Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[duppin]

Eh apologise for the failed quotes.

[duppin]

Seeing as this game has just finished, this is the main reason I think Dunnstral is town. I encourage any town who is scumreading him to check this because I was scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly this game and we were both town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66300

While I do admit I haven't seen Dunnstral as scum yet, he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one.

[PantherPunt]

I wouldn't really expect for him to be "dumbtelling" right out the gate

This in 111 is inconsistent as well, given 99: if Chip Butty is town for dumbtelling, why did Dunnstral scumread karnos for dumbtelling?

you're going to have to show where Dunn scumread karnos for dumbtelling...afaict this is fabricated.

snipping the rest...
This is the type of pbpa that scum do. Where they take nearly every post by someone and construe it to be scummy. No real evaluation. Just trying to show you via every single post that a person is scum.

Compare it with mhsmith's thing where he calls some posts towny and some scummy and then comes to a conclusion based on the overall body. Ranger is doing the 'every post is scum look!' approach and it's a scum trait (have been both guilty of it myself and have caught scum on it as well)

[karnos]

Seeing as this game has just finished, this is the main reason I think Dunnstral is town. I encourage any town who is scumreading him to check this because

I was scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly this game

and we were both town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66300

While I do admit I haven't seen Dunnstral as scum yet,

he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one

.

Does anyone else see the obvious logical failure above?

[KuroiXHF]

I don't see how it's not logical.

Duppin is saying Dunnstral is town when he plays poorly, and that he is playing poorly here.

[Chip Butty]

So, duppin was 'scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly' in that other game, and says 'he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one' but that he hasn't 'seen Dunnstral as scum yet"' in this game.

That's one inconsistency...

[Chip Butty]

I dunno - I'm going to have to look at that other game to see how duppin learned Dunn's alignment. If it was a flip at the end and the game just ended, it wouldn't explain anything really.

[PantherPunt]

Seeing as this game has just finished, this is the main reason I think Dunnstral is town. I encourage any town who is scumreading him to check this because

I was scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly this game

and we were both town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66300

While I do admit I haven't seen Dunnstral as scum yet,

he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one

.

Does anyone else see the obvious logical failure above?

I don't see how you're confused.

Duppin was scumreading Dunnstral in that game. It turned out they were both town.

Dunnstral is playing the exact same way here.

That is why Duppin thinks Dunnstral is town in this game.

[PantherPunt]

So, duppin was 'scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly' in that other game, and says 'he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one' but that he hasn't 'seen Dunnstral as scum yet"' in this game.

That's one inconsistency...

saying he "hasn't seen Dunnstral as scum yet" means he doesn't know Dunn's scum meta...

as in... "don't have a point of reference for what Dunn's scum game looks like, but that was his town game and it looks just like this"

[mhsmith0]

I will be away for most of the day today but I read up to Ranger starting her case on me.

The only thing I wanted to respond to right away is...

1247 - no clue where that BTD6 as wolf read came from. especially with all the earlier defending. almost like ploben wants to distance himself from that slot or something.

I'm really glad mhsmith brought this up because this read of mine is out of no where and he seemed to be the only one to pick up on it. I'm thinking that's probably pretty town as he is paying attention.

Anyway, it's not going to make me look good, considering my stance on meta. So I'll hide it behind a spoiler tag...

Spoiler: BTD read

I just finished Newbie 1708 with BTD and his play style there is nowhere near his play style here. I was lynched the first day I replaced and I think he was lynched the very next day. We were both VT.

BTD would be last on my current scum list because of this.

Basic investigation reveals that btd flipped WAY earlier in that newbie game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7957771
It's one thing for ploben to not want to talk about it before the game was over (though it was over 6/8) but btd flipped earlier in the game. And to even if you do buy the "don't let meta infirm the read, even silently, while game is still active" bit, plobens read fm btd came on 6/12. Ploben was still defending btd between 6/8 and 6/12, notably at 1045, and voted a bunch of people other than btd. Btd was also off his 6/9 lynchable list at 785. Again, it's just not a believable reads transition. It reads way more as strategic.

I suppose it's possible ploben pocketed btd earlier and is now trying to frame him with this, but it seems likelier that they're teammates and this was intentional distancing once the gig was up.

[PantherPunt]

Dunnstral's 263 showed continued buddying of Florestan as well.

He is also treating his main scumread, karnos, as if town in 268.

I have to call this out because you continually say someone is treating someone as town...and you have no fucking clue what you're talking about if town, or you're intentionally misconstruing it to an EXTREME level as scum. Asking someone for their reads on other people is not treating that person as town. Period.

Justify your disagreement with me.

[KuroiXHF]

That makes a lot of sense to me. I could buy a Ploben team with BTD6. They've made little connection with one another.

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler:

I will be away for most of the day today but I read up to Ranger starting her case on me.

The only thing I wanted to respond to right away is...

1247 - no clue where that BTD6 as wolf read came from. especially with all the earlier defending. almost like ploben wants to distance himself from that slot or something.

I'm really glad mhsmith brought this up because this read of mine is out of no where and he seemed to be the only one to pick up on it. I'm thinking that's probably pretty town as he is paying attention.

Anyway, it's not going to make me look good, considering my stance on meta. So I'll hide it behind a spoiler tag...

Spoiler: BTD read

I just finished Newbie 1708 with BTD and his play style there is nowhere near his play style here. I was lynched the first day I replaced and I think he was lynched the very next day. We were both VT.

BTD would be last on my current scum list because of this.

Basic investigation reveals that btd flipped WAY earlier in that newbie game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7957771
It's one thing for ploben to not want to talk about it before the game was over (though it was over 6/8) but btd flipped earlier in the game. And to even if you do buy the "don't let meta infirm the read, even silently, while game is still active" bit, plobens read fm btd came on 6/12. Ploben was still defending btd between 6/8 and 6/12, notably at 1045, and voted a bunch of people other than btd. Btd was also off his 6/9 lynchable list at 785. Again, it's just not a believable reads transition. It reads way more as strategic.

I suppose it's possible ploben pocketed btd earlier and is now trying to frame him with this, but it seems likelier that they're teammates and this was intentional distancing once the gig was up.

this is a pretty good post...marinating on it

[PantherPunt]

ooph. no nested spoilers, right

[PantherPunt]

@mhsmith
Is BTD any less scummy if I flip town?

idk about them both being scum though...this isn't something I expect one scum to say about another

though I don't understand the motive of the post at all by ploben regardless of his alignment

[mhsmith0]

I wouldn't really expect for him to be "dumbtelling" right out the gate

This in 111 is inconsistent as well, given 99: if Chip Butty is town for dumbtelling, why did Dunnstral scumread karnos for dumbtelling?

you're going to have to show where Dunn scumread karnos for dumbtelling...afaict this is fabricated.

snipping the rest...
This is the type of pbpa that scum do. Where they take nearly every post by someone and construe it to be scummy. No real evaluation. Just trying to show you via every single post that a person is scum.

Compare it with mhsmith's thing where he calls some posts towny and some scummy and then comes to a conclusion based on the overall body. Ranger is doing the 'every post is scum look!' approach and it's a scum trait (have been both guilty of it myself and have caught scum on it as well)

Cool, but are you actually reading ploben as town? Because this seems more of a playstyle accusation on ranger than a true AI thing. Some people mix in good and bad from an ISO, some people focus on what builds their case. I don't especially think this particular point is meaningful evidence against her.

I mean, I DO think her "it's a Panther/Dunn/plob team" read is undisciplined, both because you usually don't want to try and catch the whole team day one and because that hypothetical team would be playing TERRIBLY (if this is the team, you know I'll needle you pretty badly about this going forward ). But I also don't know her well enough to know if this is legit AI on her end or not.

Ps not to be a major asshole about it, but if ploben really is your teammate (and I legit don't know what your alignment is), then you should have just bussed. Unless he's like a PR or something. In which case my condolences for subbing into a spot where you couldn't control the PR choices.

[PantherPunt]

I wouldn't really expect for him to be "dumbtelling" right out the gate

This in 111 is inconsistent as well, given 99: if Chip Butty is town for dumbtelling, why did Dunnstral scumread karnos for dumbtelling?

you're going to have to show where Dunn scumread karnos for dumbtelling...afaict this is fabricated.

snipping the rest...
This is the type of pbpa that scum do. Where they take nearly every post by someone and construe it to be scummy. No real evaluation. Just trying to show you via every single post that a person is scum.

Compare it with mhsmith's thing where he calls some posts towny and some scummy and then comes to a conclusion based on the overall body. Ranger is doing the 'every post is scum look!' approach and it's a scum trait (have been both guilty of it myself and have caught scum on it as well)

Cool, but are you actually reading ploben as town? Because this seems more of a playstyle accusation on ranger than a true AI thing. Some people mix in good and bad from an ISO, some people focus on what builds their case. I don't especially think this particular point is meaningful evidence against her.

I mean, I DO think her "it's a Panther/Dunn/plob team" read is undisciplined, both because you usually don't want to try and catch the whole team day one and because that hypothetical team would be playing TERRIBLY (if this is the team, you know I'll needle you pretty badly about this going forward ). But I also don't know her well enough to know if this is legit AI on her end or not.

Ps not to be a major asshole about it, but if ploben really is your teammate

(and I legit don't know what your alignment is)

, then you should have just bussed. Unless he's like a PR or something. In which case my condolences for subbing into a spot where you couldn't control the PR choices.

I'm back and forth on ploben a lot. reminds me I still haven't read your wall on him bc I was on mobile and I wasn't going to click through all the linked posts

I've been thinking you're pretty blatantly town since you arrived, so it's probably nothing. but assuming you are in fact town, don't say stuff like

this

bc its bad.

[mhsmith0]

Meh, fair on the red point. I was trying to say I was pretty null on you,mbut you're right it didn't come out well.

[PantherPunt]

gotcha. fair enough all things considered

[Chip Butty]

So, duppin was 'scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly' in that other game, and says 'he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one' but that he hasn't 'seen Dunnstral as scum yet"' in this game.

That's one inconsistency...

saying he "hasn't seen Dunnstral as scum yet" means he doesn't know Dunn's scum meta...

as in... "don't have a point of reference for what Dunn's scum game looks like, but that was his town game and it looks just like this"

Yeah, I think that was what he was meaning to say...The bit about how he scumread Dunstral in that other game just got in the way...unless he meant "I scumread Dunn in that other game and he was Town, and I haven't read him as scum in this game, so he must be Supertown!" LOL

I dunno, there was something a bit off to me in that post, and I think I know what it is:

[PantherPunt]

like the ploben case

[PantherPunt]

So, duppin was 'scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly' in that other game, and says 'he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one' but that he hasn't 'seen Dunnstral as scum yet"' in this game.

That's one inconsistency...

saying he "hasn't seen Dunnstral as scum yet" means he doesn't know Dunn's scum meta...

as in... "don't have a point of reference for what Dunn's scum game looks like, but that was his town game and it looks just like this"

Yeah, I think that was what he was meaning to say...The bit about how he scumread Dunstral in that other game just got in the way...unless he meant "I scumread Dunn in that other game and he was Town, and I haven't read him as scum in this game, so he must be Supertown!" LOL

I dunno, there was something a bit off to me in that post, and I think I know what it is:

not to keep answering for him...but to keep answering for him:

I think he meant he scumread Dunn in that other game, up until Dunn flipped. He has townread Dunn this game bc it resembles that game. Though he couldn't say anything about that until now since the game just finished

[Chip Butty]

I stronly encourage those of you who are Town

but pushing Karnos as scum (if there is anyone that fits that description) to read Open 640.

It has ended now

, and Karnos was Town. I had a Town feeling about him during the game, and his posting style here seems to resemble his style in that game. You can see the same long-winded, slightly tortured explanations of the theory behind his posting etc. Also, he did better at me at identifying scum, although the Mod abandoned the game before any of them actually got lynched.

Knowing now that Karnos was Town in that game makes me more confident that he is Town here

, although I have had that feeling pretty much from the start.

Seeing as this game has just finished

,

this is the main reason I think Dunnstral is town.

I encourage any town who is scumreading him

to check this because I was scumreading Dunnstral pretty badly this game and we were both town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66300

While I do admit I haven't seen Dunnstral as scum yet, he is pretty much playing the exact same way as he did in that one.

It's prob nothing, but the echoes between these posts kind of leapt out at me...It's almost as if my post gave him the idea for his...

[Chip Butty]

Not that that is necessarily AI, I guess...

[Chip Butty]

Panther, whsmith: what do you make of ploben's flat-out refusal to comment on duppin's stalwart defense of him, as outlined in my duppin ISO? Particularly after he read Alpaca as scummy for a similarly focussed defense of ploben?