Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[Dunnstral]

I have an idea

Does anyone know about Plotinus's "get a room" mechanic

It's when people vote for other people to get a private chat and then they are forbidden from talking about one another in the main game thread for 48 hours

Well we can't give karnos and ploben a private chat, but I highly suggest a 48 hour ban on them talking about one another

For the sake of the town and this game, hunt elsewhere. You both think you caught scum. Cool. You're probably both wrong.
There's two other scum even if you're right. Hunt for them by asking questions and calling out things you take issue with

But dear god shut up about each other for a bit pleeeeeaaaaassssseee

To be fair we've got a ton of lurking/active lurking I feel like

[Florestan]

Spoiler: This is Karnos

but why is it scum flailing rather than town flailing.

[Ranger]

PantherPunt replaces Bulletproof Ben

Now there's a name I never thought I'd see in a game of mine ever again.

There is no way you thought ploben was being serious when he claimed IC.

It's funny that people keep on thinking this is the reason why I'm scumreading ploben.

[Dunnstral]

Ranger you need to explain:

Your scumread on ploben
Your scumread on me
Your townread on karnos

Or do you have some super special reason to keep all that to yourself?

[Ranger]

but I have a hard time believing Ranger actually believed that, and see more likelihood that it's a nefarious attempt to mislead

So your theory is, I as scum, tried to clear my scumbuddy, off of something that the mod would be obligated to tell the town was wrong?

Yeah, no.

[Ranger]

ranger has given no content. she will argue that her read lists are content. I will argue that that's bullshit because she has failed to show her thought process behind any of those reads

You of ALL people know this.
As in.
Of every player in the game.
No player knows this better than PantherPunt thanks to his Ranger experience.
That a lack of explanation is not an absence of ability to show explanation.
It is a willing choice, to put off explaining until a time of my choosing.

Why do I say he of all people knows this?
Because he was the victim of my vengekill in Longnight.
I did basically zero explaining of my reads while alive.
I even self-voted.
After I was hammered, I gave some, but not much.
Most of my commentary was in the vengeful/twilight/dead thread of that game, where I went into

extensive

length in my analysis, and why I believed what I did.

This is no different, and if he were town, he would

know

it was no different.

[Dunnstral]

Actually you need relevant reads we're not on page 5 anymore

[Ranger]

For comparison, this is me while alive.
Compare and contrast, same game, this is me once dead. Same player, same alignment, same wincon, same goal: kill scum.
Entirely different levels.

Because the former was my standard earlygame approach: empty listing, which allows others to fill in the blanks and take guesses.
The latter was when I actually got serious and doubled-down.

Here, I have not been serious yet.
And if PantherPunt were town, he would have recognized this. Especially given he blacklisted me for that game. (Thus my surprise to learn he willingly replaced in this game.)

[Ranger]

the fact that others pointed out the fallacy of her shadowguy read (the only one she's given) yet she decided not to respond to it at all is definitely interesting

This is also wrong.

I did respond.

I posted that on page one, my reason for townreading Shadow was twofold.
First, the moderror argument.
Second, because of 17 by ploben.
The former, by the mod himself, was proven to be untrue.
The latter still holds, and Shadow's play since then has cemented his spot as a townread anyway.
I have stated all of this before; none of this is new.
I can explain at any time, and probably soon, I will. (Depending on my mood.)

[Dunnstral]

And if PantherPunt were town, he would have recognized this. Especially given he blacklisted me for that game. (Thus my surprise to learn he willingly replaced in this game.)

[Ranger]

I think Ranger is very likely town if Karnos is indeed mafia (I still think he is)

Guess what this is setting up for when karnos inevitably flips town?

(Hint: it rhymes with, "Well I was strong on karnos, must mean that Danger is scum.")

[Dunnstral]

Still haven't given any reasoning on how Karnos is town

Forgive me if I don't follow your blank page 5 reads

For the record that comes off as oddly defensive as I basically was saying you're town if Karnos is mafia. The reverse isn't true at all, there's no correlation, it's a one way thing. Really odd that you're picking at it

[Dunnstral]

Also you're voting ploben (the wagon) and not me, but you're casing against me.

[Ranger]

I'm waiting for her to explain her read on me because she acted like she had something special to say about that but is voting ploben so I want to see if it's not something lame

It's not.
For what it's worth though, you've fallen from second to third!
(Panther holds that slot now.)

Look at the people voting karnos though as opposed to Ploben in this

Funny, my takeaway is the opposite. The ploben wagon is ridiculously towndriven, and was before I joined.

The karnos wagon, its counterwagon, is filled with players who are at best nulltown. At

best

.

[Ranger]

Man that's a scummy vote.

Oh?
Do tell.
I'd almost think you were being sarcastic with your comment, because Florestan's vote on me was anything but.
Yet.
You actually seem

serious

, that this person voting a

player you have issues with

, when they had

made their own issues known

, is scummy.

[Ranger]

(448 is also a scum post, but I'll get into the why later. Got other things I need to do at this moment.)

[Dunnstral]

Man that's a scummy vote.

Oh?
Do tell.
I'd almost think you were being sarcastic with your comment, because Florestan's vote on me was anything but.
Yet.
You actually seem

serious

, that this person voting a

player you have issues with

, when they had

made their own issues known

, is scummy.

Thought I had, this is more directed at Florestan than you

Florestan was so ready to vote Karnos earlier but also gave that line about unvoting if it ever got to l-1

Then after Panther pushes on Ranger, Florestan is suddenly ready to vote Ranger with him

It's not like he spran gup his vote from nowhere, he did lead up to it, but that's why I think it was scummy.

[Dunnstral]

448 is also a scum post

That's a town post.

[Ranger]

Ranger you need to explain:

There is absolutely nothing I need to do.
The closest that I have to a read I need to explain is karnos, which can (mostly) be summed up as a combination of experience and how ridiculously obvtown he is when he makes many of his statements, not so much by their literal content, so much as by having played with karnos, knowing how he thinks as town and scum, and knowing that he's done a ton of stuff that simply makes no sense to do as scum but which makes sense coming from town, aka, stuff that looks scummy, but is still undeniably town. This is, of course, not an actual explanation of my karnos read. I'll need to go into detail sooner rather than later, but the full explanation will happen...not at this very moment, when I have other stuff to do first.

Or do you have some super special reason to keep all that to yourself?

At the start, always. I already said my readslists are both serious

and

reaction tests. The latter is reason enough to not post them until later. Right now, not as much. I'm going to get to it relatively soon. I will not give you a hard deadline here. It'll come.

Also you're voting ploben (the wagon) and not me, but you're casing against me.

That's not casing. That's commentary. When I get to casing. I won't even need to announce I'm casing. You'll know it.

Actually you need relevant reads we're not on page 5 anymore

Okay, relevant reads?
{Shadow_step, Chip Butty, Florestan, karnos}
{duppin, BTD6}
{Alpaca, Scott Brosius}
{Dunnstral}
{PantherPunt}
{ploben}
There ya go.

[Ranger]

Okay, let's start with karnos.
Compare his iso this game to two isos:
this game,
And this game.

Which of those two games does his iso look closer to?

Now, don't cheat and look at his alignments in those games. One's a town game, another a scum game. Tell me, which do you think is which, and which do you think his play is closer to this game?

Done that?

Okay.

Now.

I'm about to give you the answer.

So absolutely don't read this far into my post until you've done the above exercise.

Now, having settled that...

What was his alignment?

Spoiler: Well...

In the first game, Friends and Enemies and Enemies, he was scum.
In the second game, his first game on site, he was town.

And there you have it.

And let me tell you.

To me, this matches the town game to a T.

For a start, while I don't think ploben's scum for that reason, I do think ploben is scum, so his 53 really spoke out as being good insight. 75 is not scum bravado. It is town playing nonchalantly, unafraid of what others will say. 104/134 (especially 134) is

closer

to my reason for scumreading ploben than anyone else has gotten. It's not so much the act itself, but the way it was done (I'll talk about that more when I do my ploben case) plus the follow-through, and karnos there is beginning to latch onto that. 116 is correct: anyone, at any point in the game, can claim, "but my scummy behavior was to catch scum in a trap!". 159 latched onto some of my initial issues with Dunnstral. (As per the trend, more on that when I make my Dunnstral case.)

Around 228/229, karnos comes under some fire, and there he manages to defend himself well. karnos was far from the only player to go after ploben, but he decided instead, in 240, to pursue BTD6. Though I disagree with his read there, that move was undeniably town. 247 is dead on the money. 254 was town in how he continued his ploben push, but is not dropping BTD6. 274 is dead on the money about Dunnstral. (Again, more on that later.) 275 was also a valid point. karnos was building a Dunnstral-ploben scumteam, without even realizing he was building a Dunnstral-ploben scumteam. 300 does use emotional feelings on players a little more than hard reasoning...but that is ALSO something that

is incredibly hard to fake

for scum. Instead, it is FAR more likely to come from town, not realizing they're doing this.

The bitterness in 305 is tangible, and also raises a valid point about ploben's push. I understand perfectly his feelings in 317: while not a problem for me this game, there have been plenty of town games where I've struggled to get

any

townreads, with most players as varying degrees of scumreads. I understand the thought, then, of "these players look more scum to me than this player, so if this player is scum, we lose". He also defended himself VERY well from duppin's attack. 325 is also a post I don't see a player making as scum. He explained how he's approaching the game very well in 328, and again, that's not a post you see often from scum. 416 is another great explanatory post.

All of the people on the karnos wagon I feel have skimmed his posts, looked at them on the surface, picked up on trivial details, and gone "oh, must be scummy". But I feel like none of them have actually

looked

at the posts, and tried

understanding

the posts. When you do that, I find it hard to see anything OTHER than town.

[Dunnstral]

Just skimming and without reading the rest of your post (or cheating), first link is town, second link is mafia?

[Dunnstral]

I was wrong

[Ranger]

For Shadow_step, the initial reason I had my read has been explained. But as for why it remains even after the mod has explicitly said my reason was wrong...well, for a start, I haven't liked any of the pressure on him.

But further, his entrance into the game, 33, is something that I currently believe is something he'd be more likely to do as town than as scum, albeit only just. I really liked his inquiry towards Dunnstral in 65. Where the townread REALLY kicks in though is with 231: that is

exactly

what my issue was with Alpaca. As in, while I'll be restating it when I get to Alpaca, Shadow_step perfectly vocalized my feelings before I had actually vocalized my feelings. (This is the advantage to my readslists. He had no way of knowing that was my reasoning.) There was suspicion on ploben. Alpaca linked to something, attempting to defuse suspicion somewhat, but did literally nothing else

at all

. 294 is a great continuation of the Alpaca case as well. Additionally, while he acknowledges the scumminess behind karnos, he does

not

pursue him, instead asking for support on Alpaca.

This is why he's town. He's doing his own thing, and doing it very,

very

well.

[Dunnstral]

I think I'd be more inclined to believe you if your scum pool wasn't me and all my town reads

[Ranger]

Just skimming and without reading the rest of your post (or cheating), first link is town, second link is mafia?

This would have meant something if, as instructed, you said which his play was closer to: the first, or the second.