Newbie 1717: Newbies Through the Looking Glass (Game Over)

[Postie]

VOTE: Accountant

Postie, what's your Snoe read?

Not sure. His catch-up seems very safe, so I can't make much of it. I'll do a metadive to see if he's usually like that.

[Simoyd]

Simoyd, can you give context for the quote?

Sure:

I didn't need to do any more defense of myself when Accountant had given basically the same defense I would've given, why put in the extra time?

Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv

^ He effed up the quote in 260, so I fixed it in my quote

But like IV said, you contradicted yourself:

260: Lycan continues on IV. I think Lycan is tunneling here, but it may be townish tunneling. Lycan says “Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv”, which is true but ignores that IV may be as busy as Lycan is.

I guess scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup

[snoe]

Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

[innocentvillager]

I can't figure out what you're saying by this post, decrypt it for me plz?

Sure... I considered you or Mizzy as directing attention towards Meepo/Accountant/Grace for no reason. Mizzy offered a lot more and seemed well enough in line with her usual play. You left a question that was already answered twice and it seemed clear to me that you were happy if people kept talking about useless things. At this point, the IC was busy ripping into a newbie and another newbie had no idea what was going on. It's fine if they wanted to have a go at one another, but others needed to drag more people in this. I stepped up to the plate and chose you.

If you're referring to the question answered twice, are you seriously still scumreading me for my "wtf are you guy srs" post or whatever? I already clarified what I meant by that, and it wasn't the same meaning as the previous questions asked. READ. MY. POSTS.

Happy if people kept talking about useless things? I made a whole post where I told people to STOP posting useless things! Why don't you read my posts?

Okay sure, well if you read my responses I've basically responded to that.

where. because i really, really need to see this rebuttal.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? WHY DON'T YOU READ WHAT I WRITE?? Did 267 just not exist?? Do you only choose to read/respond to the things that benefit you?

I'm so done trying to converse with you. I don't understand how you can't scumread Lycan at this point. Misrepping, not reading posts, insincere meta, tunneling, stretchy reasoning, insincere scumhunting, etc, etc, etc.

I want to apologize for the hostile tone and caps lock, as I got a little emotional, but my frustration remains. I've considered the possibility that I'm confbias tunneling on you, but I've come back time and again in calm states and still think you're likely scum.

VOTE: Accountant

Postie, what's your Snoe read?

Not sure. His catch-up seems very safe, so I can't make much of it. I'll do a metadive to see if he's usually like that.

I did a brief meta of snoe, and what I got from it was basically nothing, since he didn't replace into either of the games and never gave a PbPA in either. I'll probably take another deeper look when I have more time, but let me know what you find.

P-EDIT:

Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

Yes you said that, but you still clearly contradicted yourself. You're still saying that scum have a greater incentive to defend themselves, and only that "it makes for townies to defend themselves as well". This clearly shows that you think scum have more incentive to post while pressured, yet you agree with Lycan's "Scum don't have incentive to post when pressured, obv" statement.

The fact that you contradicted yourself isn't even that scummy (although it definitely is), but your refusal to admit that you messed up makes it worse.

[Postie]

I did a brief meta of snoe, and what I got from it was basically nothing, since he didn't replace into either of the games and never gave a PbPA in either.

Yeah, same. ._.

Oh well. As much I'd like to have an idea about who both of the scum are, a 3-man lynchpool is good enough for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Can someone go check if Pants is more likely to replace as town or scum?

[Postie]

He doesn't seem to have any completed games where he was replaced.

[RadiantCowbells]

Vtown: {Grace}
Towny: {Postie, Harkonnen}
Nulltown: {IV}
Nullscum: {Simoyd, Lycanfire}
Scummy: {Snoe, Accountant}

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm going to go through my four scumreads again and see which I'm thinking is most likely to flip town.

You better be town Postie

[Postie]

Liking me is the obvious scum choice because I'm terrible at this game and obvious newb town.

Strongly townreading Simoyd for this.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't like at all Simoyd playing up their newbiness.

[RadiantCowbells]

Something that I was thinking is that both Pants and Accountant would be sorta scared at me after our last game.

I wouldn't be surprised if Scum!Accountant said that they should bus the other if pressure ever went down.

[Postie]

I don't like at all Simoyd playing up their newbiness.

Just in that quote or anywhere else?

[RadiantCowbells]

They literally do it everywhere in virtually all of their posts.

They also keep trying to play it cool and seem like they're not taking the game seriously which rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not sure if it's scum but I seriously dislike it.

[Postie]

I'm not really seeing it?

[RadiantCowbells]

How else would I get RC to vote with me?

I'm not sure one exists, but did you really expect to yield any fruit for this effort?

Titus has nothing to do with this game. RC's signature says he's a alt of Titus (another member on this forum). Some people read into that meta, but it's a lie so there's no meta to read into.

NAI is "not alignment indicative".

I feel like RC must know that if accountant flips town then RC would be next for lynch (assuming RC isn't NK'd). He even said that he'd be okay with both of them dying after day two. This gives me a town lean on RC (at least until accountant flips).

Getting prodded once then replaced is a town tell right?

*dramatic pause*

Stuff like this. I don't like the approach to the game.

I can write it off as a playstyle dislike thing for now though.

[snoe]

But like IV said, you contradicted yourself:
In post 310, snoe wrote:
260: Lycan continues on IV. I think Lycan is tunneling here, but it may be townish tunneling. Lycan says “Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv”, which is true but ignores that IV may be as busy as Lycan is.

In post 323, snoe wrote:
I guess scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup

P-EDIT:
snoe wrote:
Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

In post 323, snoe wrote:
but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

Yes you said that, but you still clearly contradicted yourself. You're still saying that scum have a greater incentive to defend themselves, and only that "it makes for townies to defend themselves as well". This clearly shows that you think scum have more incentive to post while pressured, yet you agree with Lycan's "Scum don't have incentive to post when pressured, obv" statement.

The fact that you contradicted yourself isn't even that scummy (although it definitely is), but your refusal to admit that you messed up makes it worse.

Oh, I get it now. Okay. If you want to be reductive, I have contradicted myself. However, I would suggest that it’s totally possible that these things are simultaneously true:
1) Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure (paraphrasing Lycan)
2) Scum have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing Sim)
3) Town have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing IV and Sim saying I contradict myself)

In all these cases, I was agreeing with (and, I think, putting up counterarguments to) people making cases based on responses to challenges/questions.

If you want my overall take on this issue, it’s that defending yourself (or others) is NAI in and of itself. There are good reasons for scum to defend and not defend, and for town to defend and not defend, in the kinds of cases I think we are referring to. When someone puts you at L-4, and you're busy, there's no big pressure to defend yourself, in other words.

[Simoyd]

Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure

Can you elaborate on that incentive? I don't understand why scum would be motivated to do that.

[snoe]

Okay, the scumteam is very likely Lycan/snoe.

Why?

I've made my case on Lycan multiple times; I really don't want to do it again, but you want, I can.

Pants's L-1 vote was horrible and way too scummy for an SE.

Agreed, but I will point out that I am an "SE," with gigantic scare quotes, just because this is my fourth game on MafiaScum. I have a feeling that some of the newbies have/had more experience than I do.

Snoe is doing a great job of appearing town, but it looks fake.

At least I'm doing a great job at one thing, but not really.

Finally, here are my notes on reading through the game. They are long - sorry. But I think it’s worth posting them because …
1) One of the few benefits of getting a replacement player is getting a new set of eyes looking at the game. Might help?
2) I need to give you all SOMETHING with which to read my slot. Pants, bless him … didn’t.
3) I usually phone post (meaning I don’t do giant formatted posts like this often) - would like to have this available when I’m on my phone.

Okay, IMO this is just him begging to be townread. If this isn't fake I don't know what is. It's basically posting useless shit {snip}

I

am

begging to be townread,

with reason

- my slot looks pretty bad right now! At least I gave you all something to work with as you decide whether or not to lynch me.

{snip}
Take his read on Mizzy, for example:

Especially posts 30 & 51 in early game; sheeping Acct in 81 & 82.

He does explain 30, 81, and 82 in the notes, but where is 51?? He makes no real mention of 51 in his notes.

I mentioned it here:

51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

[/b]

The notes themselves just give me a huge scumvibe. There's so many accusations and random "I like this post!"s just being thrown around with no weight. As scum, I notice people when they make scummy posts, because I'm really making an effort to look for them. I'm thinking, I know everyone here is town, so every post seems extra towny. The moment I see something not townie, I point it out, so I can come up with an excuse to find people scummy. But that's all it ever is: accusations that die. There's no life to his accusations, no desire to look more into these conflicts, only listing them as conflicts. He picks the one scumread he had for the 3 pages or so since that happens to be the easiest, safest choice without stirring up conflict especially since Mizzy was a) pretty widely accused but more importantly b) has literally replaced out, so there's no one to take the blame. He doesn't even attack Postie at all, just Mizzy for like 3 posts that weren't even that bad. So he's done all this "analysis" where he's throwing scumreads everywhere in his notes, tries to stay impartial to the major conflicts going on but just lists them as "conflicted". This right here, while maybe a bit intangible, is a big deal breaker for me.

Look, I'm calling it like I see it w/r/t my vote for Mizzy/Postie. The scumreads I'm throwing everywhere are the kind of scumhunting signals I would have commented on (or thought about commenting on) if I had been in the game from the beginning.

As far as snoe and Lycan being a scumteam together, I initially thought I saw snoe subtly buddying Lycan, despite listing him under "Conflicted" which was a huge association tell for me (SUBTLE buddying is an association tell, HARD buddying is NI). But I realized while reading through this that he's done this to all four players listed under "Conflicted".

Consider - for a moment - the scenario where I am not sure who's scum. I know it's shocking to have doubts about your own judgment in this game (/s), but what would you do in my shoes? Flip a coin? Pretend you know who's what? Maybe you would. I wouldn't.

[snoe]

Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure

Can you elaborate on that incentive? I don't understand why scum would be motivated to do that.

On day 1, you can escape lynching by having people forget you exist. Make sense?

[Simoyd]

And here I thought 209 was pretty good...

[RadiantCowbells]

Snoe, what do you think about my reads?

[RadiantCowbells]

And here I thought 209 was pretty good...

What's your read on me?

Thoughts?

[snoe]

Addressing various posts:

Good response from IV in #27 questioning the whole dialogue

So he says this.

51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

Yeah but it was just so much so fast and sometimes games like this have a lot of noise that makes it annoying to read. It's foreshadowing that this is going to be an extremely long game, which I don't really like.

I'm like goldilocks and the three bitches. Too much activity and I sit back and skim like a bitch, too little activity and I'll fill the thread with bullshit, otherwise it's just right

But then says this. He agreed with me that it was good to question the dialogue, but he finds it fake when I complain about the noise level?? In what world does that make sense?

I agreed with your argument in #27; I thought you over-sold it in #52. Make sense?

262: IV posts reads. The scum read on Lycan strikes me as OMGUS.

What SE still uses OMGUS as a scumtell? This is a tell that maybe a beginner mafia player would use.

This is my 4th game on MafiaScum or anywhere - so I am still kind of a beginner. But I didn't use it as a scumtell - I noted it as I read the thread and looked at your interactions.

But even so, this has nothing to do with OMGUS. I had been scumreading Lycan for most of the game, and I gave reasons for my scumread and voted Lycan before I made that reads post. You admit yourself that Lycan's initial case on me was asinine and a stretch.

261: IV disrespects the life of a retail worker. This is so wrong: “Bruh how long does it take to read briefly through one or two scum games and get an impression? Probably way less time than it takes to write that post of yours. “

I never disrespected the life of a retail worker. I've worked a couple jobs at the same time before, and it sucks. But while Lycan claims he's so busy, his post count and posting frequency would disagree with that. You can't deny that Lycan has been posting a fair amount, so no matter how busy he is, he clearly could have taken time to briefly read a scumgame of mine instead of post once or twice in the thread. It REALLY does not take that long, and should be what a townie would do if he's so intent on me being scum.

IMHO, it is much less time-consuming to type out a comment than to read through a game - or two games. I shouldn't have taken the "retail worker" dig - I was one too, for many years, and though I'm out of retail I still have to deal with shitty hours etc. So fist-bump on that, all 3 of us. But the LARGER POINT is that calling someone out for not going outside the game to get a meta-read on someone is BS. That is a good thing to do if you have time. However, it can also be a waste of time - I've done it before, and you and others just did it on me, and it sounds like we all got zilch out of the exercise.

[Simoyd]

What's your read on me?

Thoughts?

You're definitely not today's lynch, but certain flips would make me very suspicious later (for example accountant flipping town). Your reads seem consistent with mine, except I'm still working on ISOing IV and lycan. Not sure where they fit in right this second, but they've posted a lot more for me to work with. Will be done in a couple hours, sorry just got back from work.

Other thoughts... uhh not liking snoe's "stream of consciousness" notes. Maybe he just missed some things, but maybe he's trying to spread mis-information...

I'm not following this hate on mizzy. Not sure what the scum tells were there, looked like scum hunting to me...

let me know if you want more detail anywhere