Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: panther

interesting. talk to me about panther.

[Quaroath]

Vote count 3.2

mhsmith - (3) Titus, Ranger, BTD6_maker
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Xkfyu
BTD6_maker - (1) AlpacaAlpaca
PantherPunt - (1) DrippingGoofball

Not Voting - (2) mhsmith, PantherPunt

With 8 eligible to vote, is takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is @ 8/9 @ 10pm PST

[Ranger]

Maybe start w why alpaca went from a town soul read on one opening post to your lynchable range?

Defense of you for a start.

[mhsmith0]

Maybe start w why alpaca went from a town soul read on one opening post to your lynchable range?

Defense of you for a start.

Because you see him as me teammate? Because you see it as TMI? And what other than his defense of me?

[Titus]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

[mhsmith0]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

This sounds like you're reading them both as town. Town reads specific to them, or is it just others have moved higher on the suspect list? I'm especially curious about Ranger; if you're town reading her currently, what changed from D2?

[Ranger]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along?

Well I'm townreading her. So not a problem on my end.

[Titus]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

This sounds like you're reading them both as town. Town reads specific to them, or is it just others have moved higher on the suspect list? I'm especially curious about Ranger; if you're town reading her currently, what changed from D2?

I am.

You changed.

@Ranger, each one of you will only vote one of my two scumreads, which makes it hard to work with the both of you.

[Quaroath]

Xkfyu and PantherPunt have been prodded. For transparencies sake I am attempting to dialogue with BTD as his V/LA is the entire game day, as to whether or not a replacement is suitable.

[BTD6_maker]

Quaroath, I should still be able to post here. My Internet is unpredictable but I can still post throughout the day.

I will inform you, though, that I may be unable to post during the last two days (or have to resort to phone posting). Also, I may not have good Internet from 1st to 3rd August but I will try to post.

Anyway, as for the state of the wagons, there is something unusual:

Each of the one-vote mini wagons are on either myself or a Townread. However, the strange thing here is that three of my Townreads are the people on these wagons.

The Mhsmith wagon is on a scumread of mine (which is why I am on it). However, two other scumreads of mine are on the wagon as well. (Titus is much weaker than either of Ranger or Mhsmith).

[PantherPunt]

weekends are tough sorry. off tomorrow so probably tuesday before I'm immersed again

to make this post game relevant, I see I have a vote. cute - look forward to talking about that

[mhsmith0]

Speaking of that post, though...

I don't think Ranger is scum here for a very simple reason. She's not pushing an agenda.

I hate you.
Like, seriously hate you.
The moment I saw you come in, I was like, "Why couldn't he have replaced DGB? Then I wouldn't need to sort him!"
But you didn't. You replaced Kappy's slot. So I do. And I've got the mixed emotions going, like, the one moment, thinking this is you as town being able to detect the difference between my town game and my scum game, which I want to believe because I definitely want to think you are a competent town player and it wasn't just a fluke, but the next moment, I keep thinking out of fear that you're scum about to SERIOUSLY burn me and that it'll sting even more because I

didn't

read you as scum when I should have, but then I think about what you could have done as scum (just push me) and I keep thinking that's more likely, that it would be stupidly easy for you to do as scum and the result is just an overall, "AHG, FINE, IF YOU'RE SCUM YOU WIN OKAY" which I hate telling players but I have to say all the same.

Or in short:
I hate you.

Ranger now would be a good time to explain your sketchy town read on me from the beggining because I am still wondering on it and it might help a little

I'm pretty sure I did this a long time ago. I'm almost positive the reason for it was strong gut. If there was a reason, I lost it. I just really didn't think your RVS was scum; it looked like a natural town RVS, and I was reading it and Alexcellent's in the same manner.

Since then, I have to admit that's weakened. In part because of Stack The Deck, actually: there, you were disengaged town, and replaced out. I couldn't help but have the thought: why was Alpaca disengaged town in

that

game (which was rather engaging), but didn't replace out of

this

game, which...well, I think you can check the number of replacements and game length to figure out why THIS game feels like the game you

should

have replaced out of. Yet you didn't. So the initial townread is gone, replaced by the paranoia that you stayed in this game because you were scum in the know. But that's a horrible reason, and one I also know isn't absolute. Kuroi, also from Stack The Deck, replaced out of it, yet in a similarly-disengaging game (Something_Smart's UPick), he didn't replace out...and was town there, so it's definitely not a hard-scumread and is literally the only possible doubt I have on you; there's nothing suspicious about your play otherwise.

^ was the last time ranger said anything particularly interesting about another player (other than pushing btd to vote me instead of her), nearly two weeks ago. She also proclaimed that a scum tell is being disinterested without subbing out. I'm not certain I agree w it, but this is her own stated beliefs. And she's by all appearances disinterested without subbing out, which in her own words is a scum tell.

On a related note, i think I'll just quote crunkus here...

A short, general list of things that constitute legitimate reasons for thinking someone is scum.

You infer that:

• someone knows something they shouldn't know if they are town.
  
• someone is lying about something for a reason that they do not believe benefits the town.
  
• someone is doing something with a motive other than to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade the town to work toward what is perceived by that person to be a town-oriented desired goal.

You'll notice none of these things work on people who are more concerned with their own survival than any of the listed town motivations. That should be play made unambiguously scum. I don't care what role you have. In the end, playing like a townie

in a healthy town

works TOWARD the goal of your survival. But unfortunately, some people do not realize the indirect consequences of their actions upon other players. This can, by the way, include having a direct impact upon THEIR ability to enjoy the game.

You'll notice it also doesn't work if a townie isn't trying to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade anyone of anything.

You'll notice being wrong isn't on the list. You'll notice trying to be influential isn't on that list. You'll notice being persistent and intense is not on that list.
...

Rangers play on d2 onward has, IMO, unambiguously been focused inward, with substantive discussion focused primarily on herself and relating either directly to defense or to pushing people pushing her (and the day one IV push was, if you recall, also against someone pushing on her). You'll notice, if you care to, a lack of substance behind many if her reads, even when questioned. You'll notice, if you care to, a persistent lack of

motive...to figure out the town's puzzle or persuade the town to work toward what is perceived by that person to be a town-oriented desired goal

If ranger is in fact town (which I continue to doubt) then she's right that this was a flat out terrible game for her. The bad reads (iv and me, possibly m&m too) were part of it, of course, but what's worse is the lack of energy and effort to change that state of affairs. That's the part that I simply can't reconcile w town!ranger. Like, this came a month ago

This game's going in my wiki as one of my worst games ever, period, end of discussion. Even if it turns out that {you, mhsmith} are the scum, the VAST inconsistency and lack of strength behind my push would render any and all credit I'd deserve for those callouts moot. And obviously, if you're not scum (I just don't know anymore), then I don't know who the second would be. I think mhsmith is scum. But that's all I have.

And since then, Rangers been even more disengaged w the game than when she said that. And more than anything else, I think that's what's damning. If she's town dissatisfied w the game state performance she'd work to fix things (poking at people, asking questions, re-reading, or even just talking about her town reads in depth in order to be useful there). If she's scum worried about spew and satisfied w a smith lynch on d3, she'd avoid saying anything useful, and talk about herself in ways designed to look reasonably townie. She's done the latter.

[mhsmith0]

By the way, @btd

someone is lying about something for a reason that they do not believe benefits the town.

Is why you were obv!wolf when you retracted your fake seer claim in rangers micro on d2. Town failing to lynch you there (and even more ridiculously on d3 considering letting you live to d4) was the low light of the game for them. You 100% should have rolled w that fake seer claim as long as you could. Maybe even throw in a "role blocked" bit on a night since they were apparently willing to eat it up.

[Quaroath]

Vote count 3.3

mhsmith - (3) Titus, Ranger, BTD6_maker
AlpacaAlpaca - (1) Xkfyu
BTD6_maker - (1) AlpacaAlpaca
PantherPunt - (1) DrippingGoofball

Not Voting - (2) mhsmith, PantherPunt

With 8 eligible to vote, is takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is @ 8/9 @ 10pm PST

Xkfyu has not picked up his prod, and will be replaced if he has not posted in the next 12 hours.

InnocentVillager has been prodded.

[innocentvillager]

Hi friends I'm here lol

Reading up some stuff.

[Ranger]

She also proclaimed that a scum tell is being disinterested without subbing out.

I did?
This is news to me.

I mean, I've never willingly left a game.
So I don't see how I could have said something like that, when my inclination is to not

start

.

If she's town dissatisfied w the game state performance she'd work to fix things (poking at people, asking questions, re-reading, or even just talking about her town reads in depth in order to be useful there).

Bluntly.
This sounds terrible to say out loud but anyone paying attention could figure this out anyway.
This game is my absolute bottom priority.

I have feelings.
But while I have feelings, while I have vague sense of reads...I don't have direction.
Doing things requires direction.
And I have none. Every time we've had a replacement, there's been the hope that they would help me gain direction. Some did, like Touka helping. PantherPunt coming in was another good one. But by and large, they haven't changed things. There's a garbled mess of a game which I can't make heads or tails of. And I utterly lack the willpower to try. I've, flat-out, all-but given up.

I think you're scum.
I don't think PantherPunt is.
Other reads are negotiable, but weakly existent.
That's all I have, and it's all I can get with a royally-screwed-up gamestate.

I don't have anything to add.
I don't even know where I'd even begin to look.

[mhsmith0]

So here's the thing. I can't tell if this is you legitimately being honest about where you are wrt this game, or if this is you just using that as cover. And yes, I certainly agree that this seems to be your absolute bottom priority game. I can't tell if that's AI, but I don't particularly think that, if it's AI, it'd be town-indicative.

And as far as where to start goes... maybe ask questions? Maybe prod and poke people and see how they react? Maybe give more substance to some of your reads (even if they're town reads instead of scum reads, or make it clear why they're neutral). Like, if you're a wolf, things are going great for you, and if you're town, they're really not. And I look at you and you're not really doing anything to change the game state, and I simply struggle to see how that's a reasonable town perspective.

I also look at you, and you're just really far outside the range of what I'd expect from town!Ranger. What make me nervous here is that I feel like as a wolf you'd probably be more interested in pretending to be productive, but at the same time, I don't find it convincing that town!Ranger is truly this disinterested in the game state, or that town!Ranger would have pushed that bad case on pretty obv!town IV on day one (engaging w everyone, actively trying to game-solve, and you basically pounced on a fairly minor point), etc.

And the thing is, if you're town then we're probably going to lose because the momentum of the game state seems to be towards lynching us both in some order... and if I go down, I really don't see why I wouldn't want to take you down with me. Because I really don't see where the wolves are if you're town.

[mhsmith0]

PS

I did?
This is news to me.

I mean, I've never willingly left a game.
So I don't see how I could have said something like that, when my inclination is to not start.

that was based on

why was Alpaca disengaged town in that game (which was rather engaging), but didn't replace out of this game, which...well, I think you can check the number of replacements and game length to figure out why THIS game feels like the game you should have replaced out of. Yet you didn't. So the initial townread is gone, replaced by the paranoia that you stayed in this game because you were scum in the know. But that's a horrible reason, and one I also know isn't absolute. Kuroi, also from Stack The Deck, replaced out of it, yet in a similarly-disengaging game (Something_Smart's UPick), he didn't replace out...and was town there, so it's definitely not a hard-scumread and is literally the only possible doubt I have on you; there's nothing suspicious about your play otherwise.

that was based on your stated read of Alpaca on the basis of "why havne't you subbed out if you're disengaged". Given that you never replace out (and I don't think you'd bother lying about something that easily verifiable), though, I'll withdraw that point.

[Xkfyu]

Don't replace me. I'm here. Sorry, forgot to set V/LA for the weekend.

[Xkfyu]

I'll explain later.

I will look forward to it

Admittedly, I didn't have any solid reasoning. I just wanted to see how you'd react and see who would follow me.

DGB followed me, but has since moved away. I've been town reading her, so I'm not sure that that tells me anything.

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: AlpacaAlpaca

VOTE: BTD6_maker

I don't like the smith lynch, mostly because 2 (Titus and BTD) out of the 3 votes on him are in my lynch pool.

[Quaroath]

Titus and DGB have been prodded.

[Titus]

How did I get prodded here?

Why is Mhsmith not dead?

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: titus

[PantherPunt]

@DGB/Ranger, can you both get along? A wagon with the three of us on it would be awesome.

This sounds like you're reading them both as town. Town reads specific to them, or is it just others have moved higher on the suspect list? I'm especially curious about Ranger; if you're town reading her currently, what changed from D2?

I am.

You changed.

@Ranger, each one of you will only vote one of my two scumreads, which makes it hard to work with the both of you.

Titus/alpaca
Titus/btd6

Don't think it's Titus/xkfy

So everything says lynch Titus

If not Titus then the other common demoninator is smith. I've disliked smith EOD and early today but after looking at some other games I have a hard time believing his scum game has improved/changed this much