Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[Transcend]

weird that everyones suddenly concerned about niceness in mafia....last time I checked pot-stirring was a surefire way to agitate scum into revealing themselves. Making people emotional makes them less calculated. Making them less calculated makes them more likely to slip and reveal their alignment. It's a good thing. And if we all say nothing personal and hug after the game's over, no harm done, right? Look at how KTS is reacting right now, there's a lot there.

VOTE: killthestory

VOTE: Ross

[Transcend]

Whoops meant to quote him telling karnos to vote thor before his kts vote. But this reads like a contradiction to me.

[Transcend]

"Hey karnos.... why don't you vote thor.... here lemme help you out by voting kts"

[karnos]

I've got this one.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66795

No crazy lie logic arguments.

What have you got with a lie logic argument?

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Second of all....

Thor did you even read this game?

Do? Yes.
Did? No.

In other words, you didn't even read through the game when you replaced in. You don't know me as well as you think you do.

[karnos]

Karnos, why aren't you voting for Thor?

Because that would require unvoting Io.

[Transcend]

Here's my reads in a short lazy ranger style for now. I'll explain any of this later

{karnos, Tenshii}
{Kcda, Giga}
{Io}
{KTS, Luna}
{PC}
{Thor, Rosske}

PC's omgus left me speechless and I'm abhorring thor's tunnel on karnos. Rosske contradicted himself too. Io going a little bit downward in my reads.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I really think I need more Phantom interactions in this game before I decide how I want to read him. To me, he's playing like bad town rather than scum. I suppose placing an RVS vote after RVS could be scum-motivated, but it seems like a stretch to me.

As for Thor, I'm still having a little trouble what to make of him... Gut wants to say town but something feels off that I can't put my finger on. Kcda, do you think you can explain your thought process about your Thor read (initially, you scumread him but now you townread him)? I presume you have some meta on Thor that can better explain your reads, too?

[tojam2]

VC Day 1 - 5

Karnos L-3 - Io, Thor665, gigabyte
PhantomCobalt L-4 - Luna Fox, Tenshii
Io L-4 - karnos, Killthestory
Thor665, Killthestory, Transcend and Rosske are all L-5.

(expired on 2016-07-29 16:30:00)

[Luna Fox]

I think the argument between Thor and Roske has been overblown way out of proportion, i dont even see them commenting on anything else that's going on and it's starting to worry me.

[Luna Fox]

I mean Thor and Karnos derp

[Thor665]

to me he's reading nearly identical to the noob town he played in his first game on the site (which was with me). i'm not in the mood to delve into examples.

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Has it ever happened before to you as town?
I'll agree it doesn't happen every game - I'd love to see an example though, is this your magical first time ever?

In other words, you didn't even read through the game when you replaced in. You don't know me as well as you think you do.

Yeah, I only read through the multiple days and pages after I replaced - which included a lot of you.
So, besides reading a lot of you as town, i have no comprehension of you as town.

Why, is there something in those pages I didn't read that would change my view?
Name it, and I'll check it out.
Or just keep empty discrediting me - y'know, as town does...

I think the argument between Thor and Roske has been overblown way out of proportion, i dont even see them commenting on anything else that's going on and it's starting to worry me.

Name something you think I should have commented on that I haven't?

[Luna Fox]

Name something you think I should have commented on that I haven't?

I'm townreadingy you, I'm also townreading Karnos.
I pointed out someone who may be sitting on the sidelines watching a TvT and made an argument out of that.
But it completely went over your head.
I feel like you're so focused on your tunnel that you aren't paying attention to what other people are doing unless it's related to your debate with Karnos.

[Killthestory]

I've realized I have a slight perdicament. I can't decide if PC, Kill, or Kranos is the VI.
I'm thinking Kill right now, but I'm currently OK with all 3 of them being lynched.
Everyone else is either Town, not scummy, or just not posting looking at you Rass.

This coming directly after my vote.

I don't really care about your vote enough to say you're town because of that.
Kranos is just overtly scummy so that means with er you or PC are just a bad townie. And as I said earlier I'm not as confident that you are scum with your interaction with Kc.

I'm not bad.

Scumread me if you want, but don't call me bad. Please.

V/LA till the 20th

[karnos]

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Has it ever happened before to you as town?
I'll agree it doesn't happen every game - I'd love to see an example though, is this your magical first time ever?

No, and no. Can't discuss ongoing games.

I'm actually looking for lies and contradictions a bit more than normal in this game, because of the RQS question #5. As I answered it myself, I don't think a lie is a scum tell on it's own, lying can be pro-town, but some lies are a scum tell. In most games, it's not the most crucial thing in the world to catch a player in a lie, because there are some town justifications for it, IMO.

OTOH, Io said

"I don't see a reason to really lie as town this game as there is no power roles to lie about, I have no problems with policy lynching."

So, after reading that, I have been on the lookout for any obvious lies or contradictions. Partly because I think Io is scum, and I'd like to put her into a situation that proves she doesn't believe in her own answers on the RQS. wanted to test her on that theory.

So, Io, do you think we should lynch the liar Thor?

[karnos]

My no & no answer is probably unclear. No this isn't the first time, and no I can't give an example.

[karnos]

I mean Thor and Karnos derp

Eh, I agree.

But what about Io?

What is she doing to contribute, other than popping in to misspell my name and remind everyone that I am scum.

Wild theory here- Io instigated the whole Thor vs Karnos argument, and then backed off satisfied when I got a few votes on my wagon. Doesn't that scream standard operation for scum? you want to push a miss lynch, but you don't want to be the one who is pushing it hard all day, so that after the flip you can turn things around and get someone on the miss-lynch wagon lynched.

If Io was a townie scum hunting, she should be looking for my partners, or at least putting some effort into my push, encouraging others to vote & hammer me. Instead she sits back and does little to nothing, exactly what I would expect from scum watch a TvT argument unfold.

My only problem with the wild theory: it requires that Thor is town.

[Luna Fox]

I feel like all sides are an argument that got blown out of proportion, It's not uncommon for town to make mistakes in interpretation, the way it sparked all 3 of you (Thor, Karnos and Io) read town to me, albeit Thor was gut, because it looks like the normal kind of debate that leads to mislynches over silly things, meanwhile PC stepped in conveniently RVS'd one of the sides of the argument and then went away, only to come back later on and call it TvT without retracting his vote.

I'm not the holy grail of reads, but i believe that you guys need to pay more attention about everything else happening even if it's unrelated to your argument, because your argument is giving scum a lot of places to hide.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Io instigated the whole Thor vs Karnos argument, and then backed off satisfied when I got a few votes on my wagon.

Io was the

last

vote on your wagon that actually mattered, and Thor and I were voting for you before Io even said anything... She can't "back off satisfied when [you] got a few votes on [your] wagon" because there were no votes to get on your wagon...

If you're town, I think you're overanalyzing Io's actions

way

too much. But I really think that because of how you're overestimating the amount of pressure on you and how concerned you are about the way you look, you're thinking in a scum-mindset. I'd agree with Luna in that this needs to stop, but I don't think it's a TvT+T(+T? i'm here kinda).

---

Anyway, crazy game we're having here, huh Rosske ? What do you think of Karnos? Post 339 tells me you might have some feelings worth telling us.

[karnos]

Giga, your vote, initially, was for a different reason. And Thor was just blind sheeping you. Io's was the first vote on me because of my "attack on Thor", which is what created the ongoing back & forth that is still making noise now. And why is her vote the last one that mattered? I thought the last vote that matters would be the hammer vote?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

By the "last vote" that mattered I mean the last vote with any real motivation behind it. I believe Phantom when he said it was an RVS vote. Whether that's scum or town, I don't know, but it wasn't given with much thought. Your wagon only consists of me, Thor, and Io. If you're going to say that Io instigated a TvT to get more votes on your wagon and backed off when they came, where are those votes?

[Thor665]

Name something you think I should have commented on that I haven't?

I'm townreadingy you, I'm also townreading Karnos.
I pointed out someone who may be sitting on the sidelines watching a TvT and made an argument out of that.
But it completely went over your head.
I feel like you're so focused on your tunnel that you aren't paying attention to what other people are doing unless it's related to your debate with Karnos.

What sort of feedback would you have expected/liked for a value call of "this person isn't interacting as much as I'd like?"
Functionally you made the same call on two slots you claim are town - but are suggesting this other slot is scum because he's also doing what you're saying two of your town reads are doing?
None of that makes sense, and it wasn't particularly interesting either.
There is zero issue with me focusing on a slot I am convinced is scum - that's actually good play.
I'm still talking to other people about other things, but if 80% of what I say is advancing a scumread...that's good.

My no & no answer is probably unclear. No this isn't the first time, and no I can't give an example.

Second time ever?

[PhantomCobalt]

Here's my reads in a short lazy ranger style for now. I'll explain any of this later

{karnos, Tenshii}
{Kcda, Giga}
{Io}
{KTS, Luna}
{PC}
{Thor, Rosske}

PC's omgus left me speechless and I'm abhorring thor's tunnel on karnos. Rosske contradicted himself too. Io going a little bit downward in my reads.

This is scum, painting my vote as omgus is terrible

choo choo

[Thor665]

Nah.

[Transcend]

Here's my reads in a short lazy ranger style for now. I'll explain any of this later

{karnos, Tenshii}
{Kcda, Giga}
{Io}
{KTS, Luna}
{PC}
{Thor, Rosske}

PC's omgus left me speechless and I'm abhorring thor's tunnel on karnos. Rosske contradicted himself too. Io going a little bit downward in my reads.

This is scum, painting my vote as omgus is terrible

choo choo

same, dude.

Am i the only person who noted Rosske contradicted himself?

[Thor665]

Am i the only person who noted Rosske contradicted himself?

I haven't seen any contradiction.