Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[Derek12]

Dwlee99 having a bad scumgame makes me feel safer.

What.

I'm pretty sure Dwlee's scumgame isn't bad

[Creature]

Maybe not that bad, but enough to see a difference between his town and scum play.

[Dwlee99]

Maybe not that bad, but enough to see a difference between his town and scum play.

*cough*
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=65515

[F-oh-ex]

1.)

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

3.)

Dragon of the West, I am having serious issues of your treatment of Eggman's vanilla townie "crumb."

While Eggman was at L-1 you basically tried to push through the lynch

by attacking his "crumb" for multiple posts, including:

This is where he accused me of trying to push through the lynch. Soo...you were saying?

Anyone in their sane mind would "attack the crumb" because THERE. WAS. NO. CRUMB. Even Eggman admitted a few pages later that he didn't crumb, merely that he set up the RQS with a crumb in mind but didn't follow through with it.

Creature though immediately "saw" the crumb, even after Dwlee99 made a post along the lines of "lol wut where is the crumb". And Creature continues to speak about Eggman having crumbed it. Robb has pointed it out a few times and so have I - why is Creature magically seeing Eggman's crumb, if even Eggman admitted that crumb didn't happen? Why is everyone ignoring it?

[Creature]

Dwlee99

I actually read the Musical Mafia.

[Creature]

Creature though immediately "saw" the crumb, even after Dwlee99 made a post along the lines of "lol wut where is the crumb". And Creature continues to speak about Eggman having crumbed it. Robb has pointed it out a few times and so have I - why is Creature magically seeing Eggman's crumb, if even Eggman admitted that crumb didn't happen? Why is everyone ignoring it?

It's sort of a crumb. Why would he ask what's everyone's favorite dessert?

[F-oh-ex]

So you believe Eggman is Town based not even on the fact that he crumbed something, but on the fact that he posed a RQS?

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee99

I actually read the Musical Mafia.

lol that game.
Tunneling my scum partner and then getting quick lynched randomly at the end of the day
fun times

[Creature]

So you believe Eggman is Town based not even on the fact that he crumbed something, but on the fact that he posed a RQS?

Yes, it still fits as a good crumb.

[F-oh-ex]

Asking a random question is in intself a good crumb, even if it contains no actual crumbing?
...
Creature, can you please repeat what you just wrote in a form which would be better for quoting? That deserves to find its way to "top 10 hilarious quotes of mafiascum in July" or sth.

[F-oh-ex]

Okay, if my sense of humour dropped THIS low, it's a clear sign for me I should hit the hay.

[Infinity 324]

Say what you'd like, but you're imagining that. You said you thought something I said in that post set off your scumdar and the only thing I can see setting that off is if you thought I lied about not trying to push a hammer through. If that's not the case, please clarify what made that retort to petroleum scummy, because it's not clear. And that's not "overdefensive", that's explaining myself after an accusation

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

You said you weren't pushing for a quickhammer on eggman, but petroleum wasn't accusing you of that, "pushing for a lynch" does not mean "pushing for a lynch immediately", and that particular wording is not important anyway. The important part that petroleum was pointing out was that you called eggman scum for crumbing uselessly, while you crumbed neighbor, and you already had answered that part. Overdefensive.

You also talk about why you didn't like the eggman crumb in a way that "I realize now that it may have just been something Eggman may do" is not a reason for town to drop a scumread. Meanwhile you never even gave another reason to stop pushing eggman in the first place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dragon

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

[Smithereens]

UNVOTE:

[Dwlee99]

Say what you'd like, but you're imagining that. You said you thought something I said in that post set off your scumdar and the only thing I can see setting that off is if you thought I lied about not trying to push a hammer through. If that's not the case, please clarify what made that retort to petroleum scummy, because it's not clear. And that's not "overdefensive", that's explaining myself after an accusation

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

You said you weren't pushing for a quickhammer on eggman, but petroleum wasn't accusing you of that, "pushing for a lynch" does not mean "pushing for a lynch immediately", and that particular wording is not important anyway. The important part that petroleum was pointing out was that you called eggman scum for crumbing uselessly, while you crumbed neighbor, and you already had answered that part. Overdefensive.

You also talk about why you didn't like the eggman crumb in a way that "I realize now that it may have just been something Eggman may do" is not a reason for town to drop a scumread. Meanwhile you never even gave another reason to stop pushing eggman in the first place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dragon

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

I mean I know it is counter intuitive to try to start a counter wagon on your scum buddy as scum but you might get townie points if you counter wagon'd mario. You could probably argue that you're town cause mario was your counter wagon and "why would scum counter wagon their partner ??"

[Infinity 324]

You're not even trying to analyze stuff anymore.

Did anything dragon did look overdefensive to you?

I'm definitely still willing to vote mario but I want to see where this goes. It's so much easier to look town when you don't have any pressure on you.

[Dragon of the West]

I never said that I removed egg from my scumreads entirely. He just moved up slightly and is no longer the person I would like to lynch most today. Lol yeah he crumbed to claim, I crumbed to get Robb's attention. You can't compare the 2 instances.
Also, he said "push the lynch through". That's different to me than just "pushing for a lynch". But regardless of that, I didn't think making sure I explained myself well would be a problem, sorry if it was a bit wordy for your taste.
I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

[Dwlee99]

I have a day cop inno on dragon, can you stop now, infinity?

[MarioManiac4]

Well, here's my reads if people want them.
Smithereens- nothing really of note.
Derek- this was my first scumread and I still maintain it. He's spent almost all of his time ivoting crazycrab, although he seems to be active. He then seems to push Eggman primarily while the wagon was the most popular- after it fades away his attention on Eggman vanishes and he goes back to crab. He doesn't seem to be posting about anyone but crab. I can understand this if he has limited time online but it doesn't seem like he is, and even if he is I've found as scum, when I do have limited time, I focus on mostly my push and trying to validate it without pushing any other cases, rather than trying to generalize and find good cases (which is what I would do as town)- I'm not the same person as Derek but I think it's an instinct many would have. This is a somewhat bad scumread but it's lower than null nevertheless.

Eggman- "do you think there are 3 scum in a 13p game" is bad. I dislike 199, specifically the part where he says "I wanted to make a post to show that I was reading." Town don't really feel like justifying anything, but scum are generally always on the lookout for their own survival- or newer ones are anyhow. In 267 he says he's not aware of how to scumhunt. This is kinda a serious problem and you'd think he'd have figured it out in his three completed games. Sure enough, a quick look at "Celestial Mafia" where he is actively trying to scumhunt. He is aware of how to scumhunt. This strangely seems to drop, with Creature coming in with a townread on Eggman with a read that doesn't make sense.

crazycrab- I can see the scumminess of this slot when I open the ISO but it isn't hard to put into words- I might be seeing something different. crazycrab is commenting on different light reads. Post 173 is especially over the top, with "feel" appearing twice, along with its old comrade "from my experience". Yet he does make a good point about Eggman- although that isn't hard to fake if Eggman is town. He then follows this up by defending him slightly- this could indicate they are scumbuddies. His #254 is valid, but #173 is still bad. Later on, #515 is bad. If he thought the push was stupid, why didn't he say so instead of just saying that it was probably a SvS and the two most discussed players at the time were his top scumreads, along with those who hadn't posted?
"I think the problem we are having is that while many people read just off people's ISO, I believe that we should consider all the possibilities before we make a decision. I don't know if this is a good strategy because I have only tested it on one game, but it is what seems most fair to me."- this means that he has tested this strategy he is apparently using before. He makes the next few posts about his strategy; a musing by Fohex on crab's Dwlee read turns into a criticism on his strategy, and then says that he was "testing" a strategy in this game? 1)- you said you'd tested it before? and 2)- what's all this talk about strategy about? This game is a scumhunting game, and just because people thought your explanations weren't good enough doesn't mean you should hide your reasoning so that you can keep reads that are unsatisfying to other people?
Y'know, this makes me think- what is he planning to do this game if not explaining his reads? Explaining reads is the way to get your scumreads lynched, and if he's not planning to explain his reads, is he just planning to just state his reads and skate by the whole game? This post's scummy.
#600- why does he listen to a few criticisms of his strategy?

I'm going to post this to get it out there and aim to get the rest of my reads up asap.

Robb we can.compromise on infinity or we could lynch the scum picking all the low hanging fruit andbscum reading them and for some reason just mentioning smithereens??

Umm...
1.smithereens was the first in the playerlist so I started with them.
2. I am actually going to read some more people. These came to mind as the people who have had wagons- people gave their opinions on them earlier, so I decided to look at them earlier. You're sorely mistaken if you think I'm not gonna scumread anyone else.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4

I don't think you're trying to comment on the current situation.

You'd be somewhat correct. Your ISOs are long things. Luckily for you that's happening tonight.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Dragon of the West, in your last game of mafia (which I understand was also your first game), you put a player at L-1. You later showed concern about leaving players at L-1 where they could be hammered, and you in fact unvoted that player to prevent it:

does someone want to unvote just to be sure? or are we okay with him sitting at L-1 trusting no one will just hammer him?

Is tojam at L-2 or L-1? I unvoted because I was afraid at[m487] would throw on his vote after my explanation and accidentally hammer

You did not seem to have the same mentality with Eggman today. If anything, you ramped up the pressure once Eggman hit L-1/L-2. You have only recently shifted your vote, but that was only after the wagon had died down. Between you, F-oh-ex, Smithereens, and Robbnva roundly criticizing Eggman's "crumb," there was clearly enough conversational momentum that an Eggman lynch was in sight. This was particularly evident given that a votecount put Eggman at L-1 in Post #404, which was followed by atm487 calling for a hammer, and then crazycrabman (a potential hammer vote) posting that Eggman was his strongest scumread in Post #415.

Why were you content to leave your vote on Eggman?

2.)

Dragon of the West:

I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

This is pretty clearly not how you actually play. Why did you say it, then?

3.)

Dragon of the West, both of your serious votes in this game were in large part because you wanted to "hear more" from certain players:

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

While I don't have problems poking at quiet players, is there a reason you have not placed votes on your main scumreads?

4.)

Robbnva, could you summarize your Neighborhood conversation with Dragon of the West? Please refrain from direct quotes.

[F-oh-ex]

Say what you'd like, but you're imagining that. You said you thought something I said in that post set off your scumdar and the only thing I can see setting that off is if you thought I lied about not trying to push a hammer through. If that's not the case, please clarify what made that retort to petroleum scummy, because it's not clear. And that's not "overdefensive", that's explaining myself after an accusation

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

You said you weren't pushing for a quickhammer on eggman, but petroleum wasn't accusing you of that, "pushing for a lynch" does not mean "pushing for a lynch immediately", and that particular wording is not important anyway. The important part that petroleum was pointing out was that you called eggman scum for crumbing uselessly, while you crumbed neighbor, and you already had answered that part. Overdefensive.

You also talk about why you didn't like the eggman crumb in a way that "I realize now that it may have just been something Eggman may do" is not a reason for town to drop a scumread. Meanwhile you never even gave another reason to stop pushing eggman in the first place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dragon

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Petroleum, just curious, did you not notice inno inspect on DotW or you want to pressure him regardless of it?

[F-oh-ex]

Arghh, I sent the "quotes" post instead of a "quotes and replies post". Feel free to delete the previous one, @Mod.

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

Ad. 1. The difference is Eggman didn't actually crumb VT while Dragon did sift Neighbour quite strongly.

Ad. 2. As scum he could do it to a) desperately defend his partner and b) try to tie himself closely to Eggman if Egg is Town and then say "see, i told you smh". Are you saying that if someone acts insanely stupidly/unreasonably, they're immediately not scum? Personally, I'm more of a "Lynch all Liars" kind of a player - except when it comes to gambits, of course. And Creature is either lying or hallucinating.

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Town!Egg is more likely than Town!Creature to be honest. As someone pointed out (Dwlee99, was it?), Creature could be very likely trying to tie himself to Town Egg.

Petroleum, just curious, did you not notice inno inspect on DotW or you want to pressure him regardless of it?

[F-oh-ex]

Also, to "Fox being stupidly stuck on Creature/Egg BS". I believe Creature/Egg is still the way to go, hence me staying on Creature wagon. I kinda missed the exact point when this topic got dropped, need to reread to localise it and determine who exactly is responsible for it.

[F-oh-ex]

Your hyperactivity just after subbing in could serve to overshadow everything that has happened so far, just saying. But that's just a pre-ISO hypothesis.

[F-oh-ex]

I have a day cop inno on dragon, can you stop now, infinity?

Okay, it might be my newbieness because I actually considered that post seriously and not as a "He's town, now F off" kind of post...