New York 196: My Game, My Flavor Mafia (Mafia Win)

[Zachstralkita]

@Performer, How would you explain the near townslip deal?

??

Zach what's your read on imp? I'm kidding about him being a tr btw .

another prospective lynch

[Zachstralkita]

Hey, did you guys start a club without me? No fair.

[Varsoon]

Because they claimed mason. It's a clusterfuck to get into when you start doubting the legitimacy of said claim, we can get into that another day.

The annoying thing is that I'm pretty much compelled to agree with you.
As little as I like Dunn AND Titus' play, the Mason claim ensures that the weaklings on this site would never lynch them without an equally strong role-claim contesting theirs. It's lame, but people like to play it painfully safe.

[Performer]

Because they claimed mason. It's a clusterfuck to get into when you start doubting the legitimacy of said claim, we can get into that another day.

The annoying thing is that I'm pretty much compelled to agree with you.
As little as I like Dunn AND Titus' play, the Mason claim ensures that the weaklings on this site would never lynch them without an equally strong role-claim contesting theirs. It's lame, but people like to play it painfully safe.

It sounds like you're saying PRs aren't that important.?

[Zachstralkita]

Because they claimed mason. It's a clusterfuck to get into when you start doubting the legitimacy of said claim, we can get into that another day.

The annoying thing is that I'm pretty much compelled to agree with you.
As little as I like Dunn AND Titus' play, the Mason claim ensures that the weaklings on this site would never lynch them without an equally strong role-claim contesting theirs. It's lame, but people like to play it painfully safe.

I'm very sure we'll have plenty of opportunities to lynch them later, as much as they go on about how obvtown they are.

[Performer]

Zach I still don't get why imp is scum though. Walk me through it.

[Zachstralkita]

Looking back I'm really not a fan of AGar's content post. He attacks Titus largely for pushing with empty reasoning, when he himself in his post gives very little reasoning for much of what he says (he cites posts 89, 367-368, 370-376, 387 and possibly more as bad or terrible or etc but gives no justification, as though those 10+ posts are self-evidently scummy [which they aren't]). In assessing Titus's 447, he immediately jumps to the worst possible interpretation:

Are you really saying because you did something one time in a game when you were scum, that this means he's scum?

when it's fairly evident, I think, that Titus is simply saying that it

can

be scum and attacking it for reasons other than her having done it as scum once (calling it LAMIST) together with the fact that

Titus had already been pushing Zach

which pretty clearly indicates that Titus wasn't pushing Zach with the logic of "I did this once as scum therefore you're doing it as scum." This jumping to the worst possible interpretation of things, IMO, indicates a lack of intellectual honesty in evaluating information, which in turn indicates scum.

His 876 is the worst post ever and nothing he did after that managed to convince me otherwise.

[Zachstralkita]

I still don't get why I'm scum, was I never a townread of yours or did I happen to be scum simply because I " thought " you were scum?

[Zachstralkita]

For all the hype leading up to it, Dunnstral's "case" on Varsoon was utterly shit.

[Varsoon]

@Performer: PRs are important, but the site-meta trends to favoring mechanics far heavier than rhetoric, so much so that the rhetoric of the game often becomes superseded by the mechanics. Claiming masons only renders any sort of leverage to the slots because people think the mechanical advantage of (possible) masons is stronger than any rhetoric that could be thrown down. Even if they are lying about being masons, the fear that we'd lose such a mechanical advantage keeps players from voting there, even when the claimed masons are bringing garbage to the table, rhetorically.

Ultimately, it's weak play. Players should be judged first and foremost for what they bring to the table for town. Dunnstral and Titus have given this town nothing. The Masons claim was awkward and only came out after I suggested it, making me feel as though it was conjured after-the-fact rather than a genuine truth of the game.

If you allow players leverage based solely on the claimed mechanical efficiency of their roles, you will lose any well-built setup.

That isn't to say that mechanical efficiency allowing a player rhetorical leverage has no place in Mafia. If a player can prove their role, or if their claim holds up under rhetorical scrutiny, then, sure, it's all gravy. Even then, a well balanced setup punishes players for claiming outright and rewards players for playing smart with their roles.

I think we should lynch Dunnstral today. If Dunnstral flips as a Mason, we'll know Titus is cleared, which, sure, will inform the nightkill, but it gives us a confirmed town to work with unless scum want to waste a shot killing off already-useless-so-far Titus. On the flip side, if Dunnstral flips anything but Mason, we hit a jackpot.

Think of it this way. We're playing poker. Dunnstral and Titus just went all in on the first hand. Are you going to fold, or will you meet their gambit and call?
I, for one, am a gambling man. I know what I've got up my sleeves, and I'm confident they're bluffing.

[Varsoon]

For all the hype leading up to it, Dunnstral's "case" on Varsoon was utterly shit.

Yeah, so let's lynch Dunnstral so we can be done with this day.

[Zachstralkita]

For all the hype leading up to it, Dunnstral's "case" on Varsoon was utterly shit.

Yeah, so let's lynch Dunnstral so we can be done with this day.

Besides you and me who is ACTUALLY going to help that wagon get to L-0

[Varsoon]

Well, no one, but that's because we haven't counter-claimed masons yet.

[Performer]

@Zach I had you as null up until the Wake interaction, then I had you as an sr of mine , then you explained it, so I put you back as null.

I am having trouble separating personal from objective regarding a couple people in here, and I know that sounds like I should be imprisoned in FM and irl, but I frequently have a hard time understanding people scumreading certain folks. Anyway...going to read Varsoon's wall.

[Varsoon]

I actually think we could get a Dunnstral Wagon to lynch if we campaigned hard enough, though.
For real, for real.

[Zachstralkita]

Well, no one, but that's because we haven't counter-claimed masons yet.

I think we can't sidestep this any further, mason buddy.

[Varsoon]

...going to read Varsoon's wall.

Oh, please, if that's a wall, then I've built some truly monumental towers in my day.

[Varsoon]

Well, no one, but that's because we haven't counter-claimed masons yet.

I think we can't sidestep this any further, mason buddy.

I was REALLY hoping we wouldn't have to out like this.
I crumbed it in my first post, too. :/

[Lapsa]

I think we should lynch Dunnstral today. If Dunnstral flips as a Mason, we'll know Titus is cleared, which, sure, will inform the nightkill, but it gives us a confirmed town to work with unless scum want to waste a shot killing off already-useless-so-far Titus. On the flip side, if Dunnstral flips anything but Mason, we hit a jackpot.

^ i might actually be down for this

[Varsoon]

I HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING.
WHAT'S UP MY N-WORDS?
DON'T WORRY, I'M TOWN
I'VE GOT YOUR BACK.

I've got your 'back' is the clue to look at things from back to front.
What's up my N-words is actually referencing Mason, because if read from back to front, it's Nosam.
Furthermore, in my last game as a Mason (Cohen Brothers Mafia), I was not town despite being in a Masonry.
That's why I said "Don't worry, I'm town" here.

Why would I make such a post without reading anything?
What point does it serve?
Purely role-crumbing.

[Zachstralkita]

Well, no one, but that's because we haven't counter-claimed masons yet.

I think we can't sidestep this any further, mason buddy.

I was REALLY hoping we wouldn't have to out like this.
I crumbed it in my first post, too. :/

I think the legitimacy of our out is overshadowed by the doubt of almost everyone in the game along with Titus and Dunnstral's competing c laim.


In any case, I'll take " Lynch Dunnstral " for 500.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Varsoon]

Lay the vote, then, Lapsa.
VOTE: Dunnstral

[Zachstralkita]

I was going to let Titus and Dunnstral have fun with it for a little, but now their fun is becoming too obstructive to handle.

[Zachstralkita]

I admit, Varsoon, I kinda botched our original " out Day 2 " setup.

All those false interactions I fostered with Titus to make her think I was useless.

God damn it.

[implosion]

@Performer: PRs are important, but the site-meta trends to favoring mechanics far heavier than rhetoric, so much so that the rhetoric of the game often becomes superseded by the mechanics. Claiming masons only renders any sort of leverage to the slots because people think the mechanical advantage of (possible) masons is stronger than any rhetoric that could be thrown down. Even if they are lying about being masons, the fear that we'd lose such a mechanical advantage keeps players from voting there, even when the claimed masons are bringing garbage to the table, rhetorically.

This is such a misrepresentation of why we shouldn't vote the masons.

-The odds of it being a scum gambit are so horrifically low. The risk/reward of claiming masons on d1 as scum is absolutely terrible.
-They are outed as power roles; they are, therefore, likely to be killed at night, meaning we don't have to try to sort them at all.
-If by some miracle they are scum, they will keep surviving nights and they will become more and more likely scum candidates as the days go by, allowing us much more confidence in sorting them later
-If we lynch other scum in that time, then the more scum we lynch, the more unlikely the masons are to be lying, making it easier to sort them later
-At massclaim, if there is a huge abundance of power being claimed, they also become easier to sort then

I'd like to note that by

far

the most important of these points is the first; the rest are just supplementary to it. There are so many reasons that claiming masons on day one has astronomically higher risk than reward for scum.