Newbie 1730 - To The North (Game Over)

[Transcend]

There's no chance that I'm town that correctly town reads you?

[Enefpe no Time]

Wjy on earth would the mod not send out a pm that the game started

[Enefpe no Time]

First page in joushi and innocent are scumreads

Joushi heavy

[Enefpe no Time]

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

try condensing your posts

I like this guy

[Enefpe no Time]

Skold is pretty town.

Throwing down on the ic. Claims to be "aggressive" at the start of the game; lots of talking not a whole lot of words; oddly even-keeled; will probaby make a rebuttal to this post with a wall and ask me if im a newb (i may even be accused of being antitown for going after the ic). He just smells funny. I dont like the cut of his jib. Lots of his posts smell like they have been crafted.

vote: innocentvillager

[Transcend]

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

try condensing your posts

I like this guy

I like you too

[innocentvillager]

Okay, before we talk about anything else:

Skold is pretty town.

How the hell did you get this? You're either a super-scumhunter, misguided, or scum. I don't see a single post of Skold's that is AI (Alignment indicative), given that they are ALL either RVS/contentless, or just talking about theory.

That is basically all Skold has done all day. Even I have done more than Skold by at least giving reads, helping out newbies to an extent, and asked some questions. We are still kind of in a weird RVS-to game day transition, so there's no way I'm going to be aggressive yet.

So please enlighten me as to why you are townreading Skold and scumreading me even though "I'm talking a lot but not saying much" or however your argument against me is phrased.

---

@Transcend I may have not made it very apparent, but I was asking you a question here. Can you answer it?

Anyways I actually agree more or less with all of IV's townreads thus far, however his vote on karnos looks a tad bit opportunistic as I feel karnos' post wasn't super alignment indicative.

It looks like you voted me for an unstated reason, but now you're justifying it here. What made my vote opportunistic? I'm not seeing it.

[Soula]

You should be paying attention to everyone.

Well of course. But some people stand out more than others. One thing I noticed from the one game I played is that one mafia player changed their style early on because they weren't used to the idea of being scum. I'm not sure if you are scum, but I'm going to keep you in mind depending on how you play and what happens. Maybe you are scum and maybe you aren't, but that might be a tell. I'll have to see how you play out...

As the game goes, the first few pages of a thread are usually dominated by "RVS", Random Voting Stuff. Typically nobody will ever have a super strong real scum read at this point, nonetheless it's an important part of the game. If you don't participate, then it stifles discussion and doesn't give as much stuff to read from to make more serious votes later in the game.

That said, there is sort of an oxymoron in the meta, as some players will scream loud and clear that you should NEVER vote someone unless you think they are scum. Taken to the extreme, that sort of thinking would seem to indicate that RVS is a bad idea, and you shouldn't participate in it, yet without going past the RVS stage there is very little to read anyone on.

That said, my personal perspective is that voting someone, whether town or scum, is a good thing early in the game, because you can get a wide range of reactions depending on how much pressure they feel. In some cases I'll even vote someone I *think* is town, because I want to confirm my thoughts. Perhaps ironically, voting for pressure doesn't provide any benefit at all if you admit you are actually just voting for pressure, so even in those cases I'm not going to limply vote and say something to undermine my attempt at creating pressure.

...hmm, all right, fair enough. I guess I just would prefer people had more reason to vote someone instead of just flat out voting them. I don't believe we need to vote people to get them talking at the start, but it's whatever I guess; doesn't matter as long as they talk and we don't prematurely vote.

ironstove is solid town, if he's mafia a big fat loss is something I endure this game.

Trying to pocket a new player already?

With that said: Don't claim your role unless you're at L-1 (1 vote away from being lynched). Especially if the vote is in RVS. None of the 3 votes on you were legitimate votes and now scum have a better idea on who the PR's (power roles i.e. non vanilla townies) are.

Scum read. A vote is still a vote and waiting to claim 1 before hammer is risky. Pushing town players to wait until 1 from hammer is scum because on the off chance that mafia haven't voted yet and can hammer in a lynch, they will and can blame the town players for starting the train and optimally get another mislynch set up.

Also, claiming VT is nowhere near as bad as claiming a PR. If I was a PR, I would still claim VT. If I was a VT, I would claim a PR in some situations to in order to bait a shot from scum. I very well can still be a PR or VT, so claiming VT is meaningless and is equivalent to stating that I'm simply 'not scum'.

I think I agree with this. If you're a PR and you think you might get targeted and lynched quickly, it's better not to wait.

Disagree on claiming a PR role though. That just adds confusion to Town and the other PR. If you claim PR and you aren't one, the real PR Town will think you're suspicious, unless they have a way to verify if you are Town or not. And since the setup is random there's no way to guarantee a setup where you can promise they will check you and make sure you're Town first. It seems like it could very easily end up in lynching you if the real Town PR claims and presumes you mafia because you claimed. So not sure why you would say that; can you explain why that's a good idea to confuse Town like that?

But anyway, how the heck is claiming VT a meaningful gesture? VT stands for Vanilla Town, yes? If so, then why the heck wouldn't anyone claim to be Town? Just seems silly to say that. Like...it doesn't mean anything really.

[ironstove]

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

try condensing your posts

I like this guy

I like you too

I have a gut feeling that 1/2 or 2/2 of the players here are scum. I can see someone as a scum player writing this post sarcastically.

There's no chance that I'm town that correctly town reads you?

You sound nervous and you're deflecting the questions by implying I'm mafia for asking them... 100% scum.

[ironstove]

I think I agree with this. If you're a PR and you think you might get targeted and lynched quickly, it's better not to wait.

Disagree on claiming a PR role though. That just adds confusion to Town and the other PR. If you claim PR and you aren't one, the real PR Town will think you're suspicious, unless they have a way to verify if you are Town or not. And since the setup is random there's no way to guarantee a setup where you can promise they will check you and make sure you're Town first. It seems like it could very easily end up in lynching you if the real Town PR claims and presumes you mafia because you claimed. So not sure why you would say that; can you explain why that's a good idea to confuse Town like that?

But anyway, how the heck is claiming VT a meaningful gesture? VT stands for Vanilla Town, yes? If so, then why the heck wouldn't anyone claim to be Town? Just seems silly to say that. Like...it doesn't mean anything really.

Fake claiming a PR as a VT might seem anti-town, but I think it's a useful tool for validating other people's claims, taking pressure off yourself, and granting space for the actual PRs. I'm not saying this is the play and you should do it every game, but there are times when it is right. A good town player with a PR will know better than to CC because thinking a little further about it, it would be a bad mafia play to blindly claim a PR that can so easily be CC'd because even if you convince the town to mislynch the PR, you are gonna be lynched immediately after.

I don't mind people fake-claiming PRs if they know what they're doing and they have the capability to be town read afterwards.

The reasoning behind not claiming VT early is because other players said it helps mafia find the actual PRs, but I made the case that even as a PR I would still claim VT, so it's a meaningless claim in the end. I don't think mafia should be the only ones lying to town, sometimes its in the interest of town to have a player tell a lie to try to apply pressure, set up a play, or fish for/validate another player's information, my 2 cents on this.

Apologies for being long-winded, I normally don't take the time to discuss mafia theory like this but since this is a noobie game I figure I should explain myself a little better although I think doing such a thing is also extremely counter-productive to town as it draws attention away from the scum hunt... I would normally view this as a subtle scum tell by trying to incite meta discussions, but I'll lay back for now since we're still only on page 3

[ironstove]

VOTE: Transcend

[Transcend]

bad dog

iv, your vote on karnos was stupid because you voted him only because of his rvs vote which imo is NAI. i think you were grasping straws and made an opportunistic scum-jump.

[Transcend]

also iv my vote hasn't wavered because you seem mad that EnT townreads Skold. I agree that Skod shouldn't be townread, but your tone sounds like you're upset he has a correct read.

[Joushi]

First page in joushi and innocent are scumreads

Joushi heavy

Care to elaborate? You made fairly sweeping accusations in 54 without a lot of quotes, and specifically I really dislike

will probaby make a rebuttal to this post with a wall and ask me if im a newb (i may even be accused of being antitown for going after the ic).

because it just feels like saying what you're doing CAN'T be newbish or anti-town, even if it is. If/when someone does accuse you of that, you'll just go "hah, but it's not because I pointed it out first."

[Joushi]

Also yay thanks for joining us. Hopefully Mori will pop in soon as well!

Also @Transcend and @Innocent Villager, might've missed it, but I'm curious as to how you guys pegged @Soula as town? What did you see that I didn't in 18?

The reasoning behind not claiming VT early is because other players said it helps mafia find the actual PRs, but I made the case that even as a PR I would still claim VT, so it's a meaningless claim in the end. I don't think mafia should be the only ones lying to town, sometimes its in the interest of town to have a player tell a lie to try to apply pressure, set up a play, or fish for/validate another player's information, my 2 cents on this.

I'm also gonna be honest, this feels like an ex-post facto explanation.

---

My reads in order from scummiest to least scummy:
Transcend
EnT
Soula/Skold/Karnos (not enough to read imo), IV
Stove

Not included:
Mori due to nothing to go off of

[Skold]

Skold is pretty town.

VOTE: Enefpe no Time

[Transcend]

i agree him townreading you was weird but look at iv's tone when he acknowledged him townreading you. he sounds fairly upset. doesn't he?

[Transcend]

Also @Transcend and @Innocent Villager, might've missed it, but I'm curious as to how you guys pegged @Soula as town? What did you see that I didn't in 18?

Tone for right now. Not my strongest tr tho, just an initial tr.

[Xalxe]

Vote Count 1.3

Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be cowboys. Show them pictures of cows when they’re young and administer brief electrical shocks.

Transcend (2)

: Joushi, ironstove

innocentvillager (2)

: Transcend, Enefpe no Time

ironstove (1)

: karnos

karnos (1)

: innocentvillager

Enefpe no Time

(1): Skold

Not Voting

: Mori, Soula

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-08-14 09:17:39)

Mori has 24 hours to confirm or be replaced.

[Transcend]

How the hell did you get this? You're either a super-scumhunter, misguided, or scum. I don't see a single post of Skold's that is AI (Alignment indicative), given that they are ALL either RVS/contentless, or just talking about theory.

That is basically all Skold has done all day. Even I have done more than Skold by at least giving reads, helping out newbies to an extent, and asked some questions. We are still kind of in a weird RVS-to game day transition, so there's no way I'm going to be aggressive yet.

So please enlighten me as to why you are townreading Skold and scumreading me even though "I'm talking a lot but not saying much" or however your argument against me is phrased.

This screams of him getting mad that he TR's Skold. WAHHH YOU TR SKOLD WHY DONT YOU TR ME. IVE DONE MORE THAN SKOLD WAHHHHHH/

his 56 was a scumpost imo. among his other posts.

[Skold]

It was a bad post yes, but explain why it's a scumpost. I've seen even experienced town play like this before.

[Transcend]

Okay scumpost might not be the right word to use, but it looks pretty damn scummy.

[Skold]

That's the problem with a lot of games I'm looking at. People confuse bad/scummy with an actual indication of someone being scum. D1 might as well be random so I usually don't mind but most tells I'm seeing being used have no relationship with finding scummers.

[Transcend]

Do you think the dude (I forgot his name) townreading you is a scumclaim??

I don't think it's downright a scumclaim. At most I'm surprised at his townread on you since you didn't bring much to the table.

I just found it super weird and I do have my eye on him, but I also have it on IV.

[Enefpe no Time]

Innocent's reaction to me scumreading him is to weirdly focus on the fact that i townread skold. Evasive, tactical behavior. This dude is scum.

Skold is very non constructive in his tone, seems genuineish, hence town.

Joushi and innocent seem to be having weird interactions also