Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[mhsmith0]

UNVOTE: Ranger

Pending what we see from all the replacements. Still my top read, but I'm not going to sit on that vote with three new players coming in.

[BTD6_maker]

Will M&M still be a hydra, or will it be one single person?

[BTD6_maker]

Ya I don't like playing with RC much either sometimes. RC has a tendency to throw elbows if you know what I mean. It can be fun, but RC has a way of just getting to people sometimes.

I agree. RC just says "you're scum" or something along those lines, never with justification, and commonly wron, which has led to my "perpetual scumread" on him. Every time I see RC, I know he's going to be as stubborn as always and detrimental to Town.

Are you saying that your m&m read early in the game was just a play style read? Nothing particular to this game, just an "rc is playing, he must be Mafia" sort of thing?

More like just an "RC is playing, he must be anti-Town". This is irrespective of whether he is Town or scum. I try to make this weak but every game with RC just confirms it.

[mhsmith0]

And why were you scum reading me and ranger again? I'm curious why your opinion of our back and forth seems to essentially be "well one of them must be lying, no strong opinion on which one, so let's lunch them both in either order"

[AlpacaAlpaca]

@BTD why do you think that Smith is scum?

[mhsmith0]

Ranger would you care to elaborate on why you think I'm town for my RVS vote in post 28.

I could easily!
I'm choosing not to. It's a non-issue. Unless you're at risk of being lynched, it's simply not something I need to spend my time on.
...

I don't really accept "I don't feel like it/will take too much time" as a good reason to not cooperate on her reads.

Well, tough.

Even if it's kind of flimsy or meh reasoning, surely it's not that hard?

Of course it's not that hard. I can explain any read on the drop of a hat to at least an adequate level most of the time. In fact, explaining the Alpaca townread would be ridiculously easy.

But when I say I don't feel like explaining.

I mean I don't feel like explaining, and no amount of pushing me to explain will change my mood.
...

Alpaca at this point is purely gut.

Walk me through that Alpaca town read you say you have. You'd stated pretty explicitly early on that there were tangible reasons for it, and you were simply choosing not to explain it. Now it's "purely gut". What changed? Did something cause those earlier reasons to disappear?

[mhsmith0]

So what do you claim?

I am going to go ahead and claim ha u scumfuck rolefisher, cause obviously playing as claimed is easier for town to win. With that I am going to start this game and: VOTE: innocentvillager
He just rubs me the wrong way.

^So basically, he claimed scum.

Ranger, what did you mean by "he claimed scum" here? Did you think that the idea he'd joke around in RVS wouldn't be credible?

[Quaroath]

Vote count 2.7

Ranger - (2) Kappy, drmyshottyizsik
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Music and Mail
mhsmith0 - (3) Ranger, Touka, BTD6_maker

Not Voting - (2) AlpacaAlpaca, mhsmith0

With 8 eligible to vote, is takes 5 to lynch.

Seeking two replacements (Touka, Music and Mail)

Deadline on hold for replacements.

[Ranger]

You'd stated pretty explicitly early on that there were tangible reasons for it, and you were simply choosing not to explain it. Now it's "purely gut". What changed? Did something cause those earlier reasons to disappear?

Time.
Same thing which caused me to back away from the Music and Mail scumread.

[mhsmith0]

Can you talk about your BTD6 town read? They've made two L-1 votes and one hammer vote, and precisely zero of those three votes seem supported by meaningful reasons (maybe with the exception of the L-1 vote on you on day one), or represent a process of BTD taking ownership of those votes. What are you seeing there that makes you think town? Because it looks to me like pretty shameless bandwagoning as opposed to any actual attempt to game solve.

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler: current vca

Day One

M&M wagon high point
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
mhsmith0 - (1)

innocentvillager

Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (1) Music and Mail
Not Voting - (2) Kappy, Touka

Ranger wagon reaches parity
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (3) Music and Mail,

innocentvillager

, Kappy
Not Voting - (1) Touka

Ranger wagon BRIEFLY hits L-1
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (4) Music and Mail,

innocentvillager

, Kappy, Touka
Not Voting - (0)

M&M unvotes, revotes
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (4)

innocentvillager

, Kappy, Touka, Music and Mail
Not Voting - (0)

Alex on IV, BTD6 on Ranger, IV on drmy
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (3) drmyshottyizsik, Ranger, Touka
Music and Mail - (1) mhsmith0
Ranger - (3) Kappy, Music and Mail, BTD6_maker
drmyshottyizsik - (1)

innocentvillager

Lynch
BTD6_maker – (2) AlpacaAlpaca, Music and Mail

innocentvillager

– (5) drmyshottyizsik, Ranger, Touka, Kappy, BTD6_maker
Music and Mail - (1) mhsmith0
drmyshottyizsik - (1)

innocentvillager

Day Two
M&M wagon high point
Touka - (1) Music and Mail
Music and Mail - (3) drmyshottyizsik, BTD6_maker, Touka
Not Voting - (4) AlpacaAlpaca, Kappy, mhsmith0, Ranger

Ranger wagon high point (L-1)
drmyshottyizsik - (2) Music and Mail, drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (1) Touka,
Ranger - (4) Kappy, Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Not Voting - (1) AlpacaAlpaca

mhs counter-wagon high point (L-1)
Ranger - (2) Kappy, mhsmith0
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Music and Mail
mhsmith0 - (4) Ranger, Touka, drmyshottyizsik, BTD6_maker
Not Voting - (1) AlpacaAlpaca

current state
Ranger - (2) Kappy, drmyshottyizsik
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Music and Mail
mhsmith0 - (3) Ranger, Touka, BTD6_maker
Not Voting - (2) AlpacaAlpaca, mhsmith0

Especially important votes:
Day One
126 - Alex puts Ranger at L-1
127 - M&M moves Ranger off L-1
135 - M&M puts Ranger back to L-1
137 - Alex moves Ranger off L-1
152 - BTD6 puts Ranger back at L-1
186 - Kappy puts IV at L-1
211 - BTD6 hammers IV
Day Two
473 - I put Ranger at L-1
482 - Ranger takes herself off L-1
570 - BTD6 puts me at L-1
586 - drmy takes me off L-1

Notes/thoughts:
BTD6 has been bandwagoning like CRAZY so far this game. They've made a LOT of really important votes, basically none of which were justified in any meaningful sense. Two L-1 votes, AND one hammer vote, and he has NEVER taken the time to own those votes or the reasoning behind them. That's pretty terrible. Consider:

L-1 on Ranger: puts in some reasoning (more than any other vote fwiw), hedges like crazy with "Still only weak-moderate but worth voting on" and "It puts enough pressure on Ranger now"

Hammer on IV: the expressed reason is that he thought it was an IV/Ranger team (in previous posts), and that the VT claim was meaningfully scum-indicative (which is transparent nonsense). Also hedges like crazy with "If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

L-1 on me: Hedges with "Not as strong as M&M, but a lone vote on M&M won't accomplish anything at this stage." Once again, they're casting a super important vote, but the substance behind it is just wishy-washy crap.

Also, looking through his ISO, he basically never has a meaningful opinion, he basically never is asking questions of people (much less interesting ones), and there's no evidence anywhere that he wants to solve the puzzle of the game. He has about 60 posts, and I can't find 10 that are meaningfully game-solving. That's pretty much active lurking right there.

Also, I still have no idea how anyone town-aligned could possible look at the lengthy back and forth between me and Ranger and have no opinion beyond "it's probably v/w, no real idea which one, let's just lynch them both". There are substantive accusations (going both directions), that practically beg for an actual opinion on them, and essentially just shrugging at and saying "eh whatever lets just lynch them both in whatever order" is, to me, not a credible reaction.

Overall: VCA given the lack of flips other than IV seems to point to BTD6 as the most suspicious pattern. OTOH, I still really don't like what I've seen from Ranger so far. I think my lynch pool is {BTD6, Ranger} but want to see what the subs have to say at this point.

[Ranger]

Can you talk about your BTD6 town read?

Already did. I don't feel he's scum (gut), and his end of D1 antics suggest town. It is not, however, something I'd bet the game on.

[mhsmith0]

Can you talk about your BTD6 town read?

Already did. I don't feel he's scum (gut), and his end of D1 antics suggest town. It is not, however, something I'd bet the game on.

Beyond the EOD1 antics, do you think they've been game-solving in any meaningful way? I find it odd how devoid of menaingful content their ISO is, especially given their bandwagoning.

Actually, bandwagoning seems to be a bit of a tell from them (although it's a very limited sample size). In open 638, skimming mod posts ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7909566 ) it seems like they bandwagoned a fair amount D1 (before getting lynched); in their two town newbie games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7845419
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7911269
not so much

since you're the one here with meta on them, does that line up with your impression of them from your open game w them?

[innocentvillager]

Can you talk about your BTD6 town read?

Already did. I don't feel he's scum (gut), and his end of D1 antics suggest town. It is not, however, something I'd bet the game on.

Beyond the EOD1 antics, do you think they've been game-solving in any meaningful way? I find it odd how devoid of menaingful content their ISO is, especially given their bandwagoning.

Actually, bandwagoning seems to be a bit of a tell from them (although it's a very limited sample size). In open 638, skimming mod posts ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7909566 ) it seems like they bandwagoned a fair amount D1 (before getting lynched); in their two town newbie games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7845419
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7911269
not so much

since you're the one here with meta on them, does that line up with your impression of them from your open game w them?

Sorry if you've mentioned this already, but how did you feel about BTD6's end of day antics? I e gotten a scum one from BTD in almost every other way, except his end of D1 reactions.

[mhsmith0]

Hmm. Re-reading the EOD1 stuff...

1) The sheer celebratory tone of Kappy/drmy I think sticks out quite a bit in what is a think a pretty believable tone for them. I don't have meta with either, but I'd think that tone in that situation is really hard to fake if they were mafia.

2) Where did the town read for BTD6 in that segment come from? Their posts:
213 pretty dry response to your "scum claim"
214 same
221 basic night action strategy discussion
223 basic night action strategy discussion
225 not a super meaningful response
247 slaps on a "Ranger is tied to IV" read, which is possible for either town or mafia to do
249 completely ignores kappy's point about "gee, how could Ranger have KNOWN that IV was a wolf"
251 doubles down on the irrelevant part of the discussion

I'm not sure how this particularly screams out that BTD6 was town, to be honest.
@Ranger: you'd said that you also had a town read from this on BTD6 (282); what in that set of postings gave you a reasonably confident read on him, and why?

[innocentvillager]

Yeah, I guess looking at it again it looks fakeable.

I'd be down for a BTD lynch too I guess. I'm getting constant scumvibes from that slot.

[BTD6_maker]

Spoiler: current vca

Day One

M&M wagon high point
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
mhsmith0 - (1)

innocentvillager

Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (1) Music and Mail
Not Voting - (2) Kappy, Touka

Ranger wagon reaches parity
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (3) Music and Mail,

innocentvillager

, Kappy
Not Voting - (1) Touka

Ranger wagon BRIEFLY hits L-1
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (4) Music and Mail,

innocentvillager

, Kappy, Touka
Not Voting - (0)

M&M unvotes, revotes
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (1) drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (3) Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Ranger - (4)

innocentvillager

, Kappy, Touka, Music and Mail
Not Voting - (0)

Alex on IV, BTD6 on Ranger, IV on drmy
BTD6_maker – (1) AlpacaAlpaca

innocentvillager

– (3) drmyshottyizsik, Ranger, Touka
Music and Mail - (1) mhsmith0
Ranger - (3) Kappy, Music and Mail, BTD6_maker
drmyshottyizsik - (1)

innocentvillager

Lynch
BTD6_maker – (2) AlpacaAlpaca, Music and Mail

innocentvillager

– (5) drmyshottyizsik, Ranger, Touka, Kappy, BTD6_maker
Music and Mail - (1) mhsmith0
drmyshottyizsik - (1)

innocentvillager

Day Two
M&M wagon high point
Touka - (1) Music and Mail
Music and Mail - (3) drmyshottyizsik, BTD6_maker, Touka
Not Voting - (4) AlpacaAlpaca, Kappy, mhsmith0, Ranger

Ranger wagon high point (L-1)
drmyshottyizsik - (2) Music and Mail, drmyshottyizsik
Music and Mail - (1) Touka,
Ranger - (4) Kappy, Ranger, BTD6_maker, mhsmith0
Not Voting - (1) AlpacaAlpaca

mhs counter-wagon high point (L-1)
Ranger - (2) Kappy, mhsmith0
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Music and Mail
mhsmith0 - (4) Ranger, Touka, drmyshottyizsik, BTD6_maker
Not Voting - (1) AlpacaAlpaca

current state
Ranger - (2) Kappy, drmyshottyizsik
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Music and Mail
mhsmith0 - (3) Ranger, Touka, BTD6_maker
Not Voting - (2) AlpacaAlpaca, mhsmith0

Especially important votes:
Day One
126 - Alex puts Ranger at L-1
127 - M&M moves Ranger off L-1
135 - M&M puts Ranger back to L-1
137 - Alex moves Ranger off L-1
152 - BTD6 puts Ranger back at L-1
186 - Kappy puts IV at L-1
211 - BTD6 hammers IV
Day Two
473 - I put Ranger at L-1
482 - Ranger takes herself off L-1
570 - BTD6 puts me at L-1
586 - drmy takes me off L-1

Notes/thoughts:
BTD6 has been bandwagoning like CRAZY so far this game. They've made a LOT of really important votes, basically none of which were justified in any meaningful sense. Two L-1 votes, AND one hammer vote, and he has NEVER taken the time to own those votes or the reasoning behind them. That's pretty terrible. Consider:

L-1 on Ranger: puts in some reasoning (more than any other vote fwiw), hedges like crazy with "Still only weak-moderate but worth voting on" and "It puts enough pressure on Ranger now"

Hammer on IV: the expressed reason is that he thought it was an IV/Ranger team (in previous posts), and that the VT claim was meaningfully scum-indicative (which is transparent nonsense). Also hedges like crazy with "If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

The VT claim was intended to rule out the possibility that I am lynching a Firefighter. The comment was just an add-on. Also, I was mentioning that if he is a Tree, Town doesn't lose much. That was not in any way my entire justification. My justification was because he was my strongest scumread.

L-1 on me: Hedges with "Not as strong as M&M, but a lone vote on M&M won't accomplish anything at this stage." Once again, they're casting a super important vote, but the substance behind it is just wishy-washy crap.

Yet again, you are someone I am scumreading. I am willing to lynch any of my scumreads.

Also, looking through his ISO, he basically never has a meaningful opinion, he basically never is asking questions of people (much less interesting ones), and there's no evidence anywhere that he wants to solve the puzzle of the game. He has about 60 posts, and I can't find 10 that are meaningfully game-solving. That's pretty much active lurking right there.

Aren't reads a meaningful opinion? I gave my opinion on IV, Ranger, M&M, and now you. How is this not meaningful?

Also, I still have no idea how anyone town-aligned could possible look at the lengthy back and forth between me and Ranger and have no opinion beyond "it's probably v/w, no real idea which one, let's just lynch them both". There are substantive accusations (going both directions), that practically beg for an actual opinion on them, and essentially just shrugging at and saying "eh whatever lets just lynch them both in whatever order" is, to me, not a credible reaction.

I am trying to build a case on you. Expect it some time today.

Overall: VCA given the lack of flips other than IV seems to point to BTD6 as the most suspicious pattern. OTOH, I still really don't like what I've seen from Ranger so far. I think my lynch pool is {BTD6, Ranger} but want to see what the subs have to say at this point.

[Kappy]

Can you talk about your BTD6 town read?

Already did. I don't feel he's scum (gut), and his end of D1 antics suggest town. It is not, however, something I'd bet the game on.

That's no excuse to hide the rest of his play.

[Kappy]

"If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

Thinking about it, this really bothers me. If we lynch a Tree, we're not lynching an Arsonist. Just because they can still talk doesn't justifying lynching trees. Each tree we lunch brings us one step closer to a scum win. I don't know how I missed this Day 1.
VOTE: BTD6

[Kappy]

@Mod: V/LA from 6/27 to 7/5. I may still be on site during that time.

[BTD6_maker]

"If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

Thinking about it, this really bothers me. If we lynch a Tree, we're not lynching an Arsonist. Just because they can still talk doesn't justifying lynching trees. Each tree we lunch brings us one step closer to a scum win. I don't know how I missed this Day 1.
VOTE: BTD6

How many times have I made it clear that I was lynching the person most likely to be an Arsonist? A lynch on an Arsonist is great, a lynch on a Tree is slightly bad, and a lynch on a Firefighter is really bad. I am not advocating lynching people who are 100% guaranteed to be Trees. I am advocating lynching the person most likely to be an Arsonist, while acknowledging that they could still be a Tree.

Again, why do we ask for claims before hammering? It's because lynching a PR is worse than lynching a VT. We try to minimise damage done by a mislynch. However, the primary objective is to minimise the probability of a mislynch by lynching the most likely scum. I did both.

[innocentvillager]

"If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

Thinking about it, this really bothers me. If we lynch a Tree, we're not lynching an Arsonist. Just because they can still talk doesn't justifying lynching trees. Each tree we lunch brings us one step closer to a scum win. I don't know how I missed this Day 1.
VOTE: BTD6

Yeah, this is flimsy logic. Smith's argument was better, but still not great.

[drmyshottyizsik]

VOTE: btd ^6^ scum post

p-edit
Kappy
s point may be weak but look at BTD's reaction

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler: current vca

Day One
...
Hammer on IV: the expressed reason is that he thought it was an IV/Ranger team (in previous posts), and that the VT claim was meaningfully scum-indicative (which is transparent nonsense). Also hedges like crazy with "If you are really a Tree, Town hasn't lost much. You can still be an active scumhunter after death."

The VT claim was intended to rule out the possibility that I am lynching a Firefighter. The comment was just an add-on. Also, I was mentioning that if he is a Tree, Town doesn't lose much. That was not in any way my entire justification. My justification was because he was my strongest scumread.

But that's not what you said, now is it? You SAID that your reasons for reading IV as an arsonist were:
- IV/Ranger team
- VT claim is scum-indicative
So you said that the VT claim was NOT just there to rule out a firefighter lynch, but rather was an active reason for the read. And

My justification was because he was my strongest scumread

is completely ridiculous. WHY was he your "strongest scumread"? One of your two reasons was transparent nonsense (at worst the "tree" claim was null, and in general was likelier to come from town, since mafia is incentivized to fake claim to either delay the lynch or to draw out the actual PR). And the other was mediocre. And yet you thought (or are representing that you thought) that this all added up to enough substance to justify a hammer.
And yes, it is absolutely true that hedging is bad, and hedging as part of your actual vote (especially when a hammer vote) is really bad. This is simply true.
Now, you can continue to argue against something I haven't said (the "That was not in any way my entire justification" bit), or you could meet the case against you head-on. If you're town, you should meet it head-on.

L-1 on me: Hedges with "Not as strong as M&M, but a lone vote on M&M won't accomplish anything at this stage." Once again, they're casting a super important vote, but the substance behind it is just wishy-washy crap.

Yet again, you are someone I am scumreading. I am willing to lynch any of my scumreads.

But that's meaningless. WHY am I being read this way? Empty reads are just as empty as empty votes. You consistently aren't providing substance behind your read. Without substance, the read is nothing.

Also, looking through his ISO, he basically never has a meaningful opinion, he basically never is asking questions of people (much less interesting ones), and there's no evidence anywhere that he wants to solve the puzzle of the game. He has about 60 posts, and I can't find 10 that are meaningfully game-solving. That's pretty much active lurking right there.

Aren't reads a meaningful opinion? I gave my opinion on IV, Ranger, M&M, and now you. How is this not meaningful?

Again, empty reads are just as empty as empty votes. You consistently aren't providing substance behind your read. Without substance, the read is nothing.

Also, I still have no idea how anyone town-aligned could possible look at the lengthy back and forth between me and Ranger and have no opinion beyond "it's probably v/w, no real idea which one, let's just lynch them both". There are substantive accusations (going both directions), that practically beg for an actual opinion on them, and essentially just shrugging at and saying "eh whatever lets just lynch them both in whatever order" is, to me, not a credible reaction.

I am trying to build a case on you. Expect it some time today.

Late D2 is pretty late to finally get around to making a case on someone, all the more so since it's mainly in response to pressure on your slot. But sure, make your case. We're waiting on multiple subs. We have time.

How many times have I made it clear that I was lynching the person most likely to be an Arsonist? A lynch on an Arsonist is great, a lynch on a Tree is slightly bad, and a lynch on a Firefighter is really bad. I am not advocating lynching people who are 100% guaranteed to be Trees. I am advocating lynching the person most likely to be an Arsonist, while acknowledging that they could still be a Tree.
Again, why do we ask for claims before hammering? It's because lynching a PR is worse than lynching a VT. We try to minimise damage done by a mislynch. However, the primary objective is to minimise the probability of a mislynch by lynching the most likely scum. I did both.

But again, that's not what you said. You said at the time that the tree claim was itself scum-indicative (which was nonsense). Your actual hammer vote was, in your own words, due to:
- possible connections between IV and Ranger (the only semi-valid reason you gave, which was in the posts before the hammer)
- the tree claim was explicitly scum-indicative (nonsense)
- hey, lynching a tree really isn't all that bad (hedging)

To quote twc...

I have made this point elsewhere often and I shall make it here. If all you have is anti-town behaviours then lynch on those if you must but sadly most anti-town behaviours are town indicative. Upto and including - so it turned out - Petunia's d2 behaviours. This - in my opinion - is what Palin was lynched on and was the basis of all the grief Ugluk took. They did something(s) you did not like and were unapologetic about it. Only a ballsy scum does that. They exist, but rarely. Ugluk to be fair might be one of them. But scum live more usually in the null-space. They are in the corner of your eye on the edges of awareness until suddenly you realise...in time? or too late?

Lynch on pro-scum indicative behaviours - active lurking, hedging, politicking, weird votes or switches in logic, incongruencies in positions held/advocated and actions taken - things they are doing to stay in the null space.

Palin just had a daft idea and didn't care what you thought about it.

What you are doing in this game is looking to stay in the null space. You've consistently been active lurking, you've hedged (multiple of your votes were actively hedging, you hedged in your "one of ranger/mhs is scum but I can't be bothered to decide which" read), you've made bandwagony votes (rarely if ever with any kind of menaingful justification), etc.

What worries me here is that you're apparently pretty new and this may somehow be within your town game range. But it shouldn't. The stuff you have done should be inside NO ONE's town range.

PS I'm still deciding between BTD and Ranger. I also want to see what the new subs have to say. Not throwing down a vote just yet.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: btd ^6^ scum post

p-edit
Kappy
s point may be weak but look at BTD's reaction

You mean the defensiveness of it or something else?