Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[Alexcellent]

I could easily!
I'm choosing not to. It's a non-issue. Unless you're at risk of being lynched, it's simply not something I need to spend my time on.

Hmm...
Town reading someone for RVS with no reason why. Claiming there's a reason while trying not to explain in. "it's simply not something I need to spend my time on" It wouldn't take much effort to explain it. You already spent time thinking about it, now you just have to write in down. I definitely am leaning towards Ranger+Alpaca as our scum team.

Her refusal to share a reason for the read doesn't overly bother me, it's the reason why she's refusing that bugs me. I don't really accept "I don't feel like it/will take too much time" as a good reason to not cooperate on her reads. Even if it's kind of flimsy or meh reasoning, surely it's not that hard?
If Ranger is scum though, I don't think that would make Alpaca scum.

What do you think of Innocent Villager?

[drmyshottyizsik]

ok so mm and iv scum team, this was easy

[BTD6_maker]

Ranger's overconfidence seems to come from a scum perspective. What I mean is that a scum already knows exactly who the scum are and thus may give stronger reads than their Town-self. These reads could be in either direction. A scum might strong scumread a Townie for a chance of an easy mislynch or may strong scumread a partner to avoid detection after the partner flips.

Ranger is my best scumread now. Still only weak-moderate but worth voting on.

VOTE: Ranger

This is now L-1

It puts enough pressure on Ranger now (some others still scumread her such as Alexcellent) so that she can't afford to give bad reasoning now or simply refuse to explain a read. Explaining anything benefits Town. We are in the dark. Scum already know who scum are.

[Kappy]

Well? Ranger?

[innocentvillager]

If you're 100% scum, would you agree to get lynched tomorrow when you're wrong about me?

Of course you would. After all, there is no chance involved in 100% scum, right?

Please lynch Ranger immediately on D2 if I happen to get lynched kthxbai

You realise if you're lynched as town, you're not actually out of the game, you just lose your vote, right? This doesn't feel like it's coming from a tree's perspective.

Yeah, maybe I've taken that into consideration

Lol was just saying this now so that we would agree to get Ranger on D2 beforehand. I would have no voting power as a stump.

So I get that a lot of people don't like my 110 because it looks like I'm backtracking when I say both M&M and Ranger are scummy. I get why, and objectively, if I read that from another POV it might ring alarm bells. But honestly, I'm just giving my thoughts. Even if scum could have motivation to do that, town can most obviously have these thoughts too. Alex scumreading me for this is understandable I guess, but Ranger 100% scumreading me for that is rather ridiculous.

I'm not excluding the possibility of TvT. I was just saying they're both scummy. I clearly mentioned at the end of the post that I had a much stronger scumread on Ranger. However, it seems like that have both played with each other a lot, and both claimed that the other is strongly aligning with their scum meta. The scenario where one of them is right and the other is bullshitting is much more likely than the one where both are completely wrong, given how well they know each other. That's why I thought TvT was unlikely.


I have been slightly torn ever since I read Ranger's willingness to get herself lynched when I flip town. Why would a scum knowingly agree to that, knowing that I will flip town if lynched? Maybe she was forced into it, given her 100% scumread on me. But then what is the scum motivation for doing this? Why even make that read in the first place?

On the other hand, her recent play has no town motivation at all. She's basically using appeal to authority to support her reads and arguments, and only gives explanations for reads when heavily pressed, and they're always the same as before unless new substantive posts have been made. It just looks survivalistic and declarative, with no actual intention of trying to persuade others to join her on her reads.

@Alex I just remembered that you scumread me for doing this exact thing. I personally think it's townie when someone tries to get people to agree with their reads since it is actively protown, why was that scummy for you? (I'm talking about the Kappy thing).

Back to Ranger, I am starting to think that maybe she is just egotistical town. I'm guessing her scumgame and her towngame are fairly similar, so it could be a null-indicator playstyle thing. If I have some time maybe I'll try to meta her, but it looks like some people know her well enough on here. The thing is, if she's town by some chance, town would probably autolose as she would try to get me lynched the next day and that would basically just give us two mislynches.

For now, UNVOTE: Ranger, since I am not ready to put her at L-1 yet.

We need to get some pressure on Alpaca, Shotty, and KAAG to do SOMETHING. They have literally done NOTHING this entire game, save for a couple of assorted comments.

VOTE: Shotty

They're all doing basically nothing, but Shotty in particular has been active lurking, given zero reason for any of his reads, and scumreads me for my reaction posts but STILL refuses to explain why. If you think I'm scum, fucking try and tell everyone to vote me and why. That is town behavior, not what you're doing.

[innocentvillager]

I also didn't like the fast wagon on Ranger, all of the reason which were basically the same thing.

I thought about it some more, and I really just cannot see ANY scum motivation for making a 100% scumread on me, trying to switch the wagon over to me from M&M, and agreeing to get lynched after I flip. I can only conclude that Ranger is egotistical town.

I would bet that one scum is in Alpaca, shotty, and KAAG (the three who are doing nothing), and that one scum was on the bandwagon of Ranger. More analysis on this when I have time.

[Quaroath]

Mod: can you update the playerlist with the replacements?

Done - Whoops on missing that.

[Quaroath]

Vote count 1.4

BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

Innocentvillager – (3) drmyshottyizsik, Ranger, Alexcellent

Music and Mail - (1) KickAssAndGiggle

Ranger - (3) Kappy, Music and Mail, BTD6_maker

drmyshottyizsik - (1) innocentvillager

Not Voting - (0)

With 9 eligible to vote, is takes 5 to lynch.

KickAssAndGiggle has been prodded.

Deadline is in (expired on 2016-06-12 22:00:00)

[Kappy]

I thought about it some more, and I really just cannot see ANY scum motivation for making a 100% scumread on me, trying to switch the wagon over to me from M&M, and agreeing to get lynched after I flip. I can only conclude that Ranger is egotistical town.

Unless it's bussing, or Ranger is secretly hoping you don't get lynched, and gaining towncred from you realizing it.

[Kappy]

it being that that doesn't seem like a scum move.

[Music and Mail]

Why is IV obvtown to you?

Some of the detail in his posts.

For example:

Here's why I don't like that all of the reads are exactly the same: I'm trying to picture a town making an initial readlist with no explanation, just skimming through the posts with an initial impression. Then she gets questioned about her readlist, to provide reasons for more than half of them. She would have to go through all of the posts again, and analyse each post in-depth to be able to refer to each post in the readlist.

True reads are fickle, in my opinion. Ranger even admits something along the lines of "one could get multiple impressions from certain posts". I can't picture a town having the exact some read rankings to the precision of ties after almost a day and an extra post-by-post in-depth analysis of each character. Well, I mean I guess I can if the readlist was initially made with a similar level of detail as in the post analysis, but I still think it's unlikely. 106 just looks like the explanations were shoved in to fit the read, which only makes sense if you're fabricating them.

-- Mail

[Music and Mail]

Ranger, your case is horribly reachy and flimsy. Not to mention that innocentvillager looks pretty obvtown to me.

Oh really?

Explain your reads on innocentvillager to me please.

I've only played with town-you twice, but both times I could actually understand where your reads were coming from. This, on the other hand... I just... I have several issues with this readslist.

^This implies you held severe issue with innocentvillager, in the middle of my list.

I did. My issue was that you weren't townreading him.

If you're town here you deserve to be lynched.

And this is an attitude you would

never

take as town.

Ever.

Question: have you ever seen scum-me getting snarky/aggressive when interacting with the people scumreading me or even while just making a push on someone?
Because I can point you to plenty of examples of me doing that as town but exactly zero examples of that happening where I've been scum.

I do not think you know my meta as well as you think you do.

Town-them holds absolutely no fear of being lynched whatsoever, because in their world, there isn't any possible way they could get lynched.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

26 had a fake tone to it.

Of course it did because it wasn't a serious post!

Autolynching Ranger tomorrow for this.

If Music and Mail were town, they would be raising

absolute hell

about my scumread on there. We're talking, going virtually Frozen Angel levels of ballistic.
Well, actually, small correction. If they were town and townread me, they would be ranting at me.
If they were town and scumreading me, they would be ranting at the town about me.

This was it though.
This, literally this, was basically the whole of their Ranger push.
It's fake. It's insincere.
You get 97, but it's not filled with passion. It has no energy. It's flat, dull even.
103 is also more of the same. It's just further elaborating, but at the same time, not. It's not making a big display of it. Me scumreading RC is a

very big deal

.
To me, RC is just another player. I don't treat him any differently than I would anyone else. But this is not mutual. RC holds me in a whole different league, so he should be angry. He should be emotional. He should be saying how sad he is that I've gone downhill like this, he should be trying to work with me, or if he seriously thinks I replaced in as scum and for some UNGODLY reason went all-out on him (which...runs contrary to literally every piece of my scum meta, ever), he would not rest until I was dead.

Yet he's complacent here.
He's docile.
And that is not a town-Radiant.

The context (I hope) you're missing: RC has had a string of terrible FoSes on him recently.
This reaction makes

complete

sense.

-- Mail

[Ranger]

So there is absolutely no possible short answer to this question?

Never said that. I'm just not in the mood to give blunt answers. Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. Right now, I won't. Maybe later, I'll feel different and will. But for the time being, deal with it.

Claiming there's a reason while trying not to explain in.

I don't do try. I do, or I do not. I flat-out explicitly am choosing not to explain the townread.

[Kappy]

Why do you refuse to explain? What do you gain from it?

[Ranger]

I don't really accept "I don't feel like it/will take too much time" as a good reason to not cooperate on her reads.

Well, tough.

Even if it's kind of flimsy or meh reasoning, surely it's not that hard?

Of course it's not that hard. I can explain any read on the drop of a hat to at least an adequate level most of the time. In fact, explaining the Alpaca townread would be ridiculously easy.

But when I say I don't feel like explaining.

I mean I don't feel like explaining, and no amount of pushing me to explain will change my mood.

Well? Ranger?

How about...no.

I will explain my townread on Alpaca when either I feel like it, or when Alpaca's life is in danger.
I also happen to be a tree, so stumping me means that I can do this at

literally any time

. (Well, except the night, obv.)
Neither condition is true. And until one condition is true, I will continue to not give any. Either lynch me, try lynching Alpaca, or drop it. I'll explain when I see reason to. The threat of being lynched, when

I can continue to talk after being lynched

, is not reason to. L-2, L-1, lynch, twilight, doesn't matter to me. There's no pressure on me that is actually meaningful.

If you want me to detail a scumread, go ahead and ask me! I'm in the mood to explain

those

, albeit only on prompts like the one Alexcellent gave.
But I have no desire at this moment to explain either of my stronger townreads at the time. (Speaking of which, I'm about to post a new readslist.)

[AlpacaAlpaca]

So Ranger do you think that Ploben is scum based on his IC claim or is it something else?

[Ranger]

both claimed that the other is strongly aligning with their scum meta.

Wrong. They haven't, because they know this isn't my scumgame. If they tried, they would fail.

I

have. I can back it up, because they

are

playing to their scum meta.

I also didn't like the fast wagon on Ranger, all of the reason which were basically the same thing.

And what was the wagon prior to the Ranger wagon?

Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, KickAssAndGiggle

Gee, I wonder!

Question: have you ever seen scum-me getting snarky/aggressive when interacting with the people scumreading me or even while just making a push on someone?

One, I fail to see how that was relevant to my point, but two, while lack of a very specific pattern from prior scum games which is present in town games may be a valid reason for most players, for your hydra...it most

certainly

is not. Not only because of being a hydra itself, but also because of who you are as players. It's literally saying, "Find this behavior, dare you to, because here is where I have showed it as town". An argument you thrive in.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

As previously established:

RadiantCowbells

. The guy who prides himself in basically never getting mislynched, except in cases of extreme town stupidity, he'll insist. (This claim, regardless of its truth, is what he BELIEVES is true, so for the purposes of my statement that RC would never fear getting mislynched as town, it holds true.) And Postie, a player

known for making herself obvtown

. (Speaking of obvtown, RC does it too.)

There should be no fear whatsoever of being lynched, especially not in THIS game of all games. Heck, for that matter, given a town-shotty could continue talking even after being lynched, there should be no fear whatsoever of lynching town.

Of course it did because it wasn't a serious post!

Funny, it looks serious enough to me. (But I don't see this line of argument going anywhere other than "It was!" "It wasn't!" in a no-u cycle, so I'll drop the point.)

The context (I hope) you're missing: RC has had a string of terrible FoSes on him recently.

Oh? Care to show them? I didn't see any.

Why do you refuse to explain? What do you gain from it?

Well at first, there was potential information to be gained from holding back, as per the norm. But now? Mostly, nothing at all. I just don't feel like explaining that read right now.

[Ranger]

So Ranger do you think that Ploben is scum based on his IC claim or is it something else?

Wrong game, fella.

[AlpacaAlpaca]

Wow my bad, being in games with duplicate people has been throwing me off

[Music and Mail]

Question: have you ever seen scum-me getting snarky/aggressive when interacting with the people scumreading me or even while just making a push on someone?

One, I fail to see how that was relevant to my point, but two, while lack of a very specific pattern from prior scum games which is present in town games may be a valid reason for most players, for your hydra...it most

certainly

is not. Not only because of being a hydra itself, but also because of who you are as players. It's literally saying, "Find this behavior, dare you to, because here is where I have showed it as town". An argument you thrive in.

I've read this over like 5 times now I still can't understand what you're saying so I'll just rephrase my previous point: you're using something that's basically a towntell for me to scumread me.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

As previously established:

RadiantCowbells

. The guy who prides himself in basically never getting mislynched, except in cases of extreme town stupidity, he'll insist. (This claim, regardless of its truth, is what he BELIEVES is true, so for the purposes of my statement that RC would never fear getting mislynched as town, it holds true.)

As scum!

He prides himself on never being mislynched

as scum

!
He's scumread and mislynched as town frequently enough (when he isn't nightkilled, anyway).

And Postie, a player

known for making herself obvtown

.

[citation needed]

(Speaking of obvtown, RC does it too.)

[citation needed]

The context (I hope) you're missing: RC has had a string of terrible FoSes on him recently.

Oh? Care to show them? I didn't see any.

I'll let RC handle this if/when he feels like interacting with you.

-- Mail

[Ranger]

I've read this over like 5 times now I still can't understand what you're saying so I'll just rephrase my previous point: you're using something that's basically a towntell for me to scumread me.

And my point remains unchanged: you said that if I'm town, I deserve to be lynched.
I said that was not an attitude you would take as town to me, EVER.
You then ask me a question which is entirely unrelated.
But bluntly, your statement it's a towntell means nothing to me.

He prides himself on never being mislynched as scum!

You can't mislynch scum.
While it's true, RC holds pride of never getting lynched as scum, I meant what I said: RC still holds that pride of basically never being

mis

lynched, and every time he does (extremely rare as it may be), he blames a horrible town for it.

[citation needed - Postie makes herself obvtown]

From RC himself if I recall correctly. I got this information from a game's scum thread in which Postie was town. Only so many games that could have been.

[citation needed - RC makes himself obvtown]

Basically every single towngame of his I've played in, ever. The closest you get to exceptions are Space Invaders (where his obvtowning kicked in late for me, but still kicked in) and Assassins Creed (where he flat-out wasn't even playing for most of the game, but once he actually engaged me it became clearer).

[Music and Mail]

I've read this over like 5 times now I still can't understand what you're saying so I'll just rephrase my previous point: you're using something that's basically a towntell for me to scumread me.

And my point remains unchanged: you said that if I'm town, I deserve to be lynched.
I said that was not an attitude you would take as town to me, EVER.
You then ask me a question which is entirely unrelated.
But bluntly, your statement it's a towntell means nothing to me.

I don't see how my question was unrelated? I was pointing out that this isn't an attitude I'd take towards you as scum and giving evidence to back that up.

While it's true, RC holds pride of never getting lynched as scum, I meant what I said: RC still holds that pride of basically never being

mis

lynched, and every time he does (extremely rare as it may be), he blames a horrible town for it.

I guess RC can settle this issue himself, but either way, saying someone would purposely do something that would make the town want to lynch them because they don't get lynched easily is just awful reasoning.

[citation needed - Postie makes herself obvtown]

From RC himself if I recall correctly. I got this information from a game's scum thread in which Postie was town. Only so many games that could have been.

That's contrary to my experience. Remember who the day 1 lynch (attempt) was in our last game together?
Apart from yourself, other people have called me obvtown in exactly one game and I was scum there.

[citation needed - RC makes himself obvtown]

Basically every single towngame of his I've played in, ever. The closest you get to exceptions are Space Invaders (where his obvtowning kicked in late for me, but still kicked in) and Assassins Creed (where he flat-out wasn't even playing for most of the game, but once he actually engaged me it became clearer).

Because you personally find him to typically be obvtowny-looking does not mean that he's obvtowny-looking to everyone else.

-- Mail

[drmyshottyizsik]

sorry I got in a car accident last night, hospital post, will be out later today sorry.

[innocentvillager]

sorry I got in a car accident last night, hospital post, will be out later today sorry.

Holy shit dude, sorry about that. Get better soon.

Phone posting, but for now I am confused on why Ranger has spent all of her time bickering with M&M, while I am somehow "100% scum". Townie play would be to focus on trying to get me lynched.

@Ranger why aren't you doing more to get me lynched?

[Kappy]

True. You're 100% scum, and M&M is only 95% scum.