Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[Killthestory]

Lol you think I'm applying pressure.

I'm here to lynch you, not do some baby shit where I pressure you to get a read on you.

[Tenshii]

Io vs Karnos might be Town vs Town?

Karnos's posts towards vs Io are absolutely reasonable defenses. And #76 came off as "I know I'm town" rather than "I'm mafia and I want to get rid of the possibility of us bussing." Given that the #70 post was

justified by #140

, It makes sense for why #70 would be done by Town.

Io is grasping for straws but all of that revolves around Io truly interpreting #70 as scum trying to indirectly attack Thor.

This whole argument feels like a long battle of "how hard can I prove these few posts are supposed to be interpreted as town/mafia posts." If this argument kept going, today's lynch will probably come down to whoever won this battle. Which would be pretty stupid.

[Luna Fox]

I guess KTS doesn't do sarcasm.
I like Tenshii on maybe town.

[Killthestory]

I guess KTS doesn't do sarcasm.
I like Tenshii on maybe town.

I feel the opposite on Tenshii, but that's just gut. I think he's town, logically.

[PhantomCobalt]

What's up guys! Going to read through when I get a chance. Sorry for coming in a bit late, I usually like to jump into the start of games, but my schedule didn't fit with the game's late start.

[karnos]

But I don't really see how his point is valid as he just said I was lying which I don't even see what I was lying about since he didn't really point it out clearly. The closest thing I can see where he gets the "I'm a liar" part from is where I was saying what I thought his intentions with his posts were which wouldn't even be a lie as it's just interpretation as I don't see him having very high town motivations with them. Even if I was stretching that a little bit

It kind of sounds like you are lying again.

" he didn't really point it out clearly"

Specifically, you said "claiming to have never pushed for his lynched"

Please, show me where I claimed to never push for Thor's lynch. Please do. You can't, because it's a lie. I never made such a claim.

Does anyone else think I was really being unclear? Is Io being dumb, or scum?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Karnos, sorry for being jumpy and impatient but can you weigh in on 150? Thanks.

[PhantomCobalt]

1. Do you get your reads typically from gut or evidence? I don't make a case on the thread with just my gut, usually I press someone that I have a gut suspicion on then use evidence from that push as a case.

2. How would you describe your level of experience? 1-10, used to be around a 6, but I took a break from the site so now I'm about a 5.

3. When trying to get a better read on a specific player, do prefer you reread the entire thread or just their ISO?
Neither, probably just push them.

4. What's your Myers-briggs personality type? Here's a link to a test for it if you don't know yours, but you can skip this one if you don't feel like wasting time. No.

I ask this because a lot of my scumhunting comes from putting myself into other player's shoes and using that to figure out their motives, so knowing how someone thinks is useful for that. I don't really know how successful this'll be but it's worth a shot!

5. What's your opinion on Lynch All Liars? Lynch All Lurkers? Policy lynches in general? Don't want to share that until the time comes.

6. Do you think it's a good idea to utilize all of the time allotted by a deadline? Why not

7. Are you scum? Shit

[karnos]

This logic doesn't make any sense.
Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

What exactly does a town read mean? IMO, it means the player isn't scum.

What exactly does a scum read me? IMO, it means the player isn't town.

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately.

[Luna Fox]

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

I disagree!
I town hunt because im better at finding town than scum!

[PhantomCobalt]

VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!

[karnos]

If players know the questionnaire will be used to call them scum

Karnos

, is this what you believe the purpose of the RQS was?

What you or I think about the purpose is irrelevant, since you have already shown that you will use it as an excuse to push a lynch.

Given that knowledge, and knowing that ignoring the RQS has no ill potential, it just sounds like fake scum hunting, busywork essentially. It's like when someone enters thread, asks a few pointed questions, and then never follows up with them.

[karnos]

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

I disagree!
I town hunt because im better at finding town than scum!

*banging head against wall*

If you can find town, then by process of elimination you found scum too. The process is identical.

[Luna Fox]

*banging head against wall*

If you can find town, then by process of elimination you found scum too. The process is identical.

The conclusion is identical, the process is different.
If anything i'd argue that process of elimination gets better results than scumreading ppl for silly things.

[PhantomCobalt]

Just to make a quick point before I reread:

Let's say we have 10 players, ranked from most town to least town.

Player A
Player B
Player C
Player D
Player E
Player F
Player G
Player H
Player I
Player J

At the end of the day, who are you going to vote for? Player J, even though you found him town, but the least town? This shows that town hunting and scum hunting give very close results.

[Luna Fox]

In my case i only use 4 ranks "Super town" "Strong town" "Townreads" and "Leftovers" i usually lynch within the left overs, and "Super town" are people im 100% sure dont need reevaluation to the point of risking the game.

I just find myself better at noticing patterns in tone and posting that mean town, because when i try to find patterns that i think are scummy, i end up making silly accusations or mislynch people more often.
Also i feel like i had this same discussion in another game months ago, right KTS?

[Luna Fox]

Regardless, that's really tangential.
Karnos argues that you cant be bad at scumreading people but good at townreading people because it's the same thing.
Which isn't true, imo.

[karnos]

@Karnos - allow me to provide the evidence Io hasn't;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8120442
This is where you were distancing from the position of attacking me.
I no longer see a lie - unless it's from you.
Want to clarify?

That isn't me distancing from attacking you because I didn't attack you up to that point.

This is a semantics debate, where Io claims to understand my meaning better than I do. If you believe her, good god this game is doomed already.

I made a general statement, "how do you feel about people who flat out refuse to answer your questions?"

Io interpreted as an attack on you. Yet you were not the only one who hadn't answered your questions. You also seem to be ignoring the (actually correct) interpretation that it may be more of a question for giga than an attack on you. Yes, I had noted your refusal to answer and it is the reason i asked the question, but that doesn't make the question an attack on you. It's rather odd to me that giga would not find it suspicious that you refuse to answer the questions. It doesn't mean I am attacking giga, or that I think she is scum (as my read on her isn't based on that post alone) but it meant I wanted to see how she reacted to the question.

If I wanted to attack you, I would vote you and it wouldn't be a matter of interpretation, it would be blindly obvious.

[karnos]

Regardless, that's really tangential.
Karnos argues that you cant be bad at scumreading people but good at townreading people because it's the same thing.
Which isn't true, imo.

I'm sorry you are in denial here, but you are wrong. The process of scum hunting means looking at every player, and picking out the one who seems least likely to flip town. There is no difference at all between reading scum and reading town.

[Luna Fox]

Regardless, that's really tangential.
Karnos argues that you cant be bad at scumreading people but good at townreading people because it's the same thing.
Which isn't true, imo.

I'm sorry you are in denial here, but you are wrong. The process of scum hunting means looking at every player, and picking out the one who seems least likely to flip town. There is no difference at all between reading scum and reading town.

Not really.
While yes i'd be picking the one least likely to flip town, what you usually use as your process of scumhunting is picking a post or series of posts that look scummy, and vote the player.
Now let's see here what you usually define as "scummy" can be done by both Town and Scum, there's no way you wont make mislynches if you just guide yourself with "scummyness" to vote players.
Which is why i go to the opposite, i try to find genuinity and transparency, as well as general trends that i find townie, because imo scum needs to be really good to fake anything like that.
These process are entirely different, the conclusion is the same, the only difference is that the reason for the "scumreads" is "PoE" on my case.

(Oh and btw, usually scum players latch onto "Scummyness" of town players to generate mislynches)

[Thor665]

Lol you think I'm applying pressure.

I'm here to lynch you, not do some baby Smurf where I pressure you to get a read on you.

This isn't baby stuff - so you're advancing "walls" as a scumtell?
My bad, I'll reassess how I read your play.

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

I would agree.
Especially since I never said anything like that.
What I *did* say was that in your theory world, maybe I didn't have a scumread yet - which is totally different.


Could you answer again now that you understand what I actually said?

That isn't me distancing from attacking you because I didn't attack you up to that point.

Yes you did.
I utterly agree with Io on that point, and it's kind of comical that you're arguing against that - even in your answer you're kind of half agreeing you're attacking me, just also attacking people who also hadn't posted yet.

Yes, I had noted your refusal to answer and it is the reason i asked the question, but that doesn't make the question an attack on you.

Streeeeeetch

[Luna Fox]

In other news.
Regardless what's happening here is a difference on opinion, and i don't think it's adding anything to the game, if you want to argue otherwise then by all means continue with this debate of scumhunting vs townhunting, but i think it will only end up in a loop.

[karnos]

These process are entirely different, the conclusion is the same, the only difference is that the reason for the "scumreads" is "PoE" on my case.

How do you know the process is different? I thought you said you only got town reads.

Anyway, hypothetical question: Is there any player you do not town-read right now? Can you point at any post they made and say that was part of the reason why you don't town read them? If so, you successfully read a player as scummy! Congratulations.

Now let's see here what you usually define as "scummy" can be done by both Town and Scum, there's no way you wont make mislynches if you just guide yourself with "scummyness" to vote players.

Are you making the claim that your method never results in a miss-lynch?

[karnos]

VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!

How rude. I haven't done a VC recently, I hope that wasn't hammer.

Hello PC.

[Luna Fox]

Anyway, hypothetical question: Is there any player you do not town-read right now? Can you point at any post they made and say that was part of the reason why you don't town read them? If so, you successfully read a player as scummy! Congratulations.

Answer: If X player im not townreading is because they havent given any town vibes on any other posts, not specific posts.