottyizsik - seems annoying and narcissistic mostly. doesn't seem particularly town or scum. would lynch, regardless. i keep seeing DGB, zito, and reck, with every post he makes. #51 is an odd post to make as scum (from 2010) though.
I know what you mean and was thinking along the same lines, though I'd prefer not to lynch as I'm seeing it a more slight town lean
In post 366, cytheflyguy wrote:I have read nothing and everything at the same time. Ircher seems most scum atm so I'll go with him for now

VOTE: Ircher
Your laziness has earned you scum points according to my scum points book

In post 388, Titus wrote:Read his two posts.
In post 389, zakk wrote:
In post 387, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:how is cy the top wagon with only 2 posts?
have you read the posts?
Both Titus and Zakk replied the same thing. I know this should be a null read, but I'm gut reading both Titus and Zakk as town for the moment.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: cytheflyguy
Lol nice. xD

Lynch me if you want. I can be more use later. Right now I'll just be a potato and see how the votes go (This is my first macro game, after all)
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 10:03 am

Post by Expedience »

Why can't you be of more use now?
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Sat May 21, 2016 10:05 am

Post by Expedience »

In post 122, Titus wrote:Ircher, kindly shut the fuck up. The more your case gets talked about, the more credence it appears to have although it's total garbage RVS. You know it. I know it. If you actually did the slightest thing scummy, I'd be all over it. You just haven't.

You realize how Copper has displayed
actual inconsistencies
and people are pushing awkard things you are saying because they don't like math. Get real.
Probably a town post.
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