Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over


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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:18 pm

Post by karnos »

Okay. I am revisiting my original reasoning for voting ploben, because I keep thinking about it and it makes perfect sense to me, but a lot of players seem to think it's the scummiest thing in the entire thread so far.

First, a little background. I played mafia games on another forum before this. A lot more casual, random. The Innocent Child, as used there, was the sort you PM the mod when you want to have your role confirmed. I discovered this site while looking for alternate setups on google. At first, I thought playing a game where a single day can take several RL weeks seemed incredibly slow paced, but I still had some interest.

Anyway, eventually I decided to try playing here, but figured I should read through one game first. A recently completed micro game was "Kids With Guns" (you can even see it finished fairly close to my join date of March 5), so I decided to read through it.

Page 8 of Kids With Guns

Notice- Innocent Child as a role is activated by PMing the mod. When the player who has that role did use the mod vouching ability, he said this (exact quote)
"Maybe I've been hinting because I don't feel like getting killed N1. Imagine how beneficial it would be for the IC to get to like LYLO or something. "


This resonated with it, it made perfect sense, and when I saw this game potentially could include an IC role I naturally assumed it worked the same way. I honestly had no idea that the exact same named role could use different mechanics depending on the setup. Even the wiki was no help- looking up Innocent Child on the wiki it says that the mod announce upon PM type of IC is the most commonly used.

I guess it was a newbie mistake to overlook that part of the setup, but it was one that other players made as well. I mean, if I saw a game that included mafia goons and masons and the setup explained that the "mafia goon" role was actually town aligned doctors, I would be completely confused by that as well. I'm not blaming the mod here, I guess if anything I am blaming the setup for using the role in the less common way.

As scum, wouldn't you rather nightkill the IC the very first night, rather than see him announce in LYLO? That is why a "jokey" fake claim looks scummy to me, it's the perfect way to weed out the real IC in a counterclaim.

I also think the joke excuse is rather scummy. What better way to play as scum? Just joke a lot, then if you actually do slip accidentally, you can just claim it was yet another one of your many jokes. Some players aren't native english speakers, some players are young, some players might just lack a sense of humor. Joking as town can only hurt town. If you do joke, the town thing to do is admit the joke immediately, rather than keep it going for several dozen posts.

Ultimately, I could have accepted ploben's "joke" explanation if that was it, but it wasn't- he decided to change his joke into a trap and claim he did the whole thing to catch scum... even though he later claimed scum would NEVER make that mistake because scum would obviously read the setup before playing. All in all, I am still heavily leaning toward ploben being scum. If it was a joke, he could have had his laugh and been done, instead he is trying to use it as an excuse to lynch a townie.
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:18 pm

Post by Chip Butty »

In post 422, Dunnstral wrote:Check out post 420 because that's the dankest slip you're gonna see this game

When karnos is being voted: Time is a resource

When people start to vote Ranger: A lynch is just as effective 1 hour before deadline as it is now
No, no - there's no inconsistency there. 'Time is a resource' means "let's make use of all the time we have available (i.e. 14-day Day)"; "A lynch is just as effective..." means exactly the same thing. In both cases, he is saying we should take our time and not rush into a lynch.

It is fine that you are scrutinizing karnos, but I think I'm seeing some confbias in some of your posts and some by others. It is like you are determined to see scumminess in anything he posts, whether it is there or not.
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:23 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 422, Dunnstral wrote:Check out post 420 because that's the dankest slip you're gonna see this game

When karnos is being voted: Time is a resource

When people start to vote Ranger: A lynch is just as effective 1 hour before deadline as it is now
Are you really that twisted in your logic?

Waiting until 1 hour before deadline is how we use the maximum amount of time. Why lynch now, and throw away all the extra time we have available?
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:24 pm

Post by ploben »

18 pages in an we're still talking about 10 words from RVS.

I love it.
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:29 pm

Post by ploben »

Karnos, just for gits and shiggles, it never crossed your mind that was supposed to read like:
not so innocent
mind like a child

As in two separate self-deprecating statements that people may or may not find entertaining.

That's all

Nothing more

Nothing less
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:31 pm

Post by Chip Butty »

In post 415, ploben wrote:
In post 410, Florestan wrote:We should never have a lynch this early in the game.
I don't like this continuing to diffuse the power of town's only weapon...voting and lynching.
Actually, we have another resource - time. Why lynch early when we have 14 days available to gather info and try to induce scumslips? How is it diffusing the power of voting and lynching if we do that at near dayend rather than much earlier? karnos, on this point at least, is exactly right.

There's no way that lynching early increases our chances of getting it right, BUT there is a chance that taking our time will do that.
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:34 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

Thought he was saying "we should lynch now" with his quote, guess I was wrong
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

I'm not wrong actually he's saying it's the same whether we lynch now or later but earlier he said it's best to wait later
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:41 pm

Post by Scott Brosius »

In post 261, Chip Butty wrote:
In post 257, Scott Brosius wrote: This post is weirdly defensive. I never attacked you I simply asked BTD why he was voting Karnos if he thought you were scummier. The game has been open for just a few days so his statement that a vote on Chip won't go anywhere is curious since there is plenty of time left. I really didn't have much of an opinion on you until this post that seems a little too reactionary for me not even suspecting you.

There is no believing or not believing the IC claim. It is a mod-confirmed role. You don't get towncred by claiming it, you are either mod-confirmed town or not mod-confirmed town. Regardless, this IC semantics discussion has been distracting but gave us a nice jumpoff point for actual content.

As for my posting, I was gone over the weekend and read up last night. Instead of making an assumption based on a post number, read the flow of the game.

Saying I'm siding with ploben against you and karnos is also a misrep (karnos yes, you no). As I previously said in this post I didn't have an opinion on you until this post (you can go back and check all 2 of my posts), but now that you are overreacting, I'm feeling more confident in this vote.

Unvote
Vote: Chip Butty
1. Maybe I did overreact a bit, but there has been a lot of "Oh look at karnos and Chip going after ploben when he was just joking" without suggesting better leads to follow, and it is getting a little frustrating. Like I said to someone before, show me a better lead, with supporting reasons, and I'll look seriously at it. In the meantime, ploben is the best we have, especially given his multiple reactions to the accusations against him.

2. I read your response to BDS as sounding out support for a wagon on me and even egging him on a bit (i.e."It's early in the day, there is still time to make it work" [paraphrase]). If that isn't what was intended, see (1.) above...
Eh I'll buy your explanation.

Unvote

In post 300, karnos wrote:My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.
My confidence in my vote here grows.

Vote: karnos


Florestan's comment about unvoting if Karnos gets to L-1 due to "not trusting this town" and the current move of the vote off Karnos is something to note if Karnos flips scum. First place to look.

Not liking shadow who planted his vote on a useless wagon when ignoring wagons and content that are actually happening. Not suggesting Alpaca is town either, but it could be an avoidance scum strategy. Said one brief thing about karnos, nothing about ploben and is looking cautious.
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 401, Dunnstral wrote:
Maybe I'm biased because he's getting wagoned for the wrong reasons and I think everyone on his wagon is scummy but I was thinking he's town

Did you read all of my post 276 because I explain my read in there
So your read on ploben is based on him claiming
"I didn't do what I did to make friends but to do exactly this, get this game rolling and hopefully draw out some good conversation. Also, in the likely event of my death at some point in this game these events should yield some good interactions with others and hopefully town can use that. This is my play here guys, straight up. Good, bad, or otherwise."
which is really weird, because he later flip-flopped into saying it was a joke, not a test.

Other than that, nearly every ploben quote is him responding to me or voting me. It doesn't really seem like you are reading him at all for anything original. Also find it a bit funny how every time I mention the scum I am called out as OMGUSing, while ploben's vote on me was obviously that and nobody said a thing.
In post 401, Dunnstral wrote: Karnos top town reads are Ranger, Shadow_Step, Scott Brosius, and AlpacaAlpaca

Like what, that just feels so fake that his strongest town reads are on the people who've posted the least
Or maybe, it could be that my top reads are players who are not on a town wagon.
In post 401, Dunnstral wrote: on the opposite side of the spectrum: BTD6, Dunnstral, ploben, duppin, and florestan

That's literally the 5 people who are voting or trying to vote him
Sorry, it's day 1, not a lot of stuff to go on. Being on a town wagon is a scummy thing IMO, so yes the people voting for me are mostly around the bottom of the list.
In post 401, Dunnstral wrote: Also I just realized that he has ploben listed as THIRD most likely scum, and I'm more likely to be mafia apparently and BTD6 is more likely too

That's.... just contradictory to what he's been saying, he's basically been saying he thought I was more likely to be town than scum the whole time in his other posts
No contradiction. BTD's scummy action fits wither either you or ploben as scum. I am still playing under the assumption that the scum team isn't totally stupid, so they wouldn't all buddy up in such an obvious way, which makes me less confident about you and ploben. I think probably one or the other is scum, but both being scum seems unlikely.

In post 401, Dunnstral wrote: And to top everything off he brings out the "statistically more likely to be town than scum" for ben
It's incredibly simple math. There are 12 players. 9 town, 3 scum. Statistically a player is more likely to be town. Since at that time we had not seen a single post from "bulletproof ben", that is the only data we had to go on. You could even make the argument that it's harder to "roll" as scum, so if he did get a scum slot he would be more likely to stick around and play, but I wasn't even thinking about that when I made the read list.
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Post by ploben »

In post 433, Scott Brosius wrote:Florestan's comment about unvoting if Karnos gets to L-1 due to "not trusting this town" and the current move of the vote off Karnos is something to note if Karnos flips scum. First place to look.
Bingo!

Give that man a cookie.
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:45 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 429, ploben wrote:Karnos, just for gits and shiggles, it never crossed your mind that was supposed to read like:
not so innocent
mind like a child

As in two separate self-deprecating statements that people may or may not find entertaining.

That's all

Nothing more

Nothing less
By itself, it does look jokey. But I didn't read it by itself. I came into the thread after you guys had been posting for a few hours, there were already a couple full pages of posts, and immediately below your IC claim post is another post from you denying it's a joke, claiming that the mod will confirm you later.
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:47 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 432, Dunnstral wrote:I'm not wrong actually he's saying it's the same whether we lynch now or later but earlier he said it's best to wait later
Sure, if you totally ignore context you could read it that way. With context, it's obvious what I meant and even you should know that.
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:51 pm

Post by ploben »

In post 436, karnos wrote:
In post 429, ploben wrote:Karnos, just for gits and shiggles, it never crossed your mind that was supposed to read like:
not so innocent
mind like a child

As in two separate self-deprecating statements that people may or may not find entertaining.

That's all

Nothing more

Nothing less
By itself, it does look jokey. But I didn't read it by itself. I came into the thread after you guys had been posting for a few hours, there were already a couple full pages of posts, and immediately below your IC claim post is another post from you denying it's a joke, claiming that the mod will confirm you later.
Just when I thought we were getting somewhere...
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:54 pm

Post by karnos »

Ploben, you love to ignore my points. Please at least address this one.

In the kids with guns game, as I linked above, "bill & gompers" a hydra of a couple experienced players, says "Maybe I've been hinting because I don't feel like getting killed N1. Imagine how beneficial it would be for the IC to get to like LYLO or something. But hey, that's fine, just keep pushing someone you think may be the IC."

Do you agree with what he said? Does it make sense from a town perspective to keep the IC role hidden if possible?
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:08 pm

Post by karnos »

Interesting. He was on 3 minutes prior to my post, but now he is magically gone. Ask him a tough question and he vanishes!
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:10 pm

Post by ploben »

I refuse to respond to anything more about what was said in RVS. It wasn't serious and continuing to bring it up as serious content is a colossal waste of time.

Edit after my post: You are really grasping for straws.
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:16 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 441, ploben wrote:I refuse to respond to anything more about what was said in RVS. It wasn't serious and continuing to bring it up as serious content is a colossal waste of time.

Edit after my post: You are really grasping for straws.
Yeah. Scum confirmed.

You just don't want to admit that scum indeed would want to know the identity of the IC, and you don't want to admit that your "joke" post could be taken seriously, especially if a player uses English as second language. You also guessed it would be a safe gambit, because you could just use the "joke" excuse if you were caught.
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:17 pm

Post by ploben »

Unless someone does something ridiculously crazy like quote their mafia role PM, I cannot see myself coming off Karnos for my D1 lynch. Someone would have to present a really really strong case.

I believe we've found our first scum.

VOTE: karnos
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:20 pm

Post by ploben »

Spoiler: This is Karnos
Image
Better to be read dumb than scum.

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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:21 pm

Post by karnos »

In post 443, ploben wrote:Unless someone does something ridiculously crazy like quote their mafia role PM, I cannot see myself coming off Karnos for my D1 lynch. Someone would have to present a really really strong case.

I believe we've found our first scum.

VOTE: karnos
What is this empty gesture? You were already voting me...


I think I am starting to understand the town self voting thing. Yeah, it's terrible and ultimately playing against your win condition, but you get into a situation like this where the most obvious scum in the world wagon you and you just want to end it and flip so that you can see them get lynched in day 2. Meh, I can be patient.
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:23 pm

Post by karnos »

Ploben, I am answering questions, and asking them. You are the one ignoring perfectly valid questions. If there is any flailing here, it's coming from you. Why? Because you know you have to answer in an incredibly scummy way to avoid self-incrimination. I mean, I get it. If I was scum this game in your place, I wouldn't want to respond to those questions either. But just because I sympathize with you doesn't mean I am going to let you off the hook.
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:28 pm

Post by karnos »

{dunnstral, ploben, and either BTD or duppin}

The game has been solved, scum listed above.

Alternatively, the game has been thrown by the town players above, because the choose to tunnel me for the wrong reasons. No, I can't believe town would play like that. At least 2/4 of the above are scum, 90% confidence, and could be all 3.
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:38 pm

Post by PantherPunt »

I have an idea

Does anyone know about Plotinus's "get a room" mechanic

It's when people vote for other people to get a private chat and then they are forbidden from talking about one another in the main game thread for 48 hours

Well we can't give karnos and ploben a private chat, but I highly suggest a 48 hour ban on them talking about one another

For the sake of the town and this game, hunt elsewhere. You both think you caught scum. Cool. You're probably both wrong.
There's two other scum even if you're right. Hunt for them by asking questions and calling out things you take issue with

But dear god shut up about each other for a bit pleeeeeaaaaassssseee
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:54 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

In post 447, karnos wrote:Alternatively, the game has been thrown by the town players above, because the choose to tunnel me for the wrong reasons.
"for the wrong reasons"

Is that another slip? What was the "right reason" to tunnel you for then?
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