Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[karnos]

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.

town
----
karnos - the only player I know for sure is myself.
Ranger - if ranger is scum we are doomed.
Shadow_step - seems to be using the sort of logic a town should use to catch scum.
Scott Brosius - i think he is misguided town, from my experiences a lot of town players who haven't played through a game with me think my posting style is scummy
AlpacaAlpaca - i think just a newbie town putting way too much credence in wiki info
Chip Butty - probably town, but it has crossed my mind that a scum might want to defend me to build some town cred when i flip. 80% likely town
Bulletproof Ben - can't read, no posts. statistically more likely to be town than scum.
Florestan - probably town that is just coming to some wrong conclusions, but could be scum
duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.
ploben - either scum or very stubborn town who refuses to admit an error. uses a lot of non-logic and contradicts himself a lot, but I am starting to wonder if he is just dumb town
Dunnstral - one of two types. either very arrogant town that thinks he has everything figured out when he obviously doesn't, or scum trying to control the game in a very aggressive manner. if scum, I could easily see him turn on ploben on day 2 after i flip town. If town, he will probably convince himself he was right about ploben and go for chip, sinking the game for town if chip flips town. dangerous player for town either way.
BTD6_Maker - based on my experience playing with town.BTD and scum.BTD, this is clearly scum.BTD
----
scum

[Shadow_step]

@Shadow
Alpaca could possibly be the lurking scum this game. You seemed to be convinced about Karnos with the invite unvote event. Is the Alpaca case stronger in your mind or is there something else that's pushing you to vote Alpaca?

Case on Alpaca is stronger I feel. Regardless I want the lynch to be between Alpaca and Karnos today. So more votes on Alp would be good.

[ploben]

@Karnos
I'd rather not spend anymore time on this as you're not bringing anything new to the table. Plus I'd rather not give scum a roadmap by responding. You should understand that.

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.

Nice AtE

[ploben]

@Shadow
Alpaca could possibly be the lurking scum this game. You seemed to be convinced about Karnos with the invite unvote event. Is the Alpaca case stronger in your mind or is there something else that's pushing you to vote Alpaca?

Case on Alpaca is stronger I feel. Regardless I want the lynch to be between Alpaca and Karnos today. So more votes on Alp would be good.

Karnos is L-3 though. You're currently the only one on Alpaca.

[AlpacaAlpaca]

@Shadow
Alpaca could possibly be the lurking scum this game. You seemed to be convinced about Karnos with the invite unvote event. Is the Alpaca case stronger in your mind or is there something else that's pushing you to vote Alpaca?

Case on Alpaca is stronger I feel. Regardless I want the lynch to be between Alpaca and Karnos today. So more votes on Alp would be good.

Except your case is just that, since I am defending Ploben I have to be scum who knows that he's town cause otherwise why would I possibly want to defend him. Could it possibly be that I think he is town and I'm town? Is it possible that I am capable of holding my own opinions whether or not they line up with yours? Why yes it is. I genuinely thought that he was town at the time and when he said it was a reaction test it reminded me of the Slayer's Gambit which I had read on the wiki recently and so I posted a link to show that it is possible that he is doing what he is doing from a town mindset.

[karnos]

@Karnos
I'd rather not spend anymore time on this as you're not bringing anything new to the table. Plus I'd rather not give scum a roadmap by responding. You should understand that.

I see, you are doing something you called scummy. It must be another joke! do you ever post anything real, or is your entire iso a bunch of jokes?

I'm looking forward to reading your posts on day 2.

Spoiler:

Karnos flips town.

ploben: oh, my lynch vote on him was just a joke! I'm totally not scummy!

[Persivul]

PantherPunt replaces Bulletproof Ben

[PantherPunt]

wooo

reading

[PantherPunt]

I may or may not make a page worth of posts in a row by myself. Forgive me.

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and

you're steering town in the wrong direction

.

VOTE: BTD6

What did you mean steering town in the wrong direction?

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and you're steering town in the wrong direction.

VOTE: BTD6

I was looking at the Town list of roles

. I suppose I am so used to seeing Bulletproof as a Town role that I forgot it was a scum role in this game.

Anyway, he is either not Bulletproof or is scum.

does not compute
BTD6: You're not bulletproof
ploben: bulletproof is mafia tho
BTD6: I was looking at town list of roles
Panther:^wut?

[PantherPunt]

Am I understanding the setup right?

Town as 6 non-VT roles, which imlies Mafia chose 4 role-mods. The 4 Mafia role mods are: Change goon to Bulletproof; Change goon to role-cop; Recruit traitor; Change goon to JOAT. Implying that Mafia didn't choose daytalk?

If so, we ought to be on the lookout for attempts by scum to communicate to each other during the day...

Yeah, but check out the phase 2 role-PMs. 6 Town. Town gets 2 random role-mods, plus one extra for every Mafia role-mod. Implies 4 Mafia role-mods (6-2). Since we know what those 4 are, we can conclude that daytalk wasn't among them.

derpclear...

denied

accepted. I don't think you could make this one up as mafia
one locktown down

[PantherPunt]

@Florestan
I'm assuming you find it scummy then so can you post links to games (completed of course) where you have seen this, called it out, and that player has flipped mafia?

I have 1 completed game dude.

VOTE: Ploben I don't like the way you are approaching this right now.

riiiight

what, specifically, didn't you like about how ploben was approaching what, specifically?

[PantherPunt]

karnos 53 - no
dunn 55 - nodding yes
chip 57 - no but he's town so w/e
chip 59/60 - good read imo; shows depth of thought
chip 66 - the IC 'claim' wasn't a 'slip' just fyi
dunn 68/78 - nodding yes to all; except I don't see what you saw in shadow (you elaborate you don't like him in 90. clue me in?)
karnos 86/94 - so much no

karnos 97 -

Thought you were arguing that he was doing it as scum to be believable?

Based on the theory that

ploben

might have mistakenly thought the IC role was only revealed by mod when the player chooses to reveal...

As scum, serves two purposes:

1- with less observant townies, you might actually succeed and fake as IC, and avoid suspicion for awhile

2- could get the real town IC to instantly confirm as a counter claim, before you come back with "oh it was just a prank bro"

As town, it serves what purpose exactly? I can't think of one, sorry. It's just throwing misinformation around. It can't confuse scum, they already know who is town, but it could confuse fellow town. It's simply playing against your win condition as town.

It's hard for me to believe you yourself believed these words as you typed them out; successfully fake claim IC? what?

THEN say the purpose is to get real IC to counterclaim; why are scum trying to get the IC to claim from your POV? what benefit do they get from that?

You're assuming scum had a misconception about how the role works in this game, and there was a concerted effort to potentially out a role that may or may not be in the game?

when he also 'claimed' cop with a night0 investigation result (which isn't possible, similalary to how him being IC wasn't possibly bc it wasn't posted at game start). why not get all up in his ass about trying to get a cop to counterclaim? I'd be more willing to believe that you believed yourself if you took that line

[PantherPunt]

Votecount 1.4

karnos (4) - duppin, dunnstral, ploben, BTD6
Ploben (4) - florestan, chip butty, karnos, ranger
Alpaca (1) - shadow
Chip Butty (1) - scott

Not voting (2) - Bulletproof Ben, AlpacaAlpaca

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

(expired on 2016-06-19 07:30:00) remain until day end

Seeking replacement for bulletproof ben

very interesting, prior to being fully caught up
I look forward to see the rationale behind the ploben wagon, and if it's for this claim nonsense or he actually does some scum-motivated things from post 100 forward

[duppin]

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Not quite sure I understand this. Do you find me scummy for RVS voting or because my vote is still there? Also the lack of recent posts is a bit weird statement, I'm not always around.

Overall I find your readlist really questionable. First of all I find it rather interesting how all of your strongest scum reads are all the people who voted on you. I can't help but feel this is just OMGUS, but feel free to prove me wrong.

I haven't played with BTD before, so I'd like you to elaborate. What's the difference between his town and scum play? As in, what makes this "clearly scum TBD"?
I'd also really like you to explain the strong town read on Ranger.

[duppin]

Care to explain the Dunnstral read?

In due time.

Still too early for explaining things here. (Alpaca will be, or already did, ask that same question about ploben, btw. You'll either see it soon enough, or have already seen it, depending. But this is also answering his request.)

Noted.

I'll get back to this later then, because it bothers me. There is no way you thought ploben was being serious when he claimed IC.

[ploben]

Spoiler: PantherPunt Quote

I may or may not make a page worth of posts in a row by myself. Forgive me.

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and

you're steering town in the wrong direction

.

VOTE: BTD6

What did you mean steering town in the wrong direction?

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and you're steering town in the wrong direction.

VOTE: BTD6

I was looking at the Town list of roles

. I suppose I am so used to seeing Bulletproof as a Town role that I forgot it was a scum role in this game.

Anyway, he is either not Bulletproof or is scum.

does not compute
BTD6: You're not bulletproof
ploben: bulletproof is mafia tho
BTD6: I was looking at town list of roles
Panther:^wut?

RVS nonsense. Let's move on.

[BTD6_maker]

I may or may not make a page worth of posts in a row by myself. Forgive me.

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and

you're steering town in the wrong direction

.

VOTE: BTD6

What did you mean steering town in the wrong direction?

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and you're steering town in the wrong direction.

VOTE: BTD6

I was looking at the Town list of roles

. I suppose I am so used to seeing Bulletproof as a Town role that I forgot it was a scum role in this game.

Anyway, he is either not Bulletproof or is scum.

does not compute
BTD6: You're not bulletproof
ploben: bulletproof is mafia tho
BTD6: I was looking at town list of roles
Panther:^wut?

I was only looking at the roles for Town and somehow ignored the roles for scum. I had only ever seen Bulletproof as Town before.

[karnos]

I'll respond to panther after he is fully caught up.

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Not quite sure I understand this. Do you find me scummy for RVS voting or because my vote is still there? Also the lack of recent posts is a bit weird statement, I'm not always around.

It's scummy because you voted me before the stated reason for voting me even existed. You decided I was scum first, and *then* you accepted evidence to confirm what you already decided, on page 1 of the thread. Sure, maybe once in a while you are lucky enough to randomly vote the one player you will legitimately decide is scummy all through to the end of the game, but I don't think this is random luck. I think this may just be a scum who doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it's not his scum mates, and leaving your random vote sitting on me until I get lynched is the perfect cover.

On day 2, you will just claim "oh, I'm sorry, that was my RVS vote, I'm not scum I just forgot to switch"

No, I don't accept that. If I am going down, I want you to take responsibility for your vote. Explain clearly why you are voting me, and why you think I can't be town.

Overall I find your readlist really questionable. First of all I find it rather interesting how all of your strongest scum reads are all the people who voted on you. I can't help but feel this is just OMGUS, but feel free to prove me wrong.

OMGUS is not a scum tell. Of course it looks bias- I have information you probably do not have: I know I am town. I don't know ploben's alignment. From my perspective, it is far more likely the scum would wagon a town rather than wagon ploben, who could potentially be another scum. I fully expect scum to be on my wagon rather than his.

I'm actually starting to wonder if OMGUS is used as a complaint by scum more than town, it seems like it is. It's not really a scum tell, but scum often claim it against town to discredit the townies vote. I should do some analysis of my last few games.

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7981114]
I haven't played with BTD before, so I'd like you to elaborate. What's the difference between his town and scum play? As in, what makes this "clearly scum TBD"?
I'd also really like you to explain the strong town read on Ranger.

I am not sure ranger is town, but there are way too many scummy players in this game. If ranger is scum, town lost already. If ranger is town, town might win. I'll treat ranger as town because that is the only way town can win.

Feel free to lookup BTD's past games, I don't want to spam more than I already am. As town I saw him make cases and vote, post read lists, ask for explanations of things. As scum, I see him post shorter posts, one-liners, vote with a very limited explanation. He also posts far less often as scum. In his town game, I see 79 posts in his iso over a 17 day period, as scum he only posted 60 times in a 22 day period.

So far, he has posted 11 times in a 3 day period. I sense his scum game is such that he doesn't need to get involved too heavily as long as the lynch is heading towards a town. Of course, my mere mention of this may cause him to change his posting style, in fact he may have already attempted to adjust it since I first called out his scummy post.

[karnos]

Bah, messed up the quoting. This is the same as above, with quoting fixed. ALWAYS USE PREVIEW.

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Not quite sure I understand this. Do you find me scummy for RVS voting or because my vote is still there? Also the lack of recent posts is a bit weird statement, I'm not always around.

It's scummy because you voted me before the stated reason for voting me even existed. You decided I was scum first, and *then* you accepted evidence to confirm what you already decided, on page 1 of the thread. Sure, maybe once in a while you are lucky enough to randomly vote the one player you will legitimately decide is scummy all through to the end of the game, but I don't think this is random luck. I think this may just be a scum who doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it's not his scum mates, and leaving your random vote sitting on me until I get lynched is the perfect cover.

On day 2, you will just claim "oh, I'm sorry, that was my RVS vote, I'm not scum I just forgot to switch"

No, I don't accept that. If I am going down, I want you to take responsibility for your vote. Explain clearly why you are voting me, and why you think I can't be town.

Overall I find your readlist really questionable. First of all I find it rather interesting how all of your strongest scum reads are all the people who voted on you. I can't help but feel this is just OMGUS, but feel free to prove me wrong.

OMGUS is not a scum tell. Of course it looks bias- I have information you probably do not have: I know I am town. I don't know ploben's alignment. From my perspective, it is far more likely the scum would wagon a town rather than wagon ploben, who could potentially be another scum. I fully expect scum to be on my wagon rather than his.

I'm actually starting to wonder if OMGUS is used as a complaint by scum more than town, it seems like it is. It's not really a scum tell, but scum often claim it against town to discredit the townies vote. I should do some analysis of my last few games.

I haven't played with BTD before, so I'd like you to elaborate. What's the difference between his town and scum play? As in, what makes this "clearly scum TBD"?
I'd also really like you to explain the strong town read on Ranger.

I am not sure ranger is town, but there are way too many scummy players in this game. If ranger is scum, town lost already. If ranger is town, town might win. I'll treat ranger as town because that is the only way town can win.

Feel free to lookup BTD's past games, I don't want to spam more than I already am. As town I saw him make cases and vote, post read lists, ask for explanations of things. As scum, I see him post shorter posts, one-liners, vote with a very limited explanation. He also posts far less often as scum. In his town game, I see 79 posts in his iso over a 17 day period, as scum he only posted 60 times in a 22 day period.

So far, he has posted 11 times in a 3 day period. I sense his scum game is such that he doesn't need to get involved too heavily as long as the lynch is heading towards a town. Of course, my mere mention of this may cause him to change his posting style, in fact he may have already attempted to adjust it since I first called out his scummy post.

[duppin]

So far, he has posted 11 times in a 3 day period. I sense his scum game is such that he doesn't need to get involved too heavily as long as the lynch is heading towards a town.

I see, but if you think this is the case why do you think ploben is scum? Wouldn't ploben have to be town for this to make sense, seeing as you are currenly tied at 4 votes?

[karnos]

Actually, scratch that last part. His posting regularity isn't really all that different from scum & town games, I failed to account for the fact that he was lynched prior to the end of his scum game, throwing off the numbers.

[duppin]

OMGUS is not a scum tell no, I never claimed it was, but it isn't a town tell either. It is however a pretty bad play, as you're reads are obviously very biased.

As for my initial vote on you, it was a RVS vote I placed on a random player. I've already explained why I kept it. There will be no such thing as "I forgot to switch" day 2, and I have no idea why you keep coming up with weird scenarios about what people are going to say tomorrow. How about we just focus on today? I kept my vote on you because I think the push on ploben is lazy. I think it's the perfect spot for a scum to hop in on. I have a town read on Chip and that leaves you and Florestan. I find you more suspicious, so my vote stays.

Proposing this was a setup is honestly quite strange.

[duppin]

I also think the read on Ranger is a bit weird. How many times have you played with her?

[karnos]

I see, but if you think this is the case why do you think ploben is scum? Wouldn't ploben have to be town for this to make sense, seeing as you are currenly tied at 4 votes?

Are you trying to say that scum.BTD wouldn't vote me if ploben is also scum? Why not? I am truly confused by this question of yours.

[duppin]

I see, but if you think this is the case why do you think ploben is scum? Wouldn't ploben have to be town for this to make sense, seeing as you are currenly tied at 4 votes?

Are you trying to say that scum.BTD wouldn't vote me if ploben is also scum? Why not? I am truly confused by this question of yours.

You claimed that scum.BTD doesn't need to get involved in the game as long as the lynch is heading towards a town, so if you do not think he has been involved in this game wouldn't that mean that ploben was town as well? Seeing as the lynch was heading towards either you or ploben.