Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[karnos]

Karnos you are just wrong here

That is a matter of opinion, isn't it?

You know you could try to convince me, instead of saying "you are just wrong".

Are you saying that fake claiming a power role isn't a scum indicator?

Or are you saying that a blanket excuse like "I was joking" can be used to nullify any prior scummy behavior?

[ploben]

@Karnos, ignore Dunnstral for a moment please. Do you have reads on anyone else?

I do. But it's day one. All reads are rather flimsy at this point in the game.

Merely speaking about them can cause the player in question to change posting style, so I don't see strong incentive to share. It also gives a roadmap for the scum, so they can kill the players who read them scummy and support the players who read them as townish... no thanks, I am not going to give out that information right now.

The bolded statement seems to actually contradict your actions so far this game.

[ploben]

That bolded statement also is anti-town. Sharing information is the only weapon town has, as we are in the dark.

Plus this reduced the amount of interactions and associations you have with other players. I feel as town you should have no qualms about creating associations because you have nothing to worry about. Scum, on the other hand, has to think long term and set themselves up in later days to look like town so they will be crafting interactions and associations.

[karnos]

The bolded statement seems to actually contradict your actions so far this game.

There is no contradiction. I am not scum, so I don't need to change my posting style to hide anything.

[karnos]

That bolded statement also is anti-town. Sharing information is the only weapon town has, as we are in the dark.

Plus this reduced the amount of interactions and associations you have with other players. I feel as town you should have no qualms about creating associations because you have nothing to worry about. Scum, on the other hand, has to think long term and set themselves up in later days to look like town so they will be crafting interactions and associations.

Open 638, I was scum. When I was the last scum alive, I simply killed based on prior read lists, killing the players most suspicious of me while even keeping alive a known mason because he was repeatedly reading me as a top town. Sharing information can help town, selectively, but blindingly sharing all information with no regards for the consequences can give scum a powerful weapon to use.

As to your later point, I don't even know how to react. Most games, I see myself or other town accused of buddying, because clearly only a scum would have someone else to trust. And now this game, you seem to be accusing me of not buddying, because obviously if I was town I would buddy up with other players... why exactly? This is day 1. I don't have any definite information, it's all guesswork and hunches. I'm don't feel confident enough in any of my guesses or hunches to call them town at this point, sorry.

>Scum, on the other hand, has to think long term and set themselves up in later days to look like town so they will be crafting interactions and associations.

I disagree. Scum has it easy. Scum can pick a known town (because they know who all the town are, obviously) and safely "buddy". If that town is mislynched, then the scum uses that as proof that he and his buddy were town. Town doesn't know who else is town. As a town player, I might pick someone who I am fairly sure is town, and yet guess wrong. Then when that player flips as scum, I am just setting myself up to be miss lynched the next day. Please, tell me again how you think it's easier and safer for town to create associations?

[ploben]

I'm not sure what your point is of bringing up Open 638.

Eitherwho...Meta is crap, whether you scum hunt with meta or use it as a defense. Players who are aware of meta can obviously change it to project whatever they want.

...And now this game, you seem to be accusing me of not buddying...

I didn't accuse that at all. Try again.

We'll agree to disagree today.

Bottom line: Info is key for town since we have none to go off of. Associations, interactions, and conversations all reveal info and is a plus for town. ESPECIALLY post flip when town can go back and look at that particular player's interactions and make assumptions based on the alignment of the flip. Depriving town of that is suspicious.

[Shadow_step]

@Florestan
How do you feel about a Chip Butty lynch? No votes on him yet but I'd support it.

@BTD6 AND Shadow
Confident in a scum read somewhere to unpark your RVS vote? I think those are the only two RVS votes in play.

As a matter of fact, yes.

Just caught up and when I first read the Ploben thing I completely dismissed it as a joke because of the brackets and fun things inside them and was pretty surprised when people took it seriously. What he's doing/claiming to do not sure on that one yet, is a thing called Slayer's Gambit (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... 27s_Gambit) and is probably not a great way to go about finding scum but is a strategy that you can use.

I didn't like Alpaca's entry.
He tried to passively dismiss the case on you, it looks like he reads you as town but did not state it explicitly to avoid suspicion(I think).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alpaca

I would really like to lynch this guy

[Shadow_step]

Another paranoid thought:
If this is all just town vs town vs town vs town and mafia have daytalk they are sitting there saying "Don't jump in the middle of this and create associations, let town eat themselves alive here"

This could very well be the case.

[BTD6_maker]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

[Persivul]

Votecount 1.3

karnos (5) - duppin, dunnstral, ploben, scott brosius, BTD6 (L-2)
Ploben (3) - florestan, karnos, chip butty
Alpaca (1) - shadow

Not voting (3) - Ranger, Bulletproof Ben, AlpacaAlpaca

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

(expired on 2016-06-19 07:30:00) remain until day end

[Scott Brosius]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

Do you think Chip is scummier than Karnos? It's early in the day so I'm not sure why that wouldn't accomplish much. Why announce that you are voting for pressure when that pretty much undermines any pressure you hoped to gain?

[karnos]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

This is the scummiest single post I have seen in this thread. I can go into detail later, busy at work, but I'm sure any town player can come to the same conclusion as me if you just look at what BTD wrote above, his prior posting history in the thread, and the ongoing situation.

Ploben is certainly still on my radar as a potential scum, I don't like a lot of his posts, but I'm going to reconsider things.

UNVOTE: ploben

[Chip Butty]

My feeling is if Chip is town he would seriously look back and maybe reconsider this whole case on me. Town doesn't have perfect info so town's game needs to be a game of reconsideration.

Scum Chip looks so much worse if he backs off now on his case on me. Especially since he has perfect info that I'm town and currently has Florestan and Karnos on me as well. It's 43% on the way to a D1 mislynch.

I'm pretty happy with the way the discussion has gone so far. Your fakeclaim was the strongest lead coming out of RVS and, yes, in itself it is not so strong, but your subsequent reactions have done nothing to allay my suspicions, and have in fact strengthened them, and that is one reason I persist with it. The other reason is that I don't see much in the way of alternative pushes. The push on karnos is the only other serious push so far, and I'm just not feeling it right now, for reasons already given.

At the very least, your flip, should it occur, will yield a lot of info, simply because the discussion has generated a lot of strong associations, both positive and negative. Me, karnos, Dunn, dupp, Flor, Ranger, and Scott have all weighed in with fairly strong opinions one way or another.

Your reactions: It was a joke! -> It was a reaction test! -> It was a joke that became a reaction test! -> Wanna lynch Chip? -> Hey, maybe this is just TvT, guys -> If Chip was Town...

It's starting to look more than a little flaily to me.

[Chip Butty]

Out of all the votes, this is the softest push on ploben thus far and seems like scum pouncing on what they view as a potentially easy wagon.

If you replace "ploben" with "karnos" in that sentence, you get an accurate summary of your post:
"Out of all the votes, this is the softest push on

karnos

thus far and seems like scum pouncing on what they view as a potentially easy wagon."

How is he getting towncred out of it if nobody counters? That's exactly what happened in this game, ploben has hardly gotten towncred.

He stood to gain Towncred if his claim was believed, but since it wasn't, no Towncred. It's not rocket science.

Do you think Chip is scummier than Karnos? It's early in the day so I'm not sure why that wouldn't accomplish much. Why announce that you are voting for pressure when that pretty much undermines any pressure you hoped to gain?

Attacking the only two guys who are pushing to find scum? Looks like an easy jump-on.

How about contributing some independent reads of other players? And your posting rate looks a little like lurking without lurking at this point. I mean, two posts and it's just "Oh yeah, I'm siding with ploben against Chip and karnos..."

[karnos]

I'm not sure what your point is of bringing up Open 638.

I didn't think I could be more obvious. Here, I'll try again in simpler words:

Telling all information to scum can be bad!

Bad scum use information to nightkill good players!

Telling bad reads lets scum know they can keep you alive, because you aren't even close to finding them.

...And now this game, you seem to be accusing me of not buddying...

I didn't accuse that at all. Try again.

Exact quote:
"Plus this reduced the amount of interactions and associations you have with other players. I feel as town you should have no qualms about creating associations because you have nothing to worry about"

Explain how you were not talking about buddying. Associations, at least when your association is something like "player x is town", isn't that the same as buddying?

I unvoted because we have a lot of time still for day 1, and I want to consider other options, but looking at the above I just see you making a lot of nonsense claims, it really makes me want to switch back to voting you.

[karnos]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

Okay, waiting for updates to install on a computer so I have a few minutes to explain.

1- The L-2 vote is the perfect jump-in point for scum. Scum doesn't want to be seen starting the wagon, and scum certainly doesn't want to be seen hammering. This in itself is a minor point, obviously every lynch must pass L-2 at some point, but the fact he announces it as L-2 just rubs me as a scum trying to push a wagon while acting careful.

2- BTD's ISO- seems to be coming out against Ranger in #171 #172... every scum player soon realizes Ranger is a threat, could have been testing the waters to see if he could get someone else to vote her. Fake townslip in #14.

3- Nothing original, just jumping on the wagon.

4- A personal understanding I have of BTD's play style. In my brief time here, 2 of my games were with BTD. One game we were both town, and in the other we were both scum. In both cases I found myself making very similar arguments to him. I think his style of play leads him to the same general conclusions as me, most of the time. Yet here he is, coming to just about the exact opposite conclusion as me in this game. I wonder why? Simplest explanation is that his play style is still the same as mine, but his victory condition is not the same as mine in this game. I am town, he is scum, thus the difference.

[karnos]

In both cases I found myself making very similar arguments to him.

I mangled the grammar in that sentence, let me rephrase.

Correction:
In either case I found that we made very similar arguments.

[Shadow_step]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

This is the scummiest single post I have seen in this thread. I can go into detail later, busy at work, but I'm sure any town player can come to the same conclusion as me if you just look at what BTD wrote above, his prior posting history in the thread, and the ongoing situation.

Ploben is certainly still on my radar as a potential scum, I don't like a lot of his posts, but I'm going to reconsider things.

UNVOTE: ploben

This backtracking is really scummy.
This reaction especially after you were put on l-2, makes it worse.

If you don't have a better place to move your vote, then why unvote?

[Chip Butty]

How did you get a read on Shadow_Step on page 1?

Two sources.
First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.

So, given Mod's answer that, even with one scum being replaced, the remaining scum can choose the role-mods, this seems to come to nothing. Ranger, what is you ranking of Shadow now?

[karnos]

If you don't have a better place to move your vote, then why unvote?

I don't want ploben lynched yet, I obviously don't want myself lynched yet, and I think giving BTD a single vote before I have even seen his response to my post would be silly empty gesture.

[Chip Butty]

This backtracking is really scummy.
This reaction especially after you were put on l-2, makes it worse.

If you don't have a better place to move your vote, then why unvote?

I have to agree with Shadow here. Given the totality of your posts in this game so far, I wouldn't go so far as to say "scummy" just yet. Let's just say...perplexing. L-2 doesn't put lproben in dire danger of a scumhammer to end the day early, assuming he is scum, and it is not like there aren't multiple scum out there. it could be BDS AND lproben. Can't quite see why this moved you to unvote.

[Chip Butty]

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim.

Okay, so give us a list of all the alternative leads that we all should be pursuing right now...Apart from me and karnos pursuing ploben, who else do you see as potentially scummy? Give me a serious lead (or leads), with supporting reasons, and I promise I will take a serious look at it/them.

[karnos]

Perplexing... good word choice. What I find perplexing is... consider for a moment the scenario in which I am scum. What is scum.karnos gaining by dropping the vote from ploben? I can understand why you don't like that I dropped the vote, it makes the wagon on him a bit weaker, but why does it make me look scummy?

And FWIW, I think it's a bit unfair to call it backtracking. I am certainly not suddenly convinced ploben is town. I just don't feel the urge to vote him right now.

[Chip Butty]

Well, I specifically said "I wouldn't go so far as to say "scummy" just yet". If I thought it was a scummy move, then I would be finding it perplexing. I just don't see why, as Town OR as scum, you'd want to unvote.

I don't have a particular problem with it, I just want to understand it. And I'd like to see pressure maintained on lproben at least until a more promising lead emerges.

[Chip Butty]

*...wouldn't be finding it... ^