Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[Ranger]

Ranger brushing off 764 as fluff is slightly baffling

764 is a post you made, containing three questions addressed to Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on you.
That post, therefore, did nothing to alter my views at all.

And is therefore fluff.
Any post, regardless of whether it is meant as content or not, which does not influence my viewpoint of a player is a fluff post, because by virtue of not influencing my viewpoint of a player, it is a post that I could skip and be none the worse for it. It doesn't matter if you're posting picture of bunnies or if you're asking questions that don't mean anything to me; both are equally as much fluff, because they aren't relevant to my reads. They're meaningless. Empty. Fruitless. Fluff.

[Ranger]

There's no slip. Open 638. I was the mod so I saw karnos' play style. However, to my knowledge, he has not seen mine.

See,

this

is what I was waiting for him to come in and say. I await Dunnstral's and PantherPunt's reactions.

For reference: karnos, BTD6, and I were all players in Open 638, which is why I said any of us could answer for him. In fact, he himself said when he entered the game that he modded for three players. He didn't specify which three, but there you have it.

Ranger you have never played with my town game (not counting this game obviously) and I think you would be much more suspicious of me if you knew who my main was.

Well that's the thing though.

I seriously don't.

I wouldn't ask you to out yourself for me to know.
But short of me trying to track down players I've seen as scum but not as town (which requires basically seeing them only once and never again), I don't have any clue who you are.

Ranger make the case on Dupp and Dunn.

Dunnstral is a given I need (I probably will after I eat dinner), but is Duppin what you meant to say here?

That one's shorter and can be done in a couple minutes.

It doesn't move town or push anything, it just is trying to slip into the background.

What.
This is the polar opposite of what I've done.
I've been in the spotlight literally the whole game.
That's the exact antithesis of slipping into the background. My content has also been hard stances that attract even more attention. In the rare instances where my reads are similar to others, I held them first, for instance, my Kuroi read, when Kuroi inherited the Alpaca slot I scumread.

But she hasn't been trying to build a townbloc or anything and thinks she caught the full scumteam.

Why would I need to townbloc?

I'm known for many things. But I can't think of a single time I've deliberately tried to form a townbloc as town. I've accepted being

part of

a townbloc. I've given god-tiered townreads before. But I can't recall a single time I've ever townblocked as the leader. It's not my natural style.

However instead of giving those reads, she gave her town reads which don't really matter.

Not just townreads, also leaning scumreads. I also explained why I was holding off: deliberately, to see how others would react. This has given us pages upon pages of additional information we would not have had if I had laid all my cards out on the table at once. There's literally dozens of posts about "Ranger isn't giving her scumreads", with various takes on what that means, usually some flavor of it being a scum tactic yet failing to deliver a believable reason for why.

All that suspicion on me for it, all that because of a deliberate delay? Worth it. If I could do it all over again and do anything different...I wouldn't. Because I've achieved exactly what I set out to do. I'm going to eat first, but I fully intend to give the scumreads some time tonight. (It might not be immediately.)

She is siding with Karos and Chip against Dunn, Ploben and Panther while throwing a townread my way-'misguided town'.

This is backwards. karnos and Chip are siding with

me

against Dunnstral, ploben, and PantherPunt. You apparently have issues with the townread I hold on you, but again. I can't judge you by anything other than what I see. I don't know who you are. So I'm judging what I see. If you have issues with what I see, which do not rely on you knowing who you are, you can go ahead and state them. But most of your issue with how I'm handling you seems to be based on the concept that I'm omniscient enough to have deduced who you are, when I just laid out very explicitly how I don't.

The obvTown Ranger is one than works to a wincon by either building a townbloc or catching scum individually and casing them rather than screwing around like this Ranger is doing.

Seriously, what games do you have with me?

Because that impression of me isn't me at all.

I play every game as I see fit to play it, meaning there's a huge variety in my town game...but not once. Not once, can I think of any game matching what you're describing. Because what you're describing sounds more like my SCUMGAME than my towngame.

[Florestan]

Spoiler:

Added spoiler tags.

[KuroiXHF]

UNVOTE:

If Ranger is scum, he is still more pro town than most of the town here. At least more competent.

[Dunnstral]

See, this is what I was waiting for him to come in and say. I await Dunnstral's and PantherPunt's reactions.

Did Kuroi just hard slip

or did I misunderstand something here

You're twisting the situation into something it's not

The rest of your stuff is STILL self meta and you talking about how town you are

[Florestan]

UNVOTE:

If Ranger is scum, he is still more pro town than most of the town here. At least more competent.

she. I actually kinda want to leave Ranger alive one more day just for fun but lynching Ranger d1 is also fun.

[PantherPunt]

Ranger you have never played with my town game (not counting this game obviously) and I think you would be much more suspicious of me if you knew who my main was.

Ranger make the case on Dupp and Dunn. I really don't care about any other content from your slot.

I'll give my Ranger read right now. The god comment was a little tongue in cheek but it remains that Ranger in the very least affects the way the town play unless scum can check it. However Ranger's stuff this game is really essentially boring. It doesn't move town or push anything, it just is trying to slip into the background. She has some god tier townreads which again, the reads on me, Chip, and Karnos were all really good. But she hasn't been trying to build a townbloc or anything

and thinks she caught the full scumteam

. However instead of giving those reads, she gave her town reads which don't really matter. She is siding with Karos and Chip against Dunn, Ploben and Panther while throwing a townread my way-'misguided town'. The issue is that unless this is townRanger that is really certain that she nailed scum she doing more than talking about how all of them are aligned with each other. I have yet to see any case for 2/3 scum besides 'they are aligning' which sucks. The obvTown Ranger is one than works to a wincon by either building a townbloc or catching scum individually and casing them rather than screwing around like this Ranger is doing.

Also my issue isn't that I think that Ranger has perfect reads and I also have perfect reads so they must be the opposite alignment from me, but that me and Ranger approach the game pretty similarly, at least based on the games we play. I don't understand how she could have possibly be scumreading either Panther or Dunn, and even Ploben is kinda weak. All three is insane and I frankly don't believe it.

+1
Fwiw you were town with ranger once but it's not all that relevant to anything this game. Besides that you've seen her play from multiple perspectives

[Ranger]

My duppin read started as nulltown: 10 was an alright RVS, but nothing alignment-indicative one way or another. I got a mild townread off of 27, where the town in nulltown came in.

Absolutely nothing duppin has done since then has been town.
Most of what he's said has been fluff which didn't impact my read one way or another, but there are a couple of things which removed the town from nulltown:

It seemed more like you just trying to get behind an easy wagon (assuming town flip).

duppin has played multiple games with me before. As I laid out in 646, his very first experience with me, which was my very first game mind you, was absolutely

filled

with me going after "easy" lynches. I was town. They were (almost) all scum. (I did go for the "easy" lynch of Brunneis who was town, but I realized they were town and turned the game around from there.) By that game alone, he should know I don't care for the "easy" idea. He has had three other experiences with me: 636, town, I went after easy lynch Postie (scum). Buzzfeed UPick, scum, I avoided going after the easy lynch. Diffusion of Power, scum, there were no easy lynches so all of them were hard-fought. In short, his experience with me is that he should know I don't go for easy lynches as scum, and don't care as town.

I feel a bit better about your slot now though, after your last couple of posts.

He goes from this^ to this:

Still quite suspicious of Ranger, especially not too fond of her interactions with Panther.

Without explanation. He was feeling better about me, then suddenly is strongly suspicious of me, especially after others expressed interest in voting me.

All-in-all: later bits look bad, but other players look worse.

If you don't mind, I'm going to eat a big meal now.

[PantherPunt]

I said I would check out Ranger, and I have. If you want to skip the wall, just scroll to the bottom and I'll give you my read:

How did you get a read on Shadow_Step on page 1?

Two sources.
First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.
Second, and using less controversial logic, 17 didn't look like an RVS vote on a scumbuddy.

Going through again, this is the first thing that I've read that I've had an opinion on, and I agree.

*snip*

VOTE: ploben.

In this entire post, you haven't spoken to or about Ploben, yet it ends with a vote. You can see how it throws me off balance.

ranger has given no content. she will argue that her read lists are content. I will argue that that's bullshit because she has failed to show her thought process behind any of those reads

You of ALL people know this.
As in.
Of every player in the game.
No player knows this better than PantherPunt thanks to his Ranger experience.
That a lack of explanation is not an absence of ability to show explanation.
It is a willing choice, to put off explaining until a time of my choosing.

Why do I say he of all people knows this?
Because he was the victim of my vengekill in Longnight.
I did basically zero explaining of my reads while alive.
I even self-voted.
After I was hammered, I gave some, but not much.
Most of my commentary was in the vengeful/twilight/dead thread of that game, where I went into

extensive

length in my analysis, and why I believed what I did.

This is no different, and if he were town, he would

know

it was no different.

I actually agree with Panther on this one. Looking through Ranger's ISO,

she's

not done as much scum hunting as I'd hope

she

would - as

she

usually does. Either,

She

even admits it. It's scummy or

she's

having a off game. (And I get it, I'm having an off game, myself. Maybe it's because I'm not good at replacing into games.)

Okay, let's start with karnos.
Compare his iso this game to two isos:
this game,
And this game.

Which of those two games does his iso look closer to?

Now, don't cheat and look at his alignments in those games. One's a town game, another a scum game. Tell me, which do you think is which, and which do you think his play is closer to this game?

Done that?

Okay.

Now.

I'm about to give you the answer.

So absolutely don't read this far into my post until you've done the above exercise.

Now, having settled that...

What was his alignment?

Spoiler: Well...

In the first game, Friends and Enemies and Enemies, he was scum.
In the second game, his first game on site, he was town.

And there you have it.

And let me tell you.

To me, this matches the town game to a T.

For a start, while I don't think ploben's scum for that reason, I do think ploben is scum, so his 53 really spoke out as being good insight. 75 is not scum bravado. It is town playing nonchalantly, unafraid of what others will say. 104/134 (especially 134) is

closer

to my reason for scumreading ploben than anyone else has gotten. It's not so much the act itself, but the way it was done (I'll talk about that more when I do my ploben case) plus the follow-through, and karnos there is beginning to latch onto that. 116 is correct: anyone, at any point in the game, can claim, "but my scummy behavior was to catch scum in a trap!". 159 latched onto some of my initial issues with Dunnstral. (As per the trend, more on that when I make my Dunnstral case.)

Around 228/229, karnos comes under some fire, and there he manages to defend himself well. karnos was far from the only player to go after ploben, but he decided instead, in 240, to pursue BTD6. Though I disagree with his read there, that move was undeniably town. 247 is dead on the money. 254 was town in how he continued his ploben push, but is not dropping BTD6. 274 is dead on the money about Dunnstral. (Again, more on that later.) 275 was also a valid point. karnos was building a Dunnstral-ploben scumteam, without even realizing he was building a Dunnstral-ploben scumteam. 300 does use emotional feelings on players a little more than hard reasoning...but that is ALSO something that

is incredibly hard to fake

for scum. Instead, it is FAR more likely to come from town, not realizing they're doing this.

The bitterness in 305 is tangible, and also raises a valid point about ploben's push. I understand perfectly his feelings in 317: while not a problem for me this game, there have been plenty of town games where I've struggled to get

any

townreads, with most players as varying degrees of scumreads. I understand the thought, then, of "these players look more scum to me than this player, so if this player is scum, we lose". He also defended himself VERY well from duppin's attack. 325 is also a post I don't see a player making as scum. He explained how he's approaching the game very well in 328, and again, that's not a post you see often from scum. 416 is another great explanatory post.

All of the people on the karnos wagon I feel have skimmed his posts, looked at them on the surface, picked up on trivial details, and gone "oh, must be scummy". But I feel like none of them have actually

looked

at the posts, and tried

understanding

the posts. When you do that, I find it hard to see anything OTHER than town.

First off, I don't trust Ranger's meta - at least the way

she

presents them.

She's

a lot of things, a lot I don't like about

her

, but

she's

not dumb and I won't believe for a second that

she

plays games one game at a time. I feel that

she

forges

her

meta by using different play styles each game

No, I can't prove that and it's all gut.

The only thing I can prove is

her

play in Open 638 - Friends and Enemies (And Enemies.)

She's

been a lot less out aggressive and a lot more agreeable. I find

her

play similar this game. In Open 638,

she

was scum. I'm having a scummy vibe on

her

.

HOWEVER, I do actually all of

her

reads, because if I was ever scum with Ranger, I'd expect

her

to read me the exact way

she'd

read me if

she

were town. This means that I'd expect

her

to bus me if I fucked up.

Tl;dr, Lean scum on Ranger, but I have harder scum reads.

My hope is tomorrow that I'll do some re-reading before I post my read list.

Gender mix up intentional distancing imo

[PantherPunt]

Ranger brushing off 764 as fluff is slightly baffling

764 is a post you made, containing three questions addressed to Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on you.
That post, therefore, did nothing to alter my views at all.

And is therefore fluff.
Any post, regardless of whether it is meant as content or not, which does not influence my viewpoint of a player is a fluff post, because by virtue of not influencing my viewpoint of a player, it is a post that I could skip and be none the worse for it. It doesn't matter if you're posting picture of bunnies or if you're asking questions that don't mean anything to me; both are equally as much fluff, because they aren't relevant to my reads. They're meaningless. Empty. Fruitless. Fluff.

So kuroi giving a read on karnos then immediately doubling back and contradicting everything about what he said when questioned about it.... That's of no interest to you? And does not alter your opinion on him?

I see

[KuroiXHF]

UNVOTE:

If Ranger is scum, he is still more pro town than most of the town here. At least more competent.

she. I actually kinda want to leave Ranger alive one more day just for fun but lynching Ranger d1 is also fun.

That was an auto correct from my mobile post. In my wall, I just forgot. I have a well documented history of fucking up pronouns.

[Ranger]

The rest of your stuff is STILL self meta and you talking about how town you are

Point out every one of these supposed self-metas.
I will talk about what it's really for. (Hint: not self-defense. I use meta as a

weapon

, not a shield.)
Point out every supposed instance of me talking about how town I am.
They don't exist.

You're twisting the situation into something it's not

You were still pushing it as if it were a slip.
Though speaking of which...PantherPunt, after all that talk about it being a hard slip, shuts up and skips over the post in silence after it's shown it wasn't one.

[PantherPunt]

951 where ranger says "look at all the content I created by withholding my scum reads" is a joke right?

Lynch that scumfuck and let's move on to kuroi

[KuroiXHF]

Ranger brushing off 764 as fluff is slightly baffling

764 is a post you made, containing three questions addressed to Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on Kuroi.
These questions did nothing to alter my opinion on you.
That post, therefore, did nothing to alter my views at all.

And is therefore fluff.
Any post, regardless of whether it is meant as content or not, which does not influence my viewpoint of a player is a fluff post, because by virtue of not influencing my viewpoint of a player, it is a post that I could skip and be none the worse for it. It doesn't matter if you're posting picture of bunnies or if you're asking questions that don't mean anything to me; both are equally as much fluff, because they aren't relevant to my reads. They're meaningless. Empty. Fruitless. Fluff.

So kuroi giving a read on karnos then immediately doubling back and contradicting everything about what he

it

said when questioned about it.... That's of no interest to you? And does not alter your opinion on him

it

?

I see

[PantherPunt]

The rest of your stuff is STILL self meta and you talking about how town you are

Point out every one of these supposed self-metas.
I will talk about what it's really for. (Hint: not self-defense. I use meta as a

weapon

, not a shield.)
Point out every supposed instance of me talking about how town I am.
They don't exist.

You're twisting the situation into something it's not

You were still pushing it as if it were a slip.
Though speaking of which...PantherPunt, after all that talk about it being a hard slip, shuts up and skips over the post in silence after it's shown it wasn't one.

Ya there's a plausible explanation for it not being a slip

Kuroi notably has continued to ignore my CONTENT LADEN questions which appear in 764

Ranger, instead of asking me questions, is trying to fight my fire by saying every single thing I do is scummy. It's fun to watch nobody agree with anything she says whatsoever

[PantherPunt]

You and others referred to yourself as a "he"

I'll call you 'it' if desired. Glad you respond about that and not 764 tho

[KuroiXHF]

I've already answered this in 775.

[Dunnstral]

Point out every one of these supposed self-metas.
I will talk about what it's really for. (Hint: not self-defense. I use meta as a weapon, not a shield.)
Point out every supposed instance of me talking about how town I am.
They don't exist.

Like your past 30 posts just look at those

No way you're asking me to point out every single self-meta you've used; easily

over 100

this game

[Ranger]

So kuroi giving a read on karnos then immediately doubling back and contradicting everything about what he said when questioned about it.... That's of no interest to you? And does not alter your opinion on him?

Alright you're asking for me to fight Kuroi's battle for him so I will.

The problem there is assuming Kuroi doubled back and contradicted what he said...when he didn't. He said he can't see karnos as scum. He then said he didn't like post 300. Not liking a post has one possible meaning of "I think it's scummy", yes. It also has another meaning of "I just don't think it's a good post". The latter is obviously the implication. You can not like a post a player makes and still think they're town, especially if your dislike of the post isn't "it's bad because I think it's something scum would say", but rather, "it's bad because it's just a bad post which isn't good".

So given that.

Given that reading of Kuroi's posting.

Yes.

Your post questioning him did nothing to change my read on him, or my read on you.

[KuroiXHF]

Dunnstral, do you think I've still hard slipped?

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral, do you think I've still hard slipped?

No

I did ask if it was possible I had misunderstood after all, which is what seems to have happened. Trying to twist it into me pushing on you is a stretch.

[Dunnstral]

Hmm, this got good.

I assume you'll chime in later. Care to vote Ranger back to L-2? Kuroi has slipped off

[Ranger]

951 where ranger says "look at all the content I created by withholding my scum reads" is a joke right?

962 where PantherPunt says "not immediately revealing everything is bad" is a joke, right?

Ranger, instead of asking me questions, is trying to fight my fire by saying every single thing I do is scummy.

Not everything. Just most!

Like your past 30 posts just look at those
No way you're asking me to point out every single self-meta you've used; easily over 100 this game

Oh, I am dead serious.
Point it out.
Every one.
Use a spoiler tag if you're concerned about length.

You're getting my scumcases tonight, after I eat, so what's one more thing from me?

Surely, if your belief is that refusing to give content could not in ANY possible way be protown, you should divulge it all, right?

[KuroiXHF]

Dunnstral, do you think I've still hard slipped?

No

I did ask if it was possible I had misunderstood after all, which is what seems to have happened. Trying to twist it into me pushing on you is a stretch.

I'm thinking at this point, most people currently on me are just looking for any possible reason to get me lynched.

As in...

If I say something that could possibly be construed as if I said something scummy or contradicted myself or double backed, they'll take it that way.

However...

If I say something that is townie, it's not factored in.

I actually want to say I've done more scum hunting than many others, despite the fact that I've only relatively recently joined in. I'm actually certain some are hiding in the shadows. When I have more time tomorrow, I'll dig deeper.

[Florestan]

Ranger you have never played with my town game (not counting this game obviously) and I think you would be much more suspicious of me if you knew who my main was.

Ranger make the case on Dupp and Dunn. I really don't care about any other content from your slot.

I'll give my Ranger read right now. The god comment was a little tongue in cheek but it remains that Ranger in the very least affects the way the town play unless scum can check it. However Ranger's stuff this game is really essentially boring. It doesn't move town or push anything, it just is trying to slip into the background. She has some god tier townreads which again, the reads on me, Chip, and Karnos were all really good. But she hasn't been trying to build a townbloc or anything

and thinks she caught the full scumteam

. However instead of giving those reads, she gave her town reads which don't really matter. She is siding with Karos and Chip against Dunn, Ploben and Panther while throwing a townread my way-'misguided town'. The issue is that unless this is townRanger that is really certain that she nailed scum she doing more than talking about how all of them are aligned with each other. I have yet to see any case for 2/3 scum besides 'they are aligning' which sucks. The obvTown Ranger is one than works to a wincon by either building a townbloc or catching scum individually and casing them rather than screwing around like this Ranger is doing.

Also my issue isn't that I think that Ranger has perfect reads and I also have perfect reads so they must be the opposite alignment from me, but that me and Ranger approach the game pretty similarly, at least based on the games we play. I don't understand how she could have possibly be scumreading either Panther or Dunn, and even Ploben is kinda weak. All three is insane and I frankly don't believe it.

+1
Fwiw you were town with ranger once but it's not all that relevant to anything this game. Besides that you've seen her play from multiple perspectives

Holy shit I forgot about that game. Ranger posted nothing and I stank.