Mini 1802: Paint Mafia Sequel - Game Over!

[TehBrawlGuy]

drawing request: a bunch of sad, terrible squirrels

[lalaladucks]

VOTE: tehbrawlguy

SQUIRRELSQUAD PILE ON

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Laladucks

[pieguyn]

All caught up

VOTE: Nahdia

Her tone is off from the few games I played with her where she was town

And I feel like she's

kiiiinda

poking and prodding at things to seem involved but don't really remember her stating any concrete scum reads/making pushes.

which games are you using as a reference for this? also ftr the last sentence is something I've considered too.

[pieguyn]

tbh Nahdia's reaction to the above Spiffeh post that I quoted is more subdued than I usually expect town to react when they have that argument pushed on them. if I'm in a game with someone who I've played multiple games with and they start pushing me because "my tone is off", my reaction is usually something along the lines of "this isn't any different than how I was in our previous games, what the fuck is going on?". on the other hand, when I'm scum and someone has correctly pushed me because of my tone being off, and I know I haven't correctly emulated the tone that I usually have when I'm town, I know I can't really react that way without looking like obvious scum so I have to kinda sorta shrug it off and hope no one else notices it. which is much more similar to what Nahdia did here.

@Nahdia:

do you have any response to this, and can you elaborate in more depth on why you think Spiffeh is scum?

actually that combined with what I pointed out on her previously kinda makes me want to lean towards a Nahdia vote, pending TSQ's response and what I see when I look through her games

I could probably vote lala. despite being stream-of-consciousness, her catchup was actually fairly content-light and didn't have much in terms of original content. actually, now that I read it again, I have all sorts of issues with 218 (her reads list), in terms of hedged language/scum being careful with what they're saying. the most obvious one is the read on TBG "TBG seems town but I'm still going to be wary of him for ... no specific reason", which is something that I attribute to scum looking like they're trying to be logical and consider all of the possibilities. the reads on UTL and Nahdia have similar nuances in phrasing/tone that I attribute to the same thing.

nina, gameshow/interview/whatever post was entertaining but uh, the reasoning for the reads was basically just gut - got anything else to back em up now? tone reads awkwardly though could just be newbness i guess... still atm = = = nullscum

this read looks flat-out fake. the major reason is, from what I can tell, lala seems to be a player who forms reads heavily based on tone/gut (I could be wrong on this, if I am correct me), and she literally _in the same post_ handwaved at least one read because of "idk, gut". I could see an argument such as "your reads are bad", but she explicitly fucking calls her out for "not having anything else to back up her reads" - this is a much easier callout to make as scum than town since it's the kind of thing that _looks_ nice and is objectively true, i.e. difficult to question, as opposed to something that you have to argue and back up. I also take issue with the last sentence because there's nothing specific there - usually when town have issues with tone they have at the very least something vaguely specific to back it up (even something such as Spiffeh using town games as a reference), but here there is none. again, it's a stance that is much easier to take and requires less commitment.

shea/tsq, i want you to be town but your posting doesn't look town to me :/ i'm prob wrong about either nina or shea since they're going after each other but i think this slot is more likely = = = scum

in all honesty, this explicitly reads like she's attempting to line up a TSQ/Nina dichotomy when there's no good reason for it - I don't really have any idea of what her thought process behind this conclusion actually was.

[pieguyn]

actually fuck it

vote: lala

i think a lala (or Nahdia) scum flip points pretty strongly to TSQ and Nina both being town. i think that both lala and Nahdia are posturing around this in a way similar to how i would expect scum to behave when lining up lynches - both are mostly just sitting back and fueling it from the sidelines without getting too involved in it either way

[pieguyn]

i have town reads on UTL, dwlee, Ranger, TBG, and maybe Spiffeh pending a few things. this doesn't really help in terms of who the current wagons are, but it's a part of why i don't really want to lynch inside of {TSQ, Nina} anymore even though TSQ still hasn't done jack shit and i don't have a town read on Nina. i really cannot emphasize how dissatisfied i am with 218 as a reads list, and she isn't even the only one who's fucking doing it. i think that if TSQ and Nina are both town, it's something that scum would consider attempting to take advantage of

i would like if people could comment on if they agree/disagree with my thoughts on lala and why.

[Dwlee99]

you pretty much put into words my feeling that lala is scum. all their posts bother me

[TehBrawlGuy]

Agree - that sums up my thoughts on the slot as well. The jokevote on me is cute, but it masks that her last vote was in Post #4. Her slot feels very much like trying to be active without making waves. She's a fine flip, but I still prefer a Nina flip because it's a 2 for 1 on Spiffeh too if Nina flips Scum, which almost ends the game on the spot, and I think Nina's pretty likely to be scum anyway.

[pieguyn]

but I still prefer a Nina flip because it's a 2 for 1 on Spiffeh too if Nina flips Scum

how?

[Dwlee99]

We can reveal someone else but I want a lala lynch.

[pieguyn]

oh, i see it.

/shrug

while i don't think Nina's 106 was a town post, i don't think it's as scummy as you seem to think it is. i've seen posts like that coming from scum but if it's all you have then eh - i think lala's reads list has much more blatantly obvious signs of being fabricated than Nina's did, that have much less likely of an explanation than "town who just wanted to try a different entrance".

i also don't think that your logic for Nina-scum condemning Spiffeh is particularly solid. i've seen more egregious mistakes coming from town who have just derped. i can't think of where OTOH but i know that _i've_ had weird mix-ups like that which have no real logical explanation behind them - sometimes people try to make a reads list and just get two people confused in a way that seemingly makes no sense. it could be that they're both scum (i don't even town read Nina tbh), but if they are, i don't think it's for what you're pointing out.

p-edit: @TBG

[pieguyn]

there's also the point that, *if* Nina is scum here, she could have just been making up reads entirely and was originally planning on listing Spiffeh as one of her "scum reads"

i think that regardless of what Spiffeh's alignment is, that possibility is far, far greater than the possibility that she just happened to "slip"

[Nahdia]

do you have any response to this, and can you elaborate in more depth on why you think Spiffeh is scum?

i dont really see the point in asking someone who never gives explanations to elaborate on something. maybe my tone is off. i play different in different games. what little content spiff has as well as his relative disconnect from this game are the basis for my scumread.

[pieguyn]

i dont really see the point in asking someone who never gives explanations to elaborate on something

that's exactly the reason i'm asking about it

what little content spiff has as well as his relative disconnect from this game are the basis for my scumread.

if you feel this way, then why haven't you tried to engage him at all over his apparent scum read on you? i would expect that if Spiffeh is sitting there with little content, and his first real scum read was a scum read on you which you knew was wrong and potentially disingenuous, then engaging with him over it is exactly the first thing you would want to do in order to draw out more indicative content from him.

i think that instead, you deliberately tried to avoid it out of fear that it would make you look worse

[Nahdia]

ah yes. fear.

did you notice what happened the last time i tried to engage him?

[Nahdia]

u wanna talk about disingenuous, look in a mirror ms 254

[pieguyn]

i'm going to ask you to make this explicit instead of making vague assertions which may or may not address the point i'm actually making

[pieguyn]

also fucking lol if you actually just tried to get out of this by calling me scum

i hope for your own sake that that's not what you actually meant by that post

[Nahdia]

no, im not callin u scum. im callin u disingenuous. town can do that, sometimes.

shea/tsq, i want you to be town but your posting doesn't look town to me :/ i'm prob wrong about either nina or shea since they're going after each other but i think this slot is more likely = = = scum

in all honesty, this explicitly reads like she's attempting to line up a TSQ/Nina dichotomy when there's no good reason for it - I don't really have any idea of what her thought process behind this conclusion actually was.

this is what im referring to.

[pieguyn]

the part I take issue with is specifically "i'm prob wrong about either nina or shea since they're going after each other". that just read like a bullshit throwaway statement she threw in as an afterthought, rather than having any kind of thought process behind it. I don't understand why, if she thought this, she didn't actually stop to give it any consideration when analyzing the game. nowhere in her reads list or in her catchup did she ever actually try to address the interactions between those two or figure out which one she was wrong on - she was perfectly content just calling them both scum and leaving it at that.

again, it is something that points more to her just posturing here

also I still don't understand what you're trying to say in 265.

[Nahdia]

the part I take issue with is specifically "i'm prob wrong about either nina or shea since they're going after each other". that just read like a bullshit throwaway statement she threw in as an afterthought, rather than having any kind of thought process behind it. I don't understand why, if she thought this, she didn't actually stop to give it any consideration when analyzing the game. nowhere in her reads list or in her catchup did she ever actually try to address the interactions between those two or figure out which one she was wrong on - she was perfectly content just calling them both scum and leaving it at that.

anyone reading the game can comprehend why someone skimming to catch up would set a dichotomy between those two slots. you don't have to agree with it, but you're essentially suggesting ducks pulled it out of nowhere. if that's not disingenuous, it's ignorant.

again, it is something that points more to her just posturing here

possibly, but i see the potential town thought process as extremely obvious whereas you're implying it's invisible.

also I still don't understand what you're trying to say in 265.

you're suggesting i fear elaboration on a scumread on me from a guy who had 5 minutes prior answered just "Gut" when I asked him to spell out a townread. ridiculous.

[pieguyn]

anyone reading the game can comprehend why someone skimming to catch up would set a dichotomy between those two slots. you don't have to agree with it, but you're essentially suggesting ducks pulled it out of nowhere. if that's not disingenuous, it's ignorant.

you're misinterpreting my point

it is possible that a town player might see two slots pushing each other and "set" a dichotomy, yes

my issue with it is twofold:

1. the complete lack of anything at all towards resolving it. I don't really care if you think it's "ignorant" to think someone might form a dichotomy between two players. it's flat-out common sense that just accepting something like "this is TxS" is narrow-minded at best and completely fucking stupid at worst. there is the possibility that you're just wrong and both players are town - which is something most people know to be disastrous, i.e. TxT arguments leading into chain mislynches ... there is the possibility that scum is pushing at least one of the lynches ... there is the possibility both players are scum ... situations like this are much more nuanced than "this is TxS". she just wrote it off as "I'm probably wrong on one of TSQ/Nina but I have no idea which one I'm wrong on", and left it at that. there was no follow-up on it, no pointed questioning aimed at confirming whether she was, in fact, wrong on one of them or which one she was wrong on outside of one really vague question to TSQ which was _before_ the TSQ/Nina fight even happened. the thought process she displayed had no depth to it at all, which is more indicative of scum than town.

2. even if it is possible, it's a weird thing to focus on from a town POV. town players don't usually see an argument and, with no analysis of what is actually being said in the argument, think "one of these people is scum". that just isn't something that happens. if someone sees an argument, between two scum reads, and starts thinking that they might be wrong about them, the obvious thing to do is to start analyzing and trying to break down what is actually being said so they can see who is actually in the right in the argument, who looks more like they're BS'ing the reasons for the other person being scum, who seems defensive, the compositions of the two wagons, and so forth. that kind of thing should be a major point of contention for someone who's scum reading both players and apparently thinks that something in there is compelling enough to warrant them not being scum together, but she didn't comment about any of the things I would expect her to be focusing on if she was town here: Nina's read on TSQ's entrance, TSQ's read on Nina (in particular the thing about "role fishing", which has been a huge topic of conversation), my scum read on TSQ, TBG's stance on Nina being linked to Spiffeh, or anything like that.

on the other hand, from a scum POV, it is clearly beneficial to try to get people to buy into a bullshit argument between two town players by reinforcing the notion that there's scum in the argument. and if you're going to do something like this, it usually looks very similar to what lala did: push vague scum reads on both of them individually without actually committing to a firm stance in the argument. (Ranger and Spiffeh should remember this all too well. )

that's what my issue is. saying it was because she "pulled it out of nowhere" isn't even close to my point - it's that the way it was done isn't remotely town. the way in which she formed her reads on both of them individually wasn't organic and there was much less follow-up on it (read: absolutely none) than I would expect from town who actually had conflicting feelings about their reads there

you're suggesting i fear elaboration on a scumread on me from a guy who had 5 minutes prior answered just "Gut" when I asked him to spell out a townread. ridiculous.

even if "gut" townreads weren't fairly common, this doesn't really address the point I'm making - the point is that it would be a bad situation *if* he started talking about the read on you and it started gaining traction. logically, it would be better for you not to even risk a situation like that coming up unless it was necessary, which it wasn't (as he wasn't pressuring it very hard). on the other hand, engaging him about the read on you is a natural next step from a town POV: if you were scum reading him based on his lack of content, and his first real "content" was a scum read on you which you knew was wrong and probably disingenuous, then hell yes you would attack it.

[Nahdia]

ok first off i think you misinterpreted a bit of what i said but beyond that it's like wow i pretty much disagree with everything you just wrote.

[Nahdia]

and i mean, spiffy kind of did already explain his scumread on me. and i dont really think anything he said was particularly unfair. so yeah.