Newbie 1714 (Game Over)

[Vandit24]

As an IC, I can't help but feel very guilty.
I kind-of feel like we've got a dual-newbie scumteam of {sad, Vandit}, which as a newbie is an absolutely

horrible

place to be. It really feels like they're both scum, who don't yet know what they're supposed to be doing.

And if I happen to be right about you two, preemptively, I have to say...sorry. <3

If I'm right, in postgame, I'll try to give you advice to play better, but for now, I would ask you not to quit even though you two are my main suspicions.

I...find myself not trusting this.
The appeal to pity feels...forced?
I can't put my finger on it, but something's off. It's like,

too

gushing or something.

So, here are my views on what'll happen:
1) Lynch sad1492:
If they flip scum, then I'll feel much better about ranger and sickofit.
If they flip town, however...beeboy can definitely be more trusted and first place I'm pointing fingers is a ranger+sickofit scumteam.
2) Lynch sickofit-This is my ideal situation, as I think we'll get more 'mixed' or changing reaction out of this lynch; lynching sad is just that: a lynch. Unless sad claims for themself, their partner is highly unlikely to try and pull them out as it's very suspicious. Sickofit is a bit shakier and more discreet, and will be better for the discussion. Predictions on sick lynch:
If they flip scum, there are multiple people (ranger, apparently vandit, sad could still be scum, etc.) who could be their partners, but we'll have leads to start our investigation from the mess before the actual lynch.
If they flip town, then it'll completely change who I'm looking for. Ranger can be more trusted, and sad is gonna look more scummy for pushing sick and opposing them. Granted, it's mostly been me, but look at Sick's iso for yourself. It looks a lot like someone who's trying to fit in with whatever's going on at the time-without actually contributing anything.
3) Lynch Ranger-right now this is the riskiest one, because if they flip town we're in big trouble because we lost one of the main contributors to the discussions. And they have more experience than say, me.
If they flip scum, however, my first suspicions will be towards sick again. Followed by sad for a possible day 1 bus tactic.
If they flip town, like I said, it's really dangerous.

I'm leaning pretty much solely on option 2 because I think it will yield more than any of the other paths.

Those are the only 3 people I'm interested in lynching right now, anyway.

I know zyf.. thats why i had to address it

[Zyf]

Lets just do 1 thing..how about we just call out people whom we have suspicion on. And if somebody is common is everyone's suspicion, and just hear his defense. That surely can help in getting leads

Vandit, I appreciate your fervor for getting some answers, but go through some isos, see what you find.

While it's great to hear everyone's thoughts as a democracy, your thoughts if you do that for us are worth 10x as much as the guy who pops on, reads one guy, then leaves immediately, without any thorough research.

Regardless, if you keep telling other people to post without contributing much of your own, it gets a little weird. A lot of what you've said is really just explaining how the game works. You've contributed some, but you could be even more helpful with some solid evidence.

PEdit-What exactly in there did you address? It's confusing because you post like a sentence per reply then do that 8 times. Chill, this isn't epicmafia, you've got time to consolidate your thoughts.

[Vandit24]

In the case if sickofit, he is my biggest suspect right now. Sad is my second option to lynch because which kind of mafia doesnt prepare for his defense and gives people that opportunity so he gets on everybody's suspicion list..

[Zyf]

Oh, you addressed the deception behind the appeal. SO what about the second chunk? Thoughts? Would appreciate an Iso first tho.

[Vandit24]

Iso??

[Zyf]

In the case if sickofit, he is my biggest suspect right now. Sad is my second option to lynch because which kind of mafia doesnt prepare for his defense and gives people that opportunity so he gets on everybody's suspicion list..

All right, now we're getting somewhere!

Although that's pretty much what I said, it's good to see that I'm not alone in my thoughts. You gonna push sick to L-2 or are you going to save your vote?

PEdit-An iso is when you read one poster's stuff in isolation: you can do it by clicking the "ISO" in parenthesis next to the post #.

[Vandit24]

Well ..rask hasnot done anything special right now. So my suspicion again can turn out to be a guess. But post #112 was a really special gesture by sickofit..i will vote sickofit now

[Vandit24]

VOTE: Sickofit113

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 1.5

sad1492 (3):

Sickofit1138, F-oh-ex, Ranger

Sickofit1138 (3):

sad1492, Zyf, Vandit24

Raskolnikov (1):

beeboy

No Vote (2):

dvds12, Raskolnikov

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Wednesday, June 15, at 4:00 PM CST, which is in (expired on 2016-06-15 16:00:00).

[Vandit24]

Honestly zyf.. please dont be upset.. i think i am getting a bit suspicion on you.. you are just ..too much kind

[Vandit24]

I am working on giving my explanations, I have some busy days coming up and I will be on not as much as I will like but I will definitely get up what I can.

I dont trust a guy who says he is busy and has that much time to open mafia, post this, and just leave. So we dont bother about him for some days which gets him time and he starts to kill in night time.

[Zyf]

Quote of Post 0 Removed ~Zaicon

You know what.. i am going to vote now.. VOTE: Raskolnikov
Now Reason-
I am not voting Sickofit as that guy might be having some troubles and not being able to post here but he is ACTUALLY being FEARLESS by not debating much here too and knowning that it would inflict suspicion on him. He also might be doing that so people like i am and wont actually vote him but dude..THAT TOO risky (espicially in a newbie match). That also might be the reason because he is knowning of himself being a Townie or either having a role of either being a Strong Townie player that functions at night and would kill the mafia/ cripple it (like jailkeeper).

Now why i voted rask??
If you actually see his posts like 3-4 times you will get that those arent strong ones and werent even goofy ones and were really WEAK ONES. Now even a mafia guy can do some strong discussion but there would easily be suspicion by seeing his tone, views on others, etc. factors which actually beeboy did very good, so a bit less suspicion. Now rask, if you would notice his posts in earlier were very worried about votes on him. He was actually worried about a wagon of votes and random lynch that could happen to him. Plus when zyf was getting even a little suspicious about him (which he is about everyone) he was the one who came out talking about him that its all turning on him etc. NOW THATS A LEAD atleast.

OK, this is some good stuff. Could you give the quotes of the actual rask posts?

[Zyf]

I am working on giving my explanations, I have some busy days coming up and I will be on not as much as I will like but I will definitely get up what I can.

I dont trust a guy who says he is busy and has that much time to open mafia, post this, and just leave. So we dont bother about him for some days which gets him time and he starts to kill in night time.

Yeah, agree with you there. Seems like an "I'm waiting to come up with a good excuse" post.
It should take you approx. 1 minute to explain why you made the reads you did in the past.

I asked him why he read sad as scum

as of his first read list,

not as of that point in time where he posted that ^

[Zyf]

All right, I'm gone for the next 6+ hours. Good luck with iso's and other thoughts, vandit.

[sad1492]

My sick vote was a Rvs vote dude. Same for why I say I liked your vote on bee boy. It was all a joke.
Now I strongly fos ranger, his reads are more likely misdirections.

[Vandit24]

My sick vote was a Rvs vote dude. Same for why I say I liked your vote on bee boy. It was all a joke.
Now I strongly fos ranger, his reads are more likely misdirections.

That is actually good enough thoughts on ranger. The same suspicion was with me and now you just proved it too. Now even if it was beeboy or zyf or rask or anybody that actually feel like he is doing misdirections i am going to say the same thing, not that 'sad' said this and i am all into agreement with him. Now not considering his flaming post made me angry (my suspicion on ranger is not because of that)

[Vandit24]

Senpai please teach me ;-;

<3

I think that, as far as how I'll IC, the best way in general will just be to let things be unless I see an obvious need to intervene, e.g. if a newbie expects to seriously no-lynch on D1 I'd need to tell them why we don't do that.

Also, I know you know the answer to this, but no spoilers. I want the newbs here to think about this:
{beeboy}
{dvds}
{Zyf, sad}

THIS POST espicially by Ranger is really really suspicious. He said he is IC so he WILL just intervene sometimes to help noobies etc., BUT this can also be a method so he can misdirect the topic for a while, make some very very clever/OFFICIAL looking posts so people absolutely dont suspect him any further until later. Now as we noticed above he did intervene but that wasnt helpful AT ALL and seemed to be just kind of forced/something else (as quoted by Zyf earlier)

[sad1492]

IN FACT: VOTE: Ranger

[sad1492]

By giving them, yet not explaining them, it allows me to share my thoughts without immediately sharing my thoughts

WIFOOOOOOMMMMMM

As soon as I'm caught up, I'll explain my reads.

And you said you would let people guess... This is quite obvious, Ranger is trying to fos me and at the same time withholding all information on why. But in the end town proved smart enough(somewhat) to not just blatantly follow his lead, so he is forced to actually come up with something.

Quote tag fixed. ~Zaicon

[sad1492]

For sad, it's really simple.

Sad wrote:
@Zyf: You don't really have to unvote... Just when I began to like your vote.
[/v]Sickofit1138VOTE: Sick of it.

Here, Sad says he liked the beeboy vote. He also has a comment towards Zyf which could be worth voting. Instead of pursuing these, he instead goes after a completely different player, Sickofit, absolutely randomly. If Sad were town, I would expect him to act similarly to Zyf: jumping at every minuscule detail that could potentially be a lead, but instead, we get this awkward and out of place RVS, while commenting on the play of others.

53 strengthened this. Aside from having a bad tone, there's caught for the wrong reasons

sad wrote:
People please, scum reading ANYONE on the first page requires skill.

And also continued dissonance:

Opinion: Sick is simply sheeping Ranger, his partner. Zyf town.
Foses: not yet anyone.

Furthermore,

At least for another page

This implies sad's reads are fake.

This is as forced as a scumread can be. I'll point out where it's wrong:

[sad1492]

1/ My sick vote is a deliberate RVS vote. I say I like the Beeboy vote because RVS vote.
2/ If Sad were town, I would expect him to act similarly to Zyf: jumping at every minuscule detail that could potentially be a lead. No, I'm not Zyf. Don't force me to play like Zyf.
3/ Opinions are opinions. Foses are foses. I would fos you all the same, however, as of my last game I saw someone posted a "ranger-style list", and reckoned you are pretty famous as a mafiascum player, so I decided to meta you before fosing. That's also why I asked for a meta on Ranger.
4/ Just look as how logical my read is, from both town and scum POV. This is discrediting.

[Vandit24]

Some very legit ones though..

[F-oh-ex]

Sometimes I will be inactive for a few pages and then come back with a longer post. Often a few pages appear while I'm asleep because time zones. When that happens, I'll be making longer posts which address everything that happened this far. In order to make this clearer to read, I'll be dividing them into parts.

Part 1: pages 1-2

Just to get the conversation going, what's everyone's experience with any sort of mafia?

A couple of months of chat mafia. One game here, as Town Tracker.

Actually, here. VOTE: beeboy
Since you're SE: why're you pulling out the 'innocent newb' card?

Is he?

Actually, here. VOTE: beeboy
Since you're SE: why're you pulling out the 'innocent newb' card?

You caught me, awww shucks!

I thought that if I could convince you all I don't have dozens of mafia games you would treat me as a beginner and could coast to the end game.

To others:
I personally don't trust the sarcasm. fosing for toDay.

Tone is a great way to get reads. That includes sarcasm. Noted your opinion.

Although your push is based on misunderstanding a joke I made you are probably town aligned and we are only 10 posts into the game!

How is a vote at RVS a push?

Senpai please teach me ;-;

<3

I think that, as far as how I'll IC, the best way in general will just be to let things be unless I see an obvious need to intervene, e.g. if a newbie expects to seriously no-lynch on D1 I'd need to tell them why we don't do that.

Also, I know you know the answer to this, but no spoilers. I want the newbs here to think about this:
{beeboy}
{dvds}
{Zyf, sad}

I like that approach to IC.
Also, the Ranger, the Ranger who made bracketed read lists!

To be honest, not a fan of them.

You can call me rask
Ranger always does it from town to scum, though it's a bit annoying because you don't know how strong the extremes of the list are at any given point.
Not particularly scumreading anyone atm but poking her is necessary.

Precisely why I don't like bracketed read lists. More of a "on a scale from X to Y" person.

Noticing that ranger's active in a different thread right now but ignoring this one.
So while I don't think that's enough evidence to bring someone to L-2, I would like some explanation, as an inactive IC is not exactly helping out.

I think you might have missed the part where Ranger explained her approach to ICing.

I do like what be seen some rask.

I definitely would like some more conversation to hop onto.

So 2 questions:
1. Why did you choose your username?
2. How long have you had a general experience in mafia? (Not necessarily just this site)

1. Because it spells Fox, as well as f(x) if you read it in a specific manner. Also, "oh" and "ex" are two words-not-words that I feel describe me well.
2. Already answered.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

?

Double ?
Also because I'm too lazy to go back and quote rask's response to my question...
UNVOTE: f-oh-ex VOTE: beeboy
Firstly because I now have more support for my reasoning against the inactive coasty townie, and

becuase beeboy is voting someone I'm reading as town without giving me info to hink otherwise

You might want to avoid that - just because someone is FoSing your townread doesn't make them scummy. What you're doing is buddying and could be interpreted as Chainsaw Defence. Not saying it is, far from it - but I think it's a bad play.

1. It isn't an omgus because rask wasn't voting me.
2. I don't like how Rask made his vote lose any form of pressure by saying it was a poke rather then a real read. Not only is that playing it way too safe for me to think it is town it also fails to actually apply any pressure with your vote.

I like that post. Good eye with noticing that Rask made his vote pointless by diluting the pressure it aplies. One point to beeboy.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Vandit

That reaction to ranger is horrendous. Attacks her more for being useless and/or wrong than being scum which carries an alignment assumption with it and reads caught-for-wrong reasons.
Instead of either then accusing ranger or trying to figure it out he tries to end the discussion and change the subject entirely? 148 appears to be trying to deflect in what he thinks is a towny way but is pretty absurd in context.

Vote on me is bizarrely reasoned and straight up wtf than anything else; unvoting to vote sickofit with no new posts from either of us is completely inexplicable as well and worse.
Top scumread is sickofit for promising content and then not delivering (112) which I assume was his attention was brought to by my brief mention of it but that's a really shallow scumread.
Having sickofit as his vote and sad as his second lynch after his interaction with ranger and 165 166 which casts shade here is extremely hard to believe given what his sickofit read basis is vs all the content from ranger and sad this game to have looked at.

Focus and reads even line up with sad partner iow what I think ranger's getting at. 110 and 124 is tone defence and dismisses the wagon as random but after ranger posts her vandit/sad he changes sad to his number 2 lynch option ahead of ranger in 152 inexplicably. Vandit having these lynch priorities and not voting ranger despite casting a ton of shade there along with the sad suspicion voiced reads distancing and not wanting to vote with sad here. The sickofit vote could be an appeal to zyf and me as we townread vandit and expressed interest there, but also possibly random onto what looks like an easy slot. The partner association isn't quite as surefire though and this could potentially be with someone else here, but is definitely the most likely combination here. Given the way he treated ranger I can also see a bizarre world here where he's with ranger and ranger potentially lynches sad to clear him although this is almost certainly overthinking it

Entrance tone read really eager, but this posting is, no exaggeration, the scummiest I have ever seen here. I am a touch disappointed if it is van/sad and this is all there is to this game, but given the playerlist here I'm not sure if newbie/newbie ever would have stood a chance as ranger said.

[F-oh-ex]

Part 2: pages 3-4

If you must know.

Zyf: Null-town.
Rask: Null-town
Ranger: Null
DVD: Null
Sad: Null-scum.
Beeboy: Null-scum.

A bunch of reads with no comment. From a person who barely writes anything game-related. You'll forgive me if I don't consider these very seriously.

Also, sudden scumreads on Sad are noted.

Uh-huh. Scum reads on me because of only 1 post.
Opinion: Sick is simply sheeping Ranger, his partner. Zyf town.
Foses: not yet anyone. At least for another page
People please, scum reading ANYONE on the first page requires skill.

Probably a hasty opinion but a valuable post. Sad was also in my first newbie so I'll try to use that to read him.

Uh-huh. Scum reads on me because of only 1 post.
Opinion: Sick is simply sheeping Ranger, his partner. Zyf town.
Foses: not yet anyone. At least for another page
People please, scum reading ANYONE on the first page requires skill.

I have to agree–reading sad as scum with one post is a little discomforting.
F-oh-ex, ayale, and dvds all have yet to make meaningful posts, so while I have a suspicion that one poster among us is scum, I hesitate to make pushes for 2 players being scum.
For now:
Null-Town: Rask-although not by much, they do seem to be posting in the interest of the town, and do not appear to have any biases whatsoever.

"any biases whatsoever", ah, language is important and this is a very strong emphasis. Let me pull up 2 posts.

Liking zyf here. Beeboys response reads fairly relaxed though I don't know how good as scum he is.

{beeboy}
{dvds}
{Zyf, sad}

How is zyf at the bottom here?

{zyf}
{beeboy, dvds}
{ranger, sad}

Rodion (may I call you Rodion?) seems to care a lot about zyf - first pointing out his low position in Ranger's bracket list, then putting him on top of his own. That makes Zyf's praise look suspicious to me.

So I have been rereading the fourm and right now everyone is null for me as of the moment, since not alot of discussion has been going on and it has just been kinda chitchatting, have not been able to make out good reads on everyone yet.

Could you perhaps get a read on ranger?
We've been posting more than 'chitchat' and I'm wondering if I'm just being paranoid by reading them as scum.

Awfully pushy.

To me all of rangers posts have been more IC related than actual game stuff, so that is why to me I read her as null for now.

Ditto. Ranger seems to be a good IC so far but no actual alignment read from me.

To me all of rangers posts have been more IC related than actual game stuff, so that is why to me I read her as null for now.

Hrm.
What's making you read me as null? Afaik I've been trying to get discussion going.

I don't like people who immediately jump with "But I did this and that, you should townread me!".

Task is still scum and you are still town.

What about ranger?
And sad? Do you read them as null or do you have a good explanation as to why you think they're scum?

1. Again pushing about opinion on Ranger.
2. Take a look at the last questions. It's an awfully loaded question:

Do you have a null read on them or do you scumread them with a good explanation?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. I don't like that.

Sad and Ranger are null because nothing they have done stands out to me.

So then why do you think sad is being read as scum by /both/ ranger and sickofit?

Asking a person X why people A and B both scumread a person L is a pretty bad question. Especially at this stage of game. Especially when the person B (sickofit) made no meaningful posts so far.

What Zyf is trying do to here is: "two people scumread him, come on, you can't have a null read on him". Compare with what I said about his previous post, just above.

Because something stands out to them that I am clearly not seeing. (I literally only have cop out answers as these are null reads of mine)

I also want sickofit to explain his read first as I already know Ranger wouldn't commit herself to something she can't explain even as scum.

Yeah definitely agree on making sick explain first

:
Right now it looks like ranger's scum and then sickofit is just agreeing to boost the argument, without a real argument of their own other than omgus, which at this stage could probably been changed.

Appreciating the (apparent) honesty here, so I think I'll move you back to null.

I don't like how arbitrarily you call Ranger and sad (more or less directly) scum and then brush off what sickofit is doing, even if you yourself analyse it as bad.

Bold because it will be important in a second.

I find it hard to believe town ranger isn't townreading zyf, especially considering how she talks to him in 51 which comes off as treating him town.

The last game I was in with her she was pretty actually apparent scum in that normally she wouldn't be completely misreading the game, assuming my own reads aren't off themselves. This isn't nearly as bad but still weird; I would expect her scumgame to be a lot better after that but then again this is hardly a red flag either. Ehh.

Noted but not much comment at this time - meta and "too obvious" are a load of WIFOM in Newbies.

Currently, I'm definitely not reading Fox as scum so I'm going to tentatively say Ranger-Sickofit scum team?

I'd like to hear their reads explained first before I go any furthe

r, but I'm struggling to decide which one I want to lynch...
Sickofit on the other hand is a weaker read for me, it's just they seem to be trying to lead the conversation astray, they don't seem to be interested in giving valuable read explanations,

and they read sad as scum because omgus

...they just seem to be following ranger too closely...

Hrm...UNVOTE: ranger and VOTE: sickofit

Also, thanks fox, I'll hopefully see you in a bit.

So Zyf was asking question "why do you think sickofit and Ranger scumread sad", then says twice that he wants sickofit to explain his read, then he jumps to saying "sickofit scumreads sad because omgus".
1. Sickofit never got to explaining his read.
2. You're inconsinstent.

I find it hard to believe town ranger isn't townreading zyf, especially considering how she talks to him in 51 which comes off as treating him town.

The last game I was in with her she was pretty actually apparent scum in that normally she wouldn't be completely misreading the game, assuming my own reads aren't off themselves. This isn't nearly as bad but still weird; I would expect her scumgame to be a lot better after that but then again this is hardly a red flag either. Ehh.

Do you think sickofit is following ranger as a scum team and that's why sick also didn't post their explanations?

Also to ranger: Unfortunately, deliberately not sharing your reads sets a precedent for the newbs like myself, so now I'm having difficulty reading sick as town, too. If everyone else follows your strategy, then we're basically toasted because no one can convince anyone else of...well...anything.

OBJECTION! Leading the witness!

Uh-huh. Scum reads on me because of only 1 post.
Opinion: Sick is simply sheeping Ranger, his partner. Zyf town.
Foses: not yet anyone. At least for another page
People please, scum reading ANYONE on the first page requires skill.

You're arguing against early scumreads and fos and at the same time scumreading sick/ranger as a team?

I see what you're saying, but the difference is sad literally had posted once (on the first page) without any substantial thoughts yet ranger immediately read sad as scum. I think they took offense due to the one post + first page, not the fact that it's RVS rn.

That being said, I like your thinking. I'd like to put you in town.

Updated thoughts:
{Rask}
{...no one}
{beeboy, F o x, sad, Ayale}
{dvds-your lack of interest in getting any thoughts down bothers me, but it could easily be newb caution. Please, the more you put, the better it is for us as a town as a whole}
{Ranger, Sickofit}

Second praising of Rask btw. Also, me and Ayale in the same bracket as beeboy and sad? That's just... wrong. I made like 2 posts at the time and Ayale made none.

Nice, welcome aboard, Vandit.
Interested mostly on your reads on Rask, Ranger, and sickofit.
Your mafia experience?

Not sad this time? Trying to strengthen general scumread on Ranger and sickofit and townread on Rask?

Note that at this point I'm scumreading Zyf already so I might be prone to tunnelling. Asking about one's strongest reads isn't necessarily scummy... but Zyf keeps rubbing me wrong.

*Mr. Lonely plays in background*
Whenever beeboy gets back:
Do you still read rask as scum?

Awwwwwwwww, you care so much about how other people view Rask! It's so cute!

Sick, whenever you get back on, you'd better explain why you read sad as scum.

You already answered that question yourself.

I find it hard to believe town ranger isn't townreading zyf, especially considering how she talks to him in 51 which comes off as treating him town.

I didn't say anything about not townreading them, now, did I?

Hm, so is Rask pushing people townreading Zyf?

Yo where did everyone go

They went to clean the floor after the flood.

Get it? Because you wrote 6 posts in a row?