chilledtea's Mini Normal Review

[N]

chilledteahas a 13p mini normal to review. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.

Reviewers: Marquis, Cephrir,

Ether

callforjudgement

1) Yes.
2) 13 (mini normal).
3) No one. I will post the roles in the mod thread with the player list and if needed will create a mod thread and give access to it to the reviewers? This will be the first time I will be modding ever so I am not sure about what happens behind the scenes.
4) None. First game as a mod.

Rules :

(Big thanks to BulletNLynchproof from whom the ruleset has been stolen/borrowed)

General Rules :

1) All site-wide rules apply. In particular, no discussion of ongoing games is allowed.
2) No discussion of this game allowed anywhere outside this game thread (which includes PMs), unless otherwise stated by your Role PM.
3) My Mod color is blue (#tobedecided). Do not use it.
4) Do not quote your Role PM or any other PMs from the Mod, real or fabricated.
5) Play to your win condition. Do not claim scum with another player regardless of your alignment, there will be consequences.
6) No personal attacks.
7) Do not edit or delete your post, even if you have the ability to do so.
8) No using encrypted text, small text, bright-coloured text, or otherwise make it hard to see what you are writing.
9) Use common sense. There are probably many other rules but I forgot about them. If it feels wrong, please don't do it. If in doubt, contact the Mod.
10) Expressing intent to break a rule, fake breaking a rule, finding loopholes in a rule or encouraging someone to break a rule is equivalent to breaking the rule itself and will suffer similar consequences.
11) Questions relating to roles, either yours, or someone else's or imaginary, will not be entertained in the game thread. If you have a question regarding roles, you have to ask me by PM and it won't be answered in the game thread.

Voting and Lynching rules:

1) Day phases will last 8 days.
2) Night phases last exactly 2 days (48 hours)
3) Use either bold tags or vote tags to vote someone. It is preferable if you vote at the start of a line.[Insert example here]
4) Votes to No Lynch are accepted, indicated by VOTE: No Lynch or Vote: No Lynch.
5) To unvote, use the unvote tag (UNVOTE: ), or bold (Unvote), but I'll accept VOTE: Unvote as well.
6) Votes in quote tags will not be counted. Please do not put votes in any other tags, they will not be counted either.
7) It takes a strict majority (half of all players plus 1, rounded down) to achieve a lynch. It takes a weak majority (half of all players, rounded up) to No Lynch.
8) If a majority was not met by deadline, a No Lynch will happen.
9) When a lynch has been achieved, it is final, and any further votes or unvotes will not count. Everyone (including the lynched person) may continue to post until I post the lynch scene.
10) When you are dead, do not post, game related or not. This means no ‘bah' posts.
11) If the Mod has made an error in the vote count, please post the error in thread.

Activity and Replacements:

1) 48 hours without a post will incur a prod.
2) If you do not respond to the prod by posting in the main thread within 24 hours, you will be replaced.
3) Three prods and I will also replace you.
4) If a replacement happens near deadline, I may grant an extension. I reserve the right not to give this extension if I feel it's being abused.
5) If a replacement happens at Night, I will freeze the deadline until a replacement is found.

Setup Information:

1) This is a 13 player Normal closed setup. It follows the Normal game guidelines.
2) It is guaranteed that at least one player is initially aligned with the Mafia, and more than half the players are initially aligned with the Town.
3) It is also guaranteed that at least one player is a Vanilla Townie, who will receive the role PM as shown below.
4) Natural Action Resolution is in effect.
5) Please submit Night actions on time. Overdue Night actions will not count, even if I haven't resolved them yet.
6) If you believe the Mod has made an error in resolving effects, please PM me.

Sample Role PM

:

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Vanilla Town.

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Role PMs :

Town Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

1-shot Cop.

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of checking a player's alignment. You have 1-shot, which means you can only use it once in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

2-shot Tracker.

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track a person to see whom they targeted (if any). You are limited to using it on only 2 night phases in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

1-shot Gunsmith

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track a person to see if they own a gun. You can use it only once in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are an

Ascetic

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You cannot get targeted by anyone during the night, except for kills.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Bodyguard

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be saved from one kill. If successful, you get killed instead of your target.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

2-shot Vigilante

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be killed. You can only shoot twice in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Vanilla Town.

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Mafia Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Goon

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can check one person to see if they are vanilla or otherwise. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Doctor

You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can protect one person from getting killed on one night. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]


Hidden Moderator Information :

Result to cops :

Gulty/Innocent/No Result.

Result to vanilla cops :

Vanilla/Not Vanilla/No Result

Result to trackers :

Your target visited [player name]/no one/No Result.

Result to gunsmiths:

Your target has a gun/doesn't have a gun.

[Ether]

The tags in places like how to vote and unvote in your ruleset aren't bolded properly. 8 days is a pretty quick deadline--you'll want to acknowledge that up front in signups.

2) It is guaranteed that at least one player is initially aligned with the Mafia, and more than half the players are initially aligned with the Town.

This, uh...this would make me more suspicious that you were up to something weird than if you'd said nothing at all. The NRG isn't going to pass a setup where the town isn't even a proper uninformed majority, or where there's no mafia. (Barring werewolves with the exact same mechanics, obviously.)

I mean, there are plenty of good reasons to give actual concrete information about the setup pre-game. There are lots of people (including me) who already know they don't want to deal with serial killers and/or multiball and prefer games that offer them that peace of mind up front. And giving faction numbers means that you can publicly acknowledge things like when it's LyLo in cutscenes. But this rule as it stands isn't saying anything at all, it's just taking up space.

One piece of setup information you

should

be giving up front is whether a single mafiate can take an action and carry out the mafia kill on the same night.

---

So, rules aside, the main thing that bothers me with this setup is the sheer number of power roles. (Although I also question whether the mafia really needs a doctor. A two-shot vig and a one-shot gunsmith aren't really powerful enough to need a counter.) Having four vanilla townies instead of the usual 6-7 raises the risk that the daygame is going to boil down to setup speculation and whether the town can successfully outguess the way you think as a mod, which makes me uncomfortable as a feature of a normal game.

I'm just...I'm just having flashbacks to this awful game I played as scum where we had to wagon half the goddamn town because there weren't any vanillas to lynch. And this is a much better setup than that, because this setup does not contain a full tracker, watcher and gunsmith along with a bunch of other crap, but sometimes I just want to settle down with a nice lynchable vanilla townie and go to night already, you know?

[Marquis]

I agree with Ether here - even with stronger Mafia PRs and an 8-day deadline, the ratio of PRs to townies is a bit too high for comfort. I like the limitations you've placed, but it doesn't negate how scum will be up against a wide variety of threats from more than the usual amount of different players that are then made harder to kill at once. In other words, spreading out power like this amongst the Town just weakens Mafia because they can only lynch and kill one potential threat per phase anyway, regardless of X-shot modifiers.

[Marquis]

I like the Mafia PRs in isolation, so if you wanted to do that while removing some PRs and buffing most of the remaining ones (say, 4 PRs leftover) it'd definitely be better. And easier to judge balance for accurately.

[chilledtea]

The eight day deadline is very important for me and I will notify them during the signups. Too many times in my experience has it resulted in games floating about doing nothing and in my opinion this should benefit the town more than scum.

Surely the limitations like x-shot should make them similar to vanilla townies once they have used their shot? The main reasoning behind so many PR's is because I don't want town to setup speculation. Too many times town depends on setup speculation and policy lynches, which imo are bad choices.

This is also the first ever setup of mine so I figured there might be balance issues. I just don't want setup speculation to create problems for scum fakeclaims or create confirmed townies and such. The more PR's, the better it is I think.

I am open to suggestions though.

[chilledtea]

I will also delete that line in the rules which ether pointed out. It was copied as is from BnP with small editing here and there.

[chilledtea]

I was under the impression that under normal guidelines, mafia could only carry out one action?

If that's not the case, I will state as such in the rules itself.

[Ether]

Setup speculation is more likely in games with the powers all scattered, not less. If most players are vanilla, the town will be assessing them based on whether their play is scummy or not. If the power roles are scattered, then each of their individual claims also become a factor.

You can rule whatever you want on how many actions mafia can take, as long as it's posted up-front.

[chilledtea]

While it's true that setup speculation is more likely with PR's, I also believe that it is more successful in town's hands if there are less PR's.

Am I wrong in thinking that way? I feel that scum have more of a chance of hiding amongst PR's if there are more PR's and as a result town will have to do actual scumhunting and town hunting to find scum/town instead of relying on claims.

[chilledtea]

What if I remove the 1-shot cop and turn him into a vanilla?

ascetic, 2-shot tracker, 2-shot gunsmith, 2-shot vigilante, bodyguard, 5 vanillas - Town

Doctor, goon, vanilla cop - Mafia

How would this be?

[Cephrir]

Oh hi I forgot to bookmark this

[Cephrir]

"During night phase, you can track a person to see whom they targeted (if any). You are limited to using it on only 2 night phases in the game."

This is pretty weird wording and not consistent with other PMs. It seems to remove the possibility of a Roleblocker being in the game with its weirdness.

[Cephrir]

While it's true that setup speculation is more likely with PR's, I also believe that it is more successful in town's hands if there are less PR's.

Am I wrong in thinking that way? I feel that scum have more of a chance of hiding amongst PR's if there are more PR's and as a result town will have to do actual scumhunting and town hunting to find scum/town instead of relying on claims.

Well, PRs can potentially clear their owners, and it makes them harder to lynch especially if they still have shots

[Cephrir]

"If successful, you get killed instead of your target." -> "If your target would be killed, you are killed in their stead." If someone didn't already know what a bodyguard was they might not know what "successful" means.

[Cephrir]

What if I remove the 1-shot cop and turn him into a vanilla?

ascetic, 2-shot tracker, 2-shot gunsmith, 2-shot vigilante, bodyguard, 5 vanillas - Town

Doctor, goon, vanilla cop - Mafia

How would this be?

It's probably okay. Town will most likely benefit from all the 2-shot claims seeming to back each other up as setup elements, and in practice ascetics will claim day 1 and be treated as mostly clear. I think I would still bet on town.

[chilledtea]

"During night phase, you can track a person to see whom they targeted (if any). You are limited to using it on only 2 night phases in the game."

This is pretty weird wording and not consistent with other PMs. It seems to remove the possibility of a Roleblocker being in the game with its weirdness.

Yeah, I worded the PMs myself. You can use it on only 2 night phases, doesn't imply that it has to be successful though.

[chilledtea]

So would you say that setup is balanced? Should I change one of the PR's to some other x-shot to not make it predictable?

I don't want predictibility to affect the game.

Maybe 1-shot tracker, 3-shot gunsmith, 2-shot vigilante, bodyguard, 5 vanillas - Town

Doctor, goon, vanilla cop - Mafia ?

Who is more powerful in practice? Gunsmith, or tracker?

[chilledtea]

I am going to assume that the thread in Mafia Discussion is the reason why people are taking their time with this review?

[Cephrir]

It certainly made me feel like I should think twice.

I think Gunsmiths are probably stronger than Trackers

[Marquis]

Oh hi I forgot to bookmark this

^same, sorry

"I don't want predictibility to affect the game." definitely agree with you here, and I think you've done a good job at avoiding that.

Maybe 1-shot tracker, 3-shot gunsmith, 2-shot vigilante, bodyguard, 5 vanillas - Town

Doctor, goon, vanilla cop - Mafia ?

Who is more powerful in practice? Gunsmith, or tracker?

Here, Tracker would be because you have 1 false positive and 1 false negative. It'll be a bit misleading, and I think the town is a bit too weak here due to being unable to trust their actions, as well as the vig being both positive or negative utility. It's a good PR distribution, but I'd say the Tracker needs to be buffed to at least 3-shot (or just make it a regular tracker) or just outright replace it with a watcher if we have this many actions going on.

Also, not sure if you settled on whether to let mafia use night actions or not, but. yeah

[Cephrir]

i'd be in favor of one of the investigative roles just being full

[chilledtea]

Mafia won't be able to use both their abilities and night action on the same night. It is either night action, or factional ability.

Town : 3-shot tracker, 3-shot Gunsmith, 2-shot Vigilante, Bodyguard, Ascetic, 5 Vanilla Town.

Mafia : Goon, Vanilla Cop, Doctor.

How does this look? I am not in favour of a full tracker if the game can do without it. It would help in reducing the predictability even more though. But rather the tracker is made to think about whom he/she targets.

[Cephrir]

Well, I guess I kind of think in a mini game the difference between a 3-shot tracker and a tracker is pretty much nothing. but i'm okay with this either way.

[chilledtea]

Was wondering if I can use this thread as Mod thread when the game gets assigned to me?

[Marquis]

Well, I guess I kind of think in a mini game the difference between a 3-shot tracker and a tracker is pretty much nothing. but i'm okay with this either way.

My thoughts.^

I'd like to see the full updated rules/first posts, including the Mafia action clause in it, but otherwise I'm ready to approve.